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Dragon Age 2 Lead Writer Blasts Homophobic Fan


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#1676
Tirigon

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centauri2002 wrote...


Can you speak for every video game creator? I've created my own independent games in the past, purely because I wanted to tell a story and this was the best format for those stories. There are many other developers who do the same. Just as there are many of people who are purely in it for the money. That's the same for artists though.

I can accept that you feel this way about games but stop trying to insist that your opinion is fact. Different people see the world in different ways. And art is one of the most subjective things out there. :)


Everyone is entitled to his / her opinion. But not all opinions are right.

#1677
Seifz

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Tirigon wrote...

catabuca wrote...

You do NOT want to get into the art/economics debate. Go read some Bourdieu and get back to me.


True enough. It would be pointless. People are always quick to consider mainstream things art.


Oh, you're a hipster.  That explains your ridiculous opinion of what constitutes art, then.

#1678
John Epler

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Much as the majority of us probably have strong opinions on videogames as art, that's not on-topic, so let's nip that discussion in the bud.

#1679
Centauri2002

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Tirigon wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...


Can you speak for every video game creator? I've created my own independent games in the past, purely because I wanted to tell a story and this was the best format for those stories. There are many other developers who do the same. Just as there are many of people who are purely in it for the money. That's the same for artists though.

I can accept that you feel this way about games but stop trying to insist that your opinion is fact. Different people see the world in different ways. And art is one of the most subjective things out there. :)


Everyone is entitled to his / her opinion. But not all opinions are right.


Right and wrong are also subjective so, yes, you would be correct. ;)

#1680
Tirigon

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centauri2002 wrote...

Right and wrong are also subjective so, yes, you would be correct. ;)


See? I am a very agreeeable person, we can always come on even ground:kissing:

#1681
MaximusPhoenix

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JohnEpler wrote...

Much as the majority of us probably have strong opinions on videogames as art, that's not on-topic, so let's nip that discussion in the bud.


This is off-topic too, sorry, but since you read this thread and no one(fans or mods) replied to my other thread about where I can get loading screen art, I would much appreicate if you can tell me if there is any way(even if I have to pay) if I can get a copy of the loading screen with the creepy deers with glowing eyes? :bandit:or send me a PM possibly instead of replying here? Thx.

Modifié par MaximusPhoenix, 26 mars 2011 - 09:33 .


#1682
Centauri2002

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Tirigon wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Right and wrong are also subjective so, yes, you would be correct. ;)


See? I am a very agreeeable person, we can always come on even ground:kissing:


Of course. :3

But to steer us back on topic, I have a general question for people: Putting the way romances are implemented aside, are there actually many people against inclusivity? 

#1683
ciaweth

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Sweet, raging christ. Are we still on this? Is this still a thing? Talk about overreaction to pixels...

#1684
Tirigon

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ciaweth wrote...

Sweet, raging christ. Are we still on this? Is this still a thing? Talk about overreaction to pixels...


It is not an overreaction, as the pixels are just the fuse. the real topic is about tolerance towards people of a different sexual orientation.

#1685
ciaweth

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Tirigon wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Sweet, raging christ. Are we still on this? Is this still a thing? Talk about overreaction to pixels...


It is not an overreaction, as the pixels are just the fuse. the real topic is about tolerance towards people of a different sexual orientation.

The overreaction in question was the "wahhh, a guy who doesn't really exist flirted with my manpixels."  I got no problem with tolerance, I just can't understand why people are still flipping out.

#1686
IncendiarySheep

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I suggest that the reason some 'straight male' gamers feel so alienated is that we are simply not used to seeing equal billing of active female or gay characters in any media.  Comparisons of numbers don't matter - it's a perception issue.  Perception is a powerful thing.  I get that having an equal split is going to be confronting to those gamers who are more use to having majority straight males and the token woman or gay person.  I wouldn't be surprised if some people decide that the game is not for them on that basis.  However, I'm personally very grateful to Bioware for making games I - a female gamer geek since she got the red-booked basic D&D set for a birthday in 1984  - can so readily feel a part of.

Until recently, female characters have generally held passive or support roles in stories.  Around the late 70s, you began to get the odd active female protagonist, but she would be deliberately exceptional.  She never, for example, had female friends.  Moreover, her life was almost invaribly tired to the central male character's, usually as the love interest.  As a fangirl and lover of sci fi, I grew up surrounded by the message that most women don't count, and to be anyone of valuable you needed to be perfect and beautiful enough to attract the dominant male.

Growing up, I simply accepted that if I wanted to roleplay on the computer, I had to play a man.  Space Quest, Police Quest, Ultima, Wing Commander - the list goes on.  I never minded, because I didn't have any option.  I do remember my incredible excitement when one of the King's Quests finally had a plyable female lead.  But I also remember how crushed I was when my brother - my partner in gaming - refused to play because he "was no girl".   I was devastated, but I accepted it was more proof of the  old maxim that women will read books about men and women, but men will only read books about men.  In such circumstances, it makes commercial sense to publish books about men.  And to do the same with movies.  

However, the side-effect of this is that many women are simply not going to be very interested in yet another medium that offers nothing more than subsidiary status.  No wonder there are so few girl computer rpgers!  Indeed, I'd suggest some women who are inclined toward the roleplaying feel positively alienated by many games out there.  I mean, I liked the Witcher as a game, but I actually felt like I wasn't ... well, welcome, playing it.   It is a game for men.  That's cool - if the designers want to limit their market then that's their choice (and undoubtedly a wise one, given their limited resources).  But I thank Bioware for being one of the leaders in making a game that I can also comfortably play.  The fact that I can play as someone who has some connection to my real self (albeit a very tenuous one) means I will invest a huge amount of time and money in this world. Probably a disproportionate amount of money, as I don't have the huge pile of alternative games that most male gamers do.

(I should note, too, that I don't get the same feeling of alienation playing, sat, the Call of Duty games, or Halo and Deep Space.  But these games were never about roleplaying or choice - they are about a central character who happens (for story and commercial reasons) to be male).    

In saying that, I can accept that some men would feel alienated by a 50/50 male/female character split and the inclusion of gay characters.  It is confronting because it is different, and many people don't like difference (heck, look at the debate over the system changes for DAO to DA2 for proof of that!).  But men (and women) who genuinely do not want to play with female companions, or gay companions have a huge variety of games to choose from.  I have Bioware games (and a few others).  And my love and loyalty knows no bounds as a result.

Modifié par IncendiarySheep, 26 mars 2011 - 09:50 .


#1687
sleepyowlet

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ciaweth wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Sweet, raging christ. Are we still on this? Is this still a thing? Talk about overreaction to pixels...


It is not an overreaction, as the pixels are just the fuse. the real topic is about tolerance towards people of a different sexual orientation.

The overreaction in question was the "wahhh, a guy who doesn't really exist flirted with my manpixels."  I got no problem with tolerance, I just can't understand why people are still flipping out.


Neither can I. Seriously, people are more upset when some other manpixels (I love that word, thank you) flirt with theirs than an angry Qunari hacking and slashing at them. Or even killing them. Uh... huh?
Being flirted at by Anders is a fate worse than death???

#1688
AltitudeNYC

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We need to be tolerant of other peoples views. To be completely honest however, I must admit, there is more in your face homosexuality in Dragon Age II than I've actually experienced personally in real life. . . and this is coming from a New York City native.

#1689
ciaweth

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sleepyowlet wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Sweet, raging christ. Are we still on this? Is this still a thing? Talk about overreaction to pixels...


It is not an overreaction, as the pixels are just the fuse. the real topic is about tolerance towards people of a different sexual orientation.

The overreaction in question was the "wahhh, a guy who doesn't really exist flirted with my manpixels."  I got no problem with tolerance, I just can't understand why people are still flipping out.


Neither can I. Seriously, people are more upset when some other manpixels (I love that word, thank you) flirt with theirs than an angry Qunari hacking and slashing at them. Or even killing them. Uh... huh?
Being flirted at by Anders is a fate worse than death???

Also, this whole out-flipping needs a #firstworldproblem hashtag.

#1690
ciaweth

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AltitudeNYC wrote...

We need to be tolerant of other peoples views. To be completely honest however, I must admit, there is more in your face homosexuality in Dragon Age II than I've actually experienced personally in real life. . . and this is coming from a New York City native.

"In-your-face homosexuality?"  Seriously?  I grew up in Oregon, lived in Minnesota for 15 years, and now live in Wisconsin, and I've seen far more than this.  If you really live in NYC, I call exaggeration.  It's not like Anders whipped it out and slapped you in the face with it.

...Now THERE'S an image.  Huh.

#1691
Tirigon

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sleepyowlet wrote...

Being flirted at by Anders is a fate worse than death???


Better a blade in the heart than a dong in the butt!!!!

Someone should make a motivational of it - I can´t, I haven´t pirated photoshop yet.B)

#1692
the_one_54321

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Tirigon wrote...
It is not an overreaction, as the pixels are just the fuse. the real topic is about tolerance towards people of a different sexual orientation.

No it's not. The issue has nothing to do with sexuality, but only that the options were presented badly. It's another example of cut corners in the game.

#1693
Centauri2002

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AltitudeNYC wrote...

We need to be tolerant of other peoples views. To be completely honest however, I must admit, there is more in your face homosexuality in Dragon Age II than I've actually experienced personally in real life. . . and this is coming from a New York City native.


I have to put up with in-your-face heterosexuality every single day so forgive me if I'm not sympathetic to that. ;)

However, I can understand that someone unused to seeing it will be surprised, if not shocked. That's perfectly fine. But, what I don't get is why someone would want to force those options out of the game because they believe only their demographic should be catered to. That's just beyond me. >.>

#1694
c3701

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IncendiarySheep wrote...

I suggest that the reason some 'straight male' gamers feel so alienated is that we are simply not used to seeing equal billing of active female or gay characters in any media.  Comparisons of numbers don't matter - it's a perception issue.  Perception is a powerful thing.  I get that having an equal split is going to be confronting to those gamers who are more use to having majority straight males and the token woman or gay person.  I wouldn't be surprised if some people decide that the game is not for them on that basis.  However, I'm personally very grateful to Bioware for making games I - a female gamer geek since she got the red-booked basic D&D set for a birthday in 1984  - can so readily feel a part of.

Until recently, female characters have generally held passive or support roles in stories.  Around the late 70s, you began to get the odd active female protagonist, but she would be deliberately exceptional.  She never, for example, had female friends.  Moreover, her life was almost invaribly tired to the central male character's, usually as the love interest.  As a fangirl and lover of sci fi, I grew up surrounded by the message that most women don't count, and to be anyone of valuable you needed to be perfect and beautiful enough to attract the dominant male.

Growing up, I simply accepted that if I wanted to roleplay on the computer, I had to play a man.  Space Quest, Police Quest, Ultima, Wing Commander - the list goes on.  I never minded, because I didn't have any option.  I do remember my incredible excitement when one of the King's Quests finally had a plyable female lead.  But I also remember how crushed I was when my brother - my partner in gaming - refused to play because he "was no girl".   I was devastated, but I accepted it was more proof of the  old maxim that women will read books about men and women, but men will only read books about men.  In such circumstances, it makes commercial sense to publish books about men.  And to do the same with movies.  

However, the side-effect of this is that many women are simply not going to be very interested in yet another medium that offers nothing more than subsidiary status.  No wonder there are so few girl computer rpgers!  Indeed, I'd suggest some women who are inclined toward the roleplaying feel positively alienated by many games out there.  I mean, I liked the Witcher as a game, but I actually felt like I wasn't ... well, welcome, playing it.   It is a game for men.  That's cool - if the designers want to limit their market then that's their choice (and undoubtedly a wise one, given their limited resources).  But I thank Bioware for being one of the leaders in making a game that I can also comfortably play.  The fact that I can play as someone who has some connection to my real self (albeit a very tenuous one) means I will invest a huge amount of time and money in this world. Probably a disproportionate amount of money, as I don't have the huge pile of alternative games that most male gamers do.

(I should note, too, that I don't get the same feeling of alienation playing, sat, the Call of Duty games, or Halo and Deep Space.  But these games were never about roleplaying or choice - they are about a central character who happens (for story and commercial reasons) to be male).    

In saying that, I can accept that some men would feel alienated by a 50/50 male/female character split and the inclusion of gay characters.  It is confronting because it is different, and many people don't like difference (heck, look at the debate over the system changes for DAO to DA2 for proof of that!).  But men (and women) who genuinely do not want to play with female companions, or gay companions have a huge variety of games to choose from.  I have Bioware games (and a few others).  And my love and loyalty knows no bounds as a result.



Eloquently put.  Now go play The Witcher and like it! :P

#1695
sleepyowlet

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IncendiarySheep wrote...

I suggest that the reason some 'straight male' gamers feel so alienated is that we are simply not used to seeing equal billing of active female or gay characters in any media.  Comparisons of numbers don't matter - it's a perception issue.  Perception is a powerful thing.  I get that having an equal split is going to be confronting to those gamers who are more use to having majority straight males and the token woman or gay person.  I wouldn't be surprised if some people decide that the game is not for them on that basis.  However, I'm personally very grateful to Bioware for making games I - a female gamer geek since she got the red-booked basic D&D set for a birthday in 1984  - can so readily feel a part of.

Until recently, female characters have generally held passive or support roles in stories.  Around the late 70s, you began to get the odd active female protagonist, but she would be deliberately exceptional.  She never, for example, had female friends.  Moreover, her life was almost invaribly tired to the central male character's, usually as the love interest.  As a fangirl and lover of sci fi, I grew up surrounded by the message that most women don't count, and to be anyone of valuable you needed to be perfect and beautiful enough to attract the dominant male.

Growing up, I simply accepted that if I wanted to roleplay on the computer, I had to play a man.  Space Quest, Police Quest, Ultima, Wing Commander - the list goes on.  I never minded, because I didn't have any option.  I do remember my incredible excitement when one of the King's Quests finally had a plyable female lead.  But I also remember how crushed I was when my brother - my partner in gaming - refused to play because he "was no girl".   I was devastated, but I accepted it was more proof of the  old maxim that women will read books about men and women, but men will only read books about men.  In such circumstances, it makes commercial sense to publish books about men.  And to do the same with movies.  

However, the side-effect of this is that many women are simply not going to be very interested in yet another medium that offers nothing more than subsidiary status.  No wonder there are so few girl computer rpgers!  Indeed, I'd suggest some women who are inclined toward the roleplaying feel positively alienated by many games out there.  I mean, I liked the Witcher as a game, but I actually felt like I wasn't ... well, welcome, playing it.   It is a game for men.  That's cool - if the designers want to limit their market then that's their choice (and undoubtedly a wise one, given their limited resources).  But I thank Bioware for being one of the leaders in making a game that I can also comfortably play.  The fact that I can play as someone who has some connection to my real self (albeit a very tenuous one) means I will invest a huge amount of time and money in this world. Probably a disproportionate amount of money, as I don't have the huge pile of alternative games that most male gamers do.

(I should note, too, that I don't get the same feeling of alienation playing, sat, the Call of Duty games, or Halo and Deep Space.  But these games were never about roleplaying or choice - they are about a central character who happens (for story and commercial reasons) to be male).    

In saying that, I can accept that some men would feel alienated by a 50/50 male/female character split and the inclusion of gay characters.  It is confronting because it is different, and many people don't like difference (heck, look at the debate over the system changes for DAO to DA2 for proof of that!).  But men (and women) who genuinely do not want to play with female companions, or gay companions have a huge variety of games to choose from.  I have Bioware games (and a few others).  And my love and loyalty knows no bounds as a result.


I agree with a lot of what you said. I also grew up with games that had only a male option - and I'm heartly sick of that. I don't play much besides CRPGs - and I absolutely refuse to buy/play a game that has no female protagonist option. Why would I support female gamers being marginalized?

As for BioWare - I really like that they always (?) include a female protagonist. But even the Lady Hawke couldn't save this game for me - there are too many things I just don't like. So I returned my rented copy and decided not to buy this game, even though I find that the romances were a step into the right direction (that they left me completely cold, all four of them, is another matter entirely). I will definitely take a look at DA3, should it be made, and I hope that the romance options will stay as inclusive as the ones in DA2 - if perhaps a little less rushed with at least one LI that has a little emotional maturity.

#1696
catabuca

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ciaweth wrote...

Also, this whole out-flipping needs a #firstworldproblem hashtag.


Oh heck, thanks for making me snort my drink out my nose :D

#1697
Sharn01

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AltitudeNYC wrote...

We need to be tolerant of other peoples views. To be completely honest however, I must admit, there is more in your face homosexuality in Dragon Age II than I've actually experienced personally in real life. . . and this is coming from a New York City native.


You really think that? 

There was a total of two short flirts during the entire game that you had to put up with as a male character, a short flirt with Anders and another short one with a male protitute.  Other then that any content you saw had to be initiated by the player.  For Lady Hawke the only content that was not initiated by the player was Isabella, who would sleep with anyone she found even remotely attractive. 

I have been exposed to more homosexuals in the last three months then there was in DA:O and DA2 combined and I live in the midwest, so you either live a secluded life or you are full ot it.

#1698
MaximusPhoenix

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ciaweth wrote...

AltitudeNYC wrote...

We need to be tolerant of other peoples views. To be completely honest however, I must admit, there is more in your face homosexuality in Dragon Age II than I've actually experienced personally in real life. . . and this is coming from a New York City native.

"In-your-face homosexuality?"  Seriously?  I grew up in Oregon, lived in Minnesota for 15 years, and now live in Wisconsin, and I've seen far more than this.  If you really live in NYC, I call exaggeration.  It's not like Anders whipped it out and slapped you in the face with it.

...Now THERE'S an image.  Huh.


:OLOL:O

I call exaggeration on that too. NYC is massive....though some people choose to only go about their life in a very small radius.

#1699
sleepyowlet

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Tirigon wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

Being flirted at by Anders is a fate worse than death???


Better a blade in the heart than a dong in the butt!!!!

Someone should make a motivational of it - I can´t, I haven´t pirated photoshop yet.B)


Use the powers of GIMP, young Padawan!

#1700
the_one_54321

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Why does this absolutely need to be about sexuality?
How many different ways is there to say that fair is fair?

Why can't this be about the quality of the game design instead?