2875 réponses à ce sujet

[ransompendragon]

Whatever I think of DA2 I have to thank David Gaider and John Epler. Well done comments. Sitting on the side of the priveledged class I know some of my prejudices -- but I am sure I am blind to many others.

Also, thanks to some of the forumites for your thoughtful posts. Interesting what happens with "touchy" topics. My opinion? I hate getting rivalry points too. But it happens and it is part of what makes the game a game.

[MaximusPhoenix]

I didn't see that the OP wrote back again after David's initial response. From everything John said above, is the OP still trying to convince that "straight males" are on the top of the list and most deserving of options that cater to their(his) wants?

And to the OP: why would they market a game to one demographic only? When I saw advertisments for DA2, I never thought to myself "this game looks like it is for X or Y sexuality". I'm at a loss to understand the OP's constant persistance on this issue.

Bottom line, equality is good, in every aspect of life.

Modifié par MaximusPhoenix, 26 mars 2011 - 08:29 .

[Taura-Tierno]

Game development (parts of it, at least) is as much an art as novel writing or music production. The actual economical aspects might not be much "art", but the writing surely is, as is the graphical design and the audio production that comes with all of that.

[Seifz]

John,

The romances in every BioWare game seem tacked on, irrelevant, and generally not important. I understand that you want them to be optional content (at least, I remember DG saying as much), but they would have so much more potential if they were more central to the story. Can we see more of that in DA3 or whatever it is you all make next? These rushed romances where the end goal is always sex are kind of lame.

Anyway, DG also once said that they would never make a strictly gay romance option because it wouldn't appeal to enough people. Think you can change his mind on that one? I understand that resources are limited and that you'd like to appeal to as many players as possible, but it seems very strange to play in a world where there's never a strictly gay LI. And we've had strictly straight LIs, so why not? Besides, the crying on the forums alone would make it all worth it.

[Taura-Tierno]

JohnEpler wrote ...

What we can do is make sure that we're promoting a message of equality, that we believe everyone's entitled to live and love in the same way.

And for that, I thank you.

[sleepyowlet]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Game development (parts of it, at least) is as much an art as novel writing or music production. The actual economical aspects might not be much "art", but the writing surely is, as is the graphical design and the audio production that comes with all of that.

Yes. And anyone who thinks that any piece of art has no economical aspects has never really talked to an artist who actually has to earn their money with their art.

[moilami]

sleepyowlet wrote...

moilami wrote...

I would not blame the Republic of that. Stuff could had happened without it and most certainly would had happened and has happened. In my opinion Republic is an exam which should start a dialogue inside you saying "WTF". 

Oh, I did go WTF when I discovered Plato. And this Ideal State gives me the creeps, just like the Qunari do. Thing is, a lot of people didn't go WTF and went and tried to do what he wrote... or at least really liked the idea.

I think it puzzled Plato. 

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Seifz wrote...

John,

The romances in every BioWare game seem tacked on, irrelevant, and generally not important. I understand that you want them to be optional content (at least, I remember DG saying as much), but they would have so much more potential if they were more central to the story. Can we see more of that in DA3 or whatever it is you all make next? These rushed romances where the end goal is always sex are kind of lame.

I'm with you on these.  I think the perceived imperative to shoehorn a sexual act into every relationship before the big fight causes the overall storytelling to suffer.  I also think there are some times where the "romance" gets in the way of more important compassionate human interaction (as with Jack in ME2).

[LJScribes]

Here's the way I see it: Aside from Isabella who was Bi in the first game, depending on what gender the PC is the other LI's sexual preference changes. When you are a male Anders is gay, Merril is straight, and Fenris is straight if you don't romance him and gay if you do. If the PC is female Anders is straight, Merril is gay, and Fenris is straight.

Isabella is the only bi character through any playthrough. You don't see any other character during a single playthrough express any interest in someone outside there decided sexual preference. People are only calling the LI's Bisexual because you are able to court them in ALTERNATIVE playthroughs.

[moilami]

Gadarr wrote...

moilami wrote...
Well majority are concerned of the Rivalry points because majority are not RPers. But a little minority of RPers are concerned of Anders.

I would prefer there would be no rivalry/friendship points popping visible because it is unrealistical and gives too much information. I would prefer there to be some kind of other way to show the reactions. Like little sad face popping if the NPC was perceived to be little sad. And if the NPC held his poker face there would pop nothing, however that would not mean that significant change in rivalry/friendship scale did not happen.

It could help people to make RP decisions too instead of power play decisions. The latter I though called unconcscious brown licker RP. Or alternatively the player becoming a companion to NPC. Role switch.

You know, I might be inclined to believe that if people would complain over every other incidence where you can get rivalry without knowing before. For instance, when helping some guy 'for free', you get a rivalry hit from Isabela. Do you see people moaning? Getting all riled up? Nope. It might have been mentioned a couple of times, but people don't really care. It has also been pointed out that you're only going to get hit on by Anders if you're picking diplomatic dialogue options and thus can avoid rivalry altogether (or so I've read, can't remember him proposing anything to my Hawke), so you could just, you know, reload. Problem solved, as with every other unwanted friendship or rivalry gain. Even if you do get rivalry no matter what, it's not as if it would ruin the friendship path, right?

But... people don't do that, do they? So, no, this is definitely not about roleplaying (how is it roleplaying to forbid other characters their beliefs and orientations on a metagame level?)  or rivalry points. It's hilarious really that this thread is nearing 70 pages over ... yeah, what exactly? Pure hypocrisy.

PS: I do like your idea though.

Good points. I think the rivalry complaints are a secret way to say people don't like if Anders hit them. However people have the right to not like if someone hits them. People have the rights for their sexuality. Gays have this right, heteros have this right, and bis have this right.

Heteros are actually very picky and can have very strick standards on what kind of heteros they accept can hit them. I am very sure bis have too as well as gays have. You know, you all are just people. That's why I see so much hypocricy that my hypocricy meter is topped all the time in these threads.

Regarding RP I have seen years ago it is minority "freaky nerd stuff" and everything I have seen has told me it will remain so.


Edit: And oh yeah since we have this new technology making it possible to animate face expressions it would be best if NPCs would show those face expressions and other body language instead of numbers popping here and there.

Modifié par moilami, 26 mars 2011 - 09:04 .

[Tirigon]

Stop hating on me just because video games aren´t art.

thing, is, video games are done for money. Nothing that is created to earn money with it can be art.

So, in conclusion, video games can´t be art.

[AngelicMachinery]

LJScribes wrote...

Here's the way I see it: Aside from Isabella who was Bi in the first game, depending on what gender the PC is the other LI's sexual preference changes. When you are a male Anders is gay, Merril is straight, and Fenris is straight if you don't romance him and gay if you do. If the PC is female Anders is straight, Merril is gay, and Fenris is straight.

Isabella is the only bi character through any playthrough. You don't see any other character during a single playthrough express any interest in someone outside there decided sexual preference. People are only calling the LI's Bisexual because you are able to court them in ALTERNATIVE playthroughs.

In DA2,  she mostly seems interested in men with big "boats" unless you romance her as a women.  Or, so it seemed in my playthrough.

[Seifz]

Tirigon wrote...

Stop hating on me just because video games aren´t art.

thing, is, video games are done for money. Nothing that is created to earn money with it can be art.

So, in conclusion, video games can´t be art.

Um.

Films, television, music, theater, ...

[moilami]

People here are not passionate for art so this thread wond go into 50 pages "what is art" discussion.


Edit: 50 pages of very heated discussion of what is art lol.

Modifié par moilami, 26 mars 2011 - 09:06 .

[sleepyowlet]

Tirigon wrote...

Stop hating on me just because video games aren´t art.

thing, is, video games are done for money. Nothing that is created to earn money with it can be art.

So, in conclusion, video games can´t be art.

Uh.. so the paintings in the Sixtine chapel aren't art? Because Michelangelo earned his money with painting them. Mozart's Requiem isn't art? Because that was a commissioned work he was being paid for.

I could go on. Your views are hypocritical.

[catabuca]

Tirigon wrote...

Stop hating on me just because video games aren´t art.

thing, is, video games are done for money. Nothing that is created to earn money with it can be art.

So, in conclusion, video games can´t be art.

You do NOT want to get into the art/economics debate. Go read some Bourdieu and get back to me.

[moilami]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

LJScribes wrote...

Here's the way I see it: Aside from Isabella who was Bi in the first game, depending on what gender the PC is the other LI's sexual preference changes. When you are a male Anders is gay, Merril is straight, and Fenris is straight if you don't romance him and gay if you do. If the PC is female Anders is straight, Merril is gay, and Fenris is straight.

Isabella is the only bi character through any playthrough. You don't see any other character during a single playthrough express any interest in someone outside there decided sexual preference. People are only calling the LI's Bisexual because you are able to court them in ALTERNATIVE playthroughs.

In DA2,  she mostly seems interested in men with big "boats" unless you romance her as a women.  Or, so it seemed in my playthrough.

That comment, which I haven't seen by the way, has left me puzzled did she mean captains or some other "equipment"? 

[sleepyowlet]

moilami wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

LJScribes wrote...

Here's the way I see it: Aside from Isabella who was Bi in the first game, depending on what gender the PC is the other LI's sexual preference changes. When you are a male Anders is gay, Merril is straight, and Fenris is straight if you don't romance him and gay if you do. If the PC is female Anders is straight, Merril is gay, and Fenris is straight.

Isabella is the only bi character through any playthrough. You don't see any other character during a single playthrough express any interest in someone outside there decided sexual preference. People are only calling the LI's Bisexual because you are able to court them in ALTERNATIVE playthroughs.

In DA2,  she mostly seems interested in men with big "boats" unless you romance her as a women.  Or, so it seemed in my playthrough.

That comment, which I haven't seen by the way, has left me puzzled did she mean captains or some other "equipment"? 

Oh, she was dreaming about an actual boat. With strapping male sailors to please her. And that happened in my one and only playthrough, which was as Lady Hawke. Isabella: Bi. Definitely. And a Nymphomaniac.

Modifié par sleepyowlet, 26 mars 2011 - 09:13 .

[catabuca]

JohnEpler wrote...

It's possible to do both. Many people are quite comfortable playing a game with same-sex romance options without themselves being of that particular sexual orientation. And we're never going to make everyone happy - if we could create a game that pleased every single person who played video games, I'd be typing this post from my third mansion in the Bahamas. But what we can do is allow as many people of different sexual orientations as we can to enjoy our games. What we can do is make sure that we're promoting a message of equality, that we believe everyone's entitled to live and love in the same way. And what we can do is recognize that even as we're making video games, what we choose to include and not include is in itself a social message, whether we intend for it to be or not.

Thank you for such a detailed reply to the OP's concerns. The paragraph I quoted in particular highlights for me why I'll continue to support BioWare in the future. 

I can't adequately express how I feel about your post without gushing, so I'll shut up now.

[Tirigon]

catabuca wrote...

You do NOT want to get into the art/economics debate. Go read some Bourdieu and get back to me.

True enough. It would be pointless. People are always quick to consider mainstream things art.

[lilliful]

JohnEpler wrote...

INSERT AWESOME HERE.

I cannot describe exactly how happy it makes me to see responses like this one, and from Gaider earlier, to these kinds of threads.

It seems like day after day, the forums are endlessly trolled with new "I can't believe you'd make all the love interests bisexual" with a frequency that I'm sure out-numbers the actual number of people who are upset with the decision. I just don't understand why it brings out all this anger in people. As a gay person, I play games with straight romances all the time and it never bothers me, disgusts me, makes me feel like a character can't be related to, etc... I recognize straight privilige on the whole and wish it weren't so, but it doesn't mean I loathe any one game as a vehicle for the straight agenda, just like this game isn't some vehicle for the gay agenda. It's not even like there ARE no straight romances in this game. It's not even like romance is the POINT of this game. Every day I see comments like the ones made by the OP, I feel more and more disheartened that maybe the world isn't even at the point of being able to accept one game that allows PCs of any sexuality to pursue any character as a small, completely avoidable story mechanic, and that maybe now it will never happen again, and will swing hard in the opposite direction alla ME2. Comments like the ones made by Epler, though, make me feel restored hope that Dragon Age, as a series, will continue to give people CHOICES. <3

Modifié par lilliful, 26 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[Centauri2002]

Tirigon wrote...

Stop hating on me just because video games aren´t art.

thing, is, video games are done for money. Nothing that is created to earn money with it can be art.

So, in conclusion, video games can´t be art.

Can you speak for every video game creator? I've created my own independent games in the past, purely because I wanted to tell a story and this was the best format for those stories. There are many other developers who do the same. Just as there are many of people who are purely in it for the money. That's the same for artists though.

I can accept that you feel this way about games but stop trying to insist that your opinion is fact. Different people see the world in different ways. And art is one of the most subjective things out there.

Modifié par centauri2002, 26 mars 2011 - 09:19 .

[catabuca]

lilliful wrote...

I cannot describe exactly how happy it makes me to see responses like this one, and from Gaider earlier, to these kinds of threads.

It seems like day after day, the forums are endlessly trolled with new "I can't believe you'd make all the love interests bisexual" with a frequency that I'm sure out-numbers the actual number of people who are upset with the decision. I just don't understand why it brings out all this anger in people. As a gay person, I play games with straight romances all the time and it never bothers me, disgusts me, makes me feel like a character can't be related to, etc... I recognize straight privilige on the whole and wish it weren't so, but it doesn't mean I loathe any one game as a vehicle for the straight agenda, just like this game isn't some vehicle for the gay agenda. It's not even like there ARE no straight romances in this game. It's not even like romance is the POINT of this game. Every day I see comments like the ones made by the OP, I feel more and more disheartened that maybe the world isn't even at the point of being able to accept one game that allows PCs of any sexuality to pursue any character as a small, completely avoidable story mechanic, and that maybe now it will never happen again, and will swing hard in the opposite direction alla ME2. Comments like the ones made by Epler, though, make me feel restored hope that Dragon Age, as a series, will continue to give people CHOICES. <3

Much love. <3

[moilami]

sleepyowlet wrote...

moilami wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

LJScribes wrote...

Here's the way I see it: Aside from Isabella who was Bi in the first game, depending on what gender the PC is the other LI's sexual preference changes. When you are a male Anders is gay, Merril is straight, and Fenris is straight if you don't romance him and gay if you do. If the PC is female Anders is straight, Merril is gay, and Fenris is straight.

Isabella is the only bi character through any playthrough. You don't see any other character during a single playthrough express any interest in someone outside there decided sexual preference. People are only calling the LI's Bisexual because you are able to court them in ALTERNATIVE playthroughs.

In DA2,  she mostly seems interested in men with big "boats" unless you romance her as a women.  Or, so it seemed in my playthrough.

That comment, which I haven't seen by the way, has left me puzzled did she mean captains or some other "equipment"? 

Oh, she was dreaming about an actual boat. With strapping male sailors to please her. And that happened in my one and only playthrough, which was as Lady Hawke. Isabella: Bi. Definitely. And a Nymphomaniac.

Well, too bad I can't stand the combat in DA2 and after playing the prologue and a little bit of chapter 1 in the Witcher the lack of detail and immersion in DA2 has grown almost a light year long when compared to DA2 

Make skip the combat button!

But as for now, I am off to wait to meet, hmm, Triss again.