54 réponses à ce sujet

[KawaiiKatie]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

Anders: "Justice disapproves of my obsession with you-"
Vengeance: "You'll never love him like I do, Mortal!"

[Alarieliia]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

Anders: "Justice disapproves of my obsession with you-"
Vengeance: "You'll never love him like I do, Mortal!"

Ahahahahaha! <3 Well he is the third wheel......sort of.

[FLStyle]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

Er, I realise you work for BioWare and all and I respect that you've come to help out the users figure out a problem they have.

But no.

When a spirit joins with a human it's not about sharing a body and soul, it's simply providing a spirit with a shell in order to exist. There's no emotion involved, Anders and Justice just happened to be friends beforehand. The way you try and put an intimacy twist on the whole thing, no, that's not right.

I'm sure Wynne would agree with me.

[Ninche]

I think it's silly to argue about this with the person who has created the character. Except that it's a bit heartbreaking never to be the most importaint thing in Anders' life I think his loving and open minded nature makes him even more attractive as a love interest. In a way he embodies the ideas that love should not be determined by gender or social status. And also - if he is in fact attracted to both men and women that just makes the compliment of his affections towards Hawke even more profound - out of literally EVERYONE he could have loved he falls in love with Hawke. There is so much more to loving a person than just sharing their body - in every sense of the word.

[syllogi]

FLStyle wrote...

Er, I realise you work for BioWare and all and I respect that you've come to help out the users figure out a problem they have.

But no.

When a spirit joins with a human it's not about sharing a body and soul, it's simply providing a spirit with a shell in order to exist. There's no emotion involved, Anders and Justice just happened to be friends beforehand. The way you try and put an intimacy twist on the whole thing, no, that's not right.

I'm sure Wynne would agree with me.

Actually, no, I'm pretty sure Wynne would not agree with you:

after Wynne's condition is revealed:

Zevran: I couldn't help hearing about your... predicament. Forgive me if I am prying...

Wynne: Yes, you are.

Zevran: ... but what does it feel like being possessed by a spirit?

Wynne: Why does this interest you so?

Zevran: I simply wish to get to know those that I travel with. Is that wrong of me?

Wynne: No, of course it isn't. Well... let me see. It is hard to describe. It is comforting... I... I feel safe, loved.

Zevran: Comforted, loved, yes...

Wynne: It is like being held close, cradled... the bond is so complete that I am unable to extricate myself, nor do I wish to. Wait... why do you have that look on your face?

Zevran: Mmm, I... I am simply imagining it. Continue, please.

Wynne: And there is a constant warmth, that spreads outwards from the very center of my being, infusing my body with--

Zevran: Ooh...

Wynne: Andraste's grace, what are you thinking about now? No, I don't want to know. I feel dirty. Do not speak to me.

Everything she describes in that banter sounds extremely intimate and emotional.  She may not put a gender on it, but the spirit bond definitely involves feelings for her.

edit:  ack, formatting got screwed up when copying from the DA wiki.

Modifié par TeenZombie, 25 mars 2011 - 04:10 .

[Deztyn]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

To be fair, not everyone thinks that part was especially in character.

I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out when he and Justice became BFFs. From what I remember of their banters they didn't actually get along that well. What with Anders implying Justice wasn't much different from a demon and Justice being miffed that Anders didn't want to run around trying to liberate mages and such.

[Saibh]

FLStyle wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

Er, I realise you work for BioWare and all and I respect that you've come to help out the users figure out a problem they have.

But no.

When a spirit joins with a human it's not about sharing a body and soul, it's simply providing a spirit with a shell in order to exist. There's no emotion involved, Anders and Justice just happened to be friends beforehand. The way you try and put an intimacy twist on the whole thing, no, that's not right.

I'm sure Wynne would agree with me.

Well, it depends on the person, but I agree that allowing a friend to possess you and letting a friend sleep with you can be far removed from each other.

And, honestly--I wish the writers would just own up to changing his sexuality. It's not a big deal. It just adds to my "I don't even see why they brough Anders back" list, but I accept it.

What grates me is trying to claim he was always bisexual. He wasn't. We all know this. He was written as a straight guy, and, for story purposes, you retconned it. Fine. But lying about it is just making me lose respect for the decision. No amount of "Oh, well, just because he never did doesn't mean he never would..." is going to be believable. With all due respect, it comes off as a cop-out. 

EDIT: On second thought, you don't need to own up to it--in fact, I'd recommend steering way the hell clear of these kinds of threads--just don't insult our collective intelligence.

Modifié par Saibh, 25 mars 2011 - 08:21 .

[Rhayth]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

That's to say that Justice is in fact a male...even though the character has a male voice, and as his spirit body is male looking is there really a Spirit of Justice is a man of justice or a spirit?  I thought for the sake of gameplay just giving him a male voice, but didn't actually see Justice as a he just as what the lore calls him...a Spirit of Justice an incarnation of a virtue.  And when Anders makes this statement about sexuallity in the Circle he also says it in a joking manner kinda like Alistair's pillow fighting Templars.  I agree though to the first responder saying that he might have with held certain past relationships for fear of a female being all prejudiced about it...as only males seem to be prejudice to gay in real life somehow in DA women would be prejudice toward it...weird.

Personally I like knowing one way or the other not so much a "OH GOD!"  I liked Zevran cause he was clear in himself, he was bi for whatever reasons that was his decisions, period.  Not this "OH!  You're just so amazing Hawke no one can resist you."  Maybe Anders is straight but at the sight of Hawke he just got weak in the knee's.  Either way i'd say the biggest loss for Anders was his comical free loving side...but I guess we had Varric for that even though he owned it like a champ!

[Wrathra]

Did he only have the relationship with Karl if you're a male Hawke? I think it would have added an interesting bit of character development if he mentioned it to either Hawke like Zevran does. It seems like fem!hawke got kind of jipped development wise with Anders - he seemed to have a lot more dialogue and backstory for a manly!hawke.

Modifié par Wrathra, 25 mars 2011 - 09:12 .

[GamiSB]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

So, anyone possed by a demon is effectivly having "realtions" with it or if it's against their will being raped?

[Oneiropolos]

Just saw this and had to comment. Awakening!Anders was actually written by David Gaider. As was Justice, actually. Ms. Hepler wrote the combination of the two in DAII. She did it quite well, I think, as even if I LIKED Anders better in Awakening, he was consistent in his characterization as something -new- in DAII. Which fit well with the whole new voice, now you're an abomination, now you're going sorta psycho...

I will say, actually, that I sincerely wish the writers HADN'T made the decision that Anders would only reveal having been with men to a male Hawke. I mean, Zev reveals it and you can even lose approval with him if you express that you're freaked out by it to him. Anders is sufficiently in enough of a situation where he's sick of hiding who he is, that 'hiding' his bisexuality by not mentioning that oh, hey, yeah, that guy you helped save, we were lovers, to a female Hawke seems a bit... odd to me. I mean, the dude's an abomination and he's worried about how you'd take him being bisexual? It just doesn't quite add up. Frankly, I would have bought another Zev attitude about it of "Well, yeah, in general I prefer women, but in the circle you took intimacy where you could get intimacy" and of course, his relationship with male!Hawke could still be meaningful with this. In Torchwood, Ianto gets questioned about his sexuality by his sister because one of her friends caught him going out to dinner with Jack, and she wants to know when he basically realized he was bisexual or homosexual, and he goes, "I'm not. It's not... look, it's just Jack."

It's not so odd to consider that since Anders admitted that he never allowed himself to love (at least not in a deep sense) before and he had never known a mage who HAD, that loving Hawke is still something special and exclusive. No matter the gender.

[Cutlass Jack]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

 good heavens, that image is obnoxiously huge. Let me find a smaller one...

"I know its alot to take in all at once." -Hawke (to Fenris)

[Darth Krytie]

GamiSB wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

So, anyone possed by a demon is effectivly having "realtions" with it or if it's against their will being raped?

Your brain is a scary place, jsyk.

Intimacy=/=sex. He's subletting space in his soul and body with spirit.

And she never claimed Justice was a man. Just male-seeming. That's different.

[sylvanaerie]

Frankly I always got a bi vibe with him, even in Awakenings. I could have sworn I saw a post from a dev a while back on a board speculating the various orientation of Awakenings companions, saying he wasn't gay or bi but that could just be me mis-remembering something I saw and I can't link it obviously.
Gay, straight, bi whatever, it doesn't bother me either writing wise or 'hawkesexual wise' or however you want to present it. I have no issues with him being straight with my LadyHawke or gay with my Male Hawke. Different realities, different choices. Not all Hawke's are the same either. I had one romance Fenris, one romance Isabella, one romance Merrill, even one agreed to Sebastian's proposal. All het relationships up to now but trying my very first bi/lesbian one with Isabella this playthrough. I personally LIKE having the different choices to explore.
Or maybe the relationship with Karl exists independent of Hawke's gender and Anders truly is bisexual but just doesn't feel comfortable bringing it up with a LadyHawke he just met. In my opinion this adds a new level to his personality, not detracts from it.
I don't really have issues with that aspect of his personality.

[Plaintiff]

To retcon a backstory, you have to actually have established one previously. Anders backstory was not explored to any great extent in Awakening, he's only with the Warden for a couple months, so he's not at all likely to get into detail about his sexuality (especially since the inability to romance him suggest he wouldn't be attracted to the Warden regardless of gender). Just because girls are all he talks about doesn't mean they're all he's interested in.

[Darth Krytie]

Plaintiff wrote...

To retcon a backstory, you have to actually have established one previously. Anders backstory was not explored to any great extent in Awakening, he's only with the Warden for a couple months, so he's not at all likely to get into detail about his sexuality (especially since the inability to romance him suggest he wouldn't be attracted to the Warden regardless of gender). Just because girls are all he talks about doesn't mean they're all he's interested in.

Exactly and it's been said that while homosexuality is far more acceptable than in our own world, that it's still considered quirky/odd. So, it might not be something one would broach with another in casual conversation unless they're interested. And given Anders isn't a LI in Awakenings, there's no reason for him to broach a subject that sorta borders on taboo, depending on the circle you're in.

Isabela does and that's just a part of her character overall. She's outwardly flirty and uninterested in being bogged down by convention and societal standards.

[Plaintiff]

GamiSB wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

So, anyone possed by a demon is effectivly having "realtions" with it or if it's against their will being raped?

Only if you think it's possible to have sex with someone's brain.

[Anarcala]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

To retcon a backstory, you have to actually have established one previously. Anders backstory was not explored to any great extent in Awakening, he's only with the Warden for a couple months, so he's not at all likely to get into detail about his sexuality (especially since the inability to romance him suggest he wouldn't be attracted to the Warden regardless of gender). Just because girls are all he talks about doesn't mean they're all he's interested in.

Exactly and it's been said that while homosexuality is far more acceptable than in our own world, that it's still considered quirky/odd. So, it might not be something one would broach with another in casual conversation unless they're interested. And given Anders isn't a LI in Awakenings, there's no reason for him to broach a subject that sorta borders on taboo, depending on the circle you're in.

Isabela does and that's just a part of her character overall. She's outwardly flirty and uninterested in being bogged down by convention and societal standards.

Well said!

I must say I struggle with two things over the 'retcon' alligations.

1 - Jennifer wrote the damn character and was obviously given all the character notes and backstory in order to do it.  When it comes to Anders, she is literally the final authority.  Therefore, Anders is bi.  Deal with it.

2 - Why is it such a biggie that Anders is bi?  He's a sexually free guy with PLENTY of experience under his belt.  I think all the controversy over this just goes to show how uncomfortable people are with bi and homosexuality in general.

[pingupower]

Plaintiff wrote...

GamiSB wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Anders in Awakening was very up-front about how sexually adventurous the Ferelden Circle was. While he does not specify if he has had past relationships with men, he certainly does not show any degree of sexual hang-up. Since he has chosen to allow a male-seeming friend to actually enter and share his body and soul, I could not personally imagine that he would draw the line at having sex with a man. There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

So, anyone possed by a demon is effectivly having "realtions" with it or if it's against their will being raped?

Only if you think it's possible to have sex with someone's brain.

Well you can certainly dryhump someone's^^

[Oneiropolos]

....but what if you pinned someone down in the fade? Are you having sex with their brain or with their soul or with just their inner consciousness? SEE?! Not that simple anymore! Not in Thedas! Next Dragon Age is going to have an LI you can only see if you're human and you go to sleep. Sorta like that desire demon with the Connor Incident. Except. You know. Probably not a demon. To some people's disappointments.

All I meant was I'd have liked the opportunity to get to hear Anders discuss his past with Karl as a female Hawke. I disliked the decision to have it be something only males have a chance of hearing. I've been asked out by bi guys before, and I never thought, "But you're interested in guys too! That means I cannot date you!"....in retrospect, I should probably find it more flattering. It means I won over TWO genders to gain their interest. It's not something I'll stomp my feet over, but it is an intriguing element of Anders and does actually seem to tie into who he is.. just.. for some reason females never see it.

[Plaintiff]

laecraft wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

There is nothing he could possibly do with Hawke or Karl or anyone else that comes close to the intimacy he has with Justice.

Intimacy is only possible between separate entities. Otherwise you might as well say that every man is intimate with himself. Anders either percieves Justice as part of himself or he doesn't. You can't eat your cake and keep it too.

Anders claims several times that Justice is gone and is part of him now, and he percieves his thoughts as his own. Then at some point we get to see Justice in the Fade as a separate entity! What's more, Anders claims that Justice disapproves of LI. So they are separate, after all. He can tell a difference between their thoughts, anyway. That's a bit confusing.

But if Anders and Justice share the kind of intimacy that cannot be matched by anything else, then it's just sad for Hawke. It sucks to pursue a romance that's just a pale shadow of a true intimancy in Anders' eyes. Looks like it was a losing battle from the very beginning. No wonder the romance didn't even give him a pause in the end.

Intimacy and romance aren't necessarily hand in hand. Intimacy is just closeness, in a phsyical or emotional sense, and you can't get much closer than sharing the same body. Anders and Justice have an insurmountable bond, but it's not out of love, it's because they are inextricably intertwined with each other. Hawke isn't "second best", the connections between Hawke/Anders and Anders/Justice are on completely different levels, they can't be compared.

Anders says he feels Justice's thoughts as his own, not that they are his own. He specifically says that they're Justice's. Justice is always present, lurking beneath Ander's usual self, waiting to rise to the surface in times of great anger.

You say intimcay can only be felt between separate entities, but think about the words we use to describe intimacy. "I feel a really strong connection to you.", "It's like you're a piece of me.", "It's almost like we're the same person." Justice and Anders are just being literal about it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 avril 2011 - 01:01 .

[cleosilver]

I think the hints that Anders is Bi were there in awakenings.
For example his comment to Nathaniel

* Nathaniel: You don't always wear robes, do you?
* Anders: Not when I'm naked I don't.

[Uezurii]

cleosilver wrote...

I think the hints that Anders is Bi were there in awakenings.
For example his comment to Nathaniel

* Nathaniel: You don't always wear robes, do you?
* Anders: Not when I'm naked I don't.

How is that a hint at him being bi? It's just Anders being Anders the smartass. After all when I aks you if you wear a shirt all the time and you say the same line as Anders, because when your naked you dont wear a shirt, does that mean your bi too? :')

[Lord Gremlin]

Well, since we can have dead Alistair, Drunklister and king Alistair, I can see how depending on you Hawke's gender Anders either straight, or bisexual.
BTW, he's very hesitant to start a romance with female Hawke, worrying about ruining her life and breaking her heart. Is is same with male Hawke?