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Romance Retcons Anders' Backstory?


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#1
RevanchistStenn

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Let me preface this by saying I was drawn into this in the first place by seeing the back and forth re: not enough "heterosexual options." I'm fairly sure that topic has been adequately covered, so there's no need to rehash that discussion. It got me thinking about something in a quasi-similar vein, though.

I've noticed that if you pursue a gay romance with Anders, it seems to retcon his sexuality. I always personally saw Anders as a heterosexual character, since Awakenings when he made an offhand mention of wanting a girl. Does that mean it's my misconception? Possibly. But then, if you romance Anders with a female, there's no mention of Karl as a past fling. That DOES get brought up if Hawke is male. Now, maybe it's just a case of him sharing personal details differently depending on your gender. Whether it is or isn't, I perceived  this to be because it seemed to me if you romance him with a female, in her universe that fling never actually happened. Now indulge me here before I shoot down my own argument: I don't like that. I don't like feeling like my interest in a character is able to transform his backstory. I personally felt like the frames strained to allow what I wanted to happen. Because in real life it doesn't work that way. If Anders is bisexual, there's nothing wrong with that - but I didn't like that he wasn't unless you're male and interested in him. That sort of broke suspension of disbelief for me. Again, I could have completely misinterpreted that, but it seemed like two distinctly different sexualities for the same character.

Now for me to shoot down my own argument. You could say the same thing about every aspect of the game. Dragon Age is a series of alternate realities. In some of them, Alistair is king. In others, he's dead. Every choice you make inherently shapes your game-specific world, so in that sense every break from so-called "continuity" is in essence just consistent with the new world it's shaped. My first character was a wise-cracking mage, my second, an ardent supporter of Templars. Their entire range of choices were entirely different, but both of them are named Hawke and occupy the same place in a bloodline. So while I can see the argument that sexuality is a core trait to someone, it's a hard argument to support in this game where core traits are entirely variable depending on choice. If the PC can be as flexible, NPCs should be the same. But the writer part of me struggles to accept that, on a purely emotional level since it goes against my own personal core beliefs of what is sacred for character generation.

What do you think?

Modifié par RevanchistStenn, 24 mars 2011 - 07:18 .


#2
Mariefoxprice83

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My take on that is that if Anders is romanced by a female character he might not want to tell a female that he was involved with men in the past. Zevran does, of cousre, but his whole attitude toewards sex is different anyway and even he asks if a female character is offended by the concept. Whereas if Anders is fromanced by a male Warden they are both men interested in same sex relationships.

#3
mesmerizedish

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It depends. If you think him being romanceable by a male character contradicts what we know of the character from Awakening, then yes, it's a retcon.

Otherwise, it's just revealing more about the character.

#4
Jennifer Brandes Hepler

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Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

#5
TheBlackBaron

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He's Hawkesexual.

True, there's nothing that specifically says he wasn't bisexual in Awakening, thus it isn't a retcon, but it still feels like Ander's being an option for both male and female Hawkes is the most egregarious sudden sexuality of the bunch. At least Isabela was firmly established as being bisexual in DA:O and Merill and Fenris were blank slates in that regard. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 24 mars 2011 - 07:36 .


#6
mesmerizedish

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.


That's... really unnerving.

[EDIT] Also, didn't you write him? That's kinda like cheating. Did you write him in Awakening as well?

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 24 mars 2011 - 07:37 .


#7
Mariefoxprice83

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Makes sense, though I do remember him making a comment about women in particular when I played Awakening , so I admit I personally assumed he was straight until the information about all companions except Sebastian being romancable by both genders.

#8
mesmerizedish

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Mariefoxprice83 wrote...

Makes sense, though I do remember him making a comment about women in particular when I played Awakening , so I admit I personally assumed he was straight until the information about all companions except Sebastian being romancable by both genders.


He makes lots of comments about women, and he makes a few comments toward men that could be intepreted luridly. Regardless, only talking about women does not make one straight.

#9
Mariefoxprice83

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I never said it did. That was the impression I had of his character, that's all. But then I don't know any bisexual people (that I know of) so I wouldn't know how to tell if someone swings both ways in real life.

#10
mesmerizedish

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Mariefoxprice83 wrote...

I never said it did. That was the impression I had of his character, that's all. But then I don't know any bisexual people (that I know of) so I wouldn't know how to tell if someone swings both ways in real life.


Oh, I know you didn't say that. I was just adding to the discussion :)
I dated a bisexual girl once who never once mentioned to me that she liked men. And then she left me for one. Ouch.

#11
RevanchistStenn

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.


Is Justice male though? I know Justice has a male voice but I always assumed as an embodiment of a virtue he doesn't actually have one. I guess I personally would have preferred if the Karl story came up regardless of gender. That just stuck out to me, because as you said, as man who is not sexually hung up, there should be no problem mentioning it in both cases.

#12
RevanchistStenn

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Mariefoxprice83 wrote...

I never said it did. That was the impression I had of his character, that's all. But then I don't know any bisexual people (that I know of) so I wouldn't know how to tell if someone swings both ways in real life.


There's no behavioral signpost to it in my experience. It's something I've only ever become aware of when someone told me.

#13
Lithuasil

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I can kind of understand that he doesn't bring it up in a heterosexual relationship, given how such things are looked upon in ferelden, and that he's more then insecure about it, anyway.

#14
TheJediSaint

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.



Perhaps, but I somehow doubt Justice bought him dinner first.

#15
Blacklash93

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Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

And the answer is...

Justice did it. Posted Image

#16
MikuHaru

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Blacklash93 wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

And the answer is...

Justice did it. Posted Image


I think she just pretty much said that Justice didn't do it. :pinched: Justice is just proof that he's okay with male/male intimacy.

I kind of imagine the time in the circle he describes is a bit like the 70s, with the free love and all -- gender just really didn't matter.

#17
Lithuasil

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MikuHaru wrote... 

I kind of imagine the time in the circle he describes is a bit like the 70s, with the free love and all -- gender just really didn't matter.


Now that gives me a whole new perspective on my warden :whistle:

#18
highcastle

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Yeah, Justice didn't do it considering Karl came long before him. And regarding Awakening...you can read the interactions anyway you want. I always thought him as being slightly flirtatious with Nathaniel. There's absolutely nothing concrete, but it was my own interpretation and there's definitely subtext there if you want to see it. So I never saw this as a retcon. In fact, the moment Anders was announced, I was rallying for him as the same sex love interest. (And then we got both him and Fenris and my year was made.)

#19
Emperor Iaius I

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[quote]Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.[/quote]

[/quote]

This immediately came to mind:

Posted Image

edit: good heavens, that image is obnoxiously huge. Let me find a smaller one...

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 24 mars 2011 - 11:32 .


#20
jbblue05

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Anders will always be straight to me
I gotta keep that rivalry up so he doesn't flirt with me..

#21
TheBlackBaron

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Emperor Iaius I wrote...

This immediately came to mind:

Posted Image

edit: good heavens, that image is obnoxiously huge. Let me find a smaller one...


Anders-Justice: Analrapist. 

Well played sir (or madam), well played.

#22
Emperor Iaius I

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Emperor, not empress. Definitely sir.

#23
frustratemyself

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RevanchistStenn wrote...

I guess I personally would have preferred if the Karl story came up regardless of gender. That just stuck out to me, because as you said, as man who is not sexually hung up, there should be no problem mentioning it in both cases.


Ditto.
It does feel like you miss out on some important parts of getting to know Anders as a person when these conversations just don't come up with female Hawke.

#24
StingingVelvet

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Anders being bi makes sense and I like the idea of circle mages being bored and having orgies and such to pass the time. Isabela being bi makes sense for her character as well, and how she was introduced in Origins.

Merril and Fenris should have been straight LIs though, if you ask me. Having all four be bi is kind of weird.

#25
dantares83

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my take is that (like what many had said) if he romanced a female character, there is no reasons for him to tell her his past relationships, just like in real-life, u dun actually ask a potential interest how many partners they had b4...
but to pursue a homosexual relationship, i think it's ok to make known that even though people see u as straight, u had experiences and u dun really care they r male/female.. u love the person, not the body..