266 réponses à ce sujet

[nicodeemus327]

ziloe wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

ziloe wrote...

But the Arishok still ransacks the place beforehand. There is no way to stop that.

And how many ways were there to stop King Aeducan from dying, Connor from making a deal with a demon, Zathrian cursing the werewolf and Ulric going Bloodmage again?
And how many of the bosses in Origins could be persuaded to leave, after their demands were met?

How about using some legitimate examples, instead of using ones that happened while you weren't even there!

Ok why couldn't I stop Loghains betrayal at ostagar? I mean, just like the arishoks plan, I had no ****ing clue it was gonna happen, but I should've totally been able to stop that and end the blight right there!

The blight wouldn't have ended. The broodmother's make thousands per day. You also don't get to know Loghain enough, because you're still a nobody. Certain things make sense and set the mood. Others, like in DA:2, could have been prevented, the ending being the most prominent. For example, I skipped helping Anders obtain his ingredients and still he managed to get the stuff and still managed to get inside the Chantry covertly. That bothered me the most.

Just because you didn't help him doesn't mean you prevented him from doing it. Why? He was motivated enough to get it done one way or another. Its the same excuse you used for logain and his betrayal. It gonna happen but you get to decide your character's involvement. That's where the choice in both games exist. The big events happen reguardless and you get to decide how you react to it.

[Lithuasil]

ziloe wrote...
The blight wouldn't have ended. The broodmother's make thousands per day. You also don't get to know Loghain enough, because you're still a nobody. Certain things make sense and set the mood. Others, like in DA:2, could have been prevented, the ending being the most prominent. For example, I skipped helping Anders obtain his ingredients and still he managed to get the stuff and still managed to get inside the Chantry covertly. That bothered me the most.

Any move you would make against the compound would mean the qunari rise up and ransack the city. And you can't know they're planning to that, and don't have the resources to make a move on them, because you're not champion yet. Certain things make sense and set the mood. Others, like in Origins, don't at all, the entire starting off point being the most prominent. For example, when Jowain proposed destroying his phylactery, I went straight to the first enchanter. I did nothing wrong or illegal, Gregoir doesn't even push any charges and I still get railroaded into the Wardens, despite explicitly expressing that I don't want to. That bothered me the most.

See what I did there?
Also, you know, any person with a minimum of intellectual honesty would have said "oh ****, you can avoid fighting the Arishok? I didn't know that maybe my opinion isn't that well based after all" about five posts ago. You didn't, go figure.

[ziloe]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

ziloe wrote...

But the Arishok still ransacks the place beforehand. There is no way to stop that.

And how many ways were there to stop King Aeducan from dying, Connor from making a deal with a demon, Zathrian cursing the werewolf and Ulric going Bloodmage again?
And how many of the bosses in Origins could be persuaded to leave, after their demands were met?

How about using some legitimate examples, instead of using ones that happened while you weren't even there!

Ok why couldn't I stop Loghains betrayal at ostagar? I mean, just like the arishoks plan, I had no ****ing clue it was gonna happen, but I should've totally been able to stop that and end the blight right there!

The blight wouldn't have ended. The broodmother's make thousands per day. You also don't get to know Loghain enough, because you're still a nobody. Certain things make sense and set the mood. Others, like in DA:2, could have been prevented, the ending being the most prominent. For example, I skipped helping Anders obtain his ingredients and still he managed to get the stuff and still managed to get inside the Chantry covertly. That bothered me the most.

Just because you didn't help him doesn't mean you prevented him from doing it. Why? He was motivated enough to get it done one way or another. Its the same excuse you used for logain and his betrayal. It gonna happen but you get to decide your character's involvement. That's where the choice in both games exist. The big events happen reguardless and you get to decide how you react to it.

It's still forced on you if you consider having Anders die in Awakening and transferring your data. Even if you don't have Justice, somehow they still conspire together to become one. People have even been noted in saying that they didn't have him in their group and yet, Anders still apparently knows your Warden.

[nicodeemus327]

ziloe wrote...

It's still forced on you if you consider having Anders die in Awakening and transferring your data. Even if you don't have Justice, somehow they still conspire together to become one. People have even been noted in saying that they didn't have him in their group and yet, Anders still apparently knows your Warden.

Anders faked his death in DA:A which fits his character pretty well. However, that's getting away from the point. The big events (ie anders blowing up the chantry, logains betryal) will always occur. This is true in both DA:O and DA2. The choice you get is how your character reacts to these events. You get plenty of that in DA2 and it was advertised in the pre-release interviews.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 24 mars 2011 - 10:21 .

[ziloe]

Lithuasil wrote...

ziloe wrote...
The blight wouldn't have ended. The broodmother's make thousands per day. You also don't get to know Loghain enough, because you're still a nobody. Certain things make sense and set the mood. Others, like in DA:2, could have been prevented, the ending being the most prominent. For example, I skipped helping Anders obtain his ingredients and still he managed to get the stuff and still managed to get inside the Chantry covertly. That bothered me the most.

Any move you would make against the compound would mean the qunari rise up and ransack the city. And you can't know they're planning to that, and don't have the resources to make a move on them, because you're not champion yet. Certain things make sense and set the mood. Others, like in Origins, don't at all, the entire starting off point being the most prominent. For example, when Jowain proposed destroying his phylactery, I went straight to the first enchanter. I did nothing wrong or illegal, Gregoir doesn't even push any charges and I still get railroaded into the Wardens, despite explicitly expressing that I don't want to. That bothered me the most.

See what I did there?
Also, you know, any person with a minimum of intellectual honesty would have said "oh ****, you can avoid fighting the Arishok? I didn't know that maybe my opinion isn't that well based after all" about five posts ago. You didn't, go figure.

I understand railroading in some aspects, although, it would have been interesting having to roleplay an apostate mage after running from Duncan in the beginning, would it not? And having the game go from there and force your aid elsewhere. Not to mention, I was entirely aware five posts ago that you didn't have to fight the Arishok. But that wasn't my issue, my issue was it being a forced event, despite it not being as bad as the end. Where was my option to kill Anders before he did anything crazy? Huh?

[da0Xeffect2]

This thread is laughable. "I was promised greatness but I didn't think it was great so it's completely horrible and those who like it are morons!" That's all I'm getting from this thread.

[nicodeemus327]

ziloe wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

ziloe wrote...
The blight wouldn't have ended. The broodmother's make thousands per day. You also don't get to know Loghain enough, because you're still a nobody. Certain things make sense and set the mood. Others, like in DA:2, could have been prevented, the ending being the most prominent. For example, I skipped helping Anders obtain his ingredients and still he managed to get the stuff and still managed to get inside the Chantry covertly. That bothered me the most.

Any move you would make against the compound would mean the qunari rise up and ransack the city. And you can't know they're planning to that, and don't have the resources to make a move on them, because you're not champion yet. Certain things make sense and set the mood. Others, like in Origins, don't at all, the entire starting off point being the most prominent. For example, when Jowain proposed destroying his phylactery, I went straight to the first enchanter. I did nothing wrong or illegal, Gregoir doesn't even push any charges and I still get railroaded into the Wardens, despite explicitly expressing that I don't want to. That bothered me the most.

See what I did there?
Also, you know, any person with a minimum of intellectual honesty would have said "oh ****, you can avoid fighting the Arishok? I didn't know that maybe my opinion isn't that well based after all" about five posts ago. You didn't, go figure.

I understand railroading in some aspects, although, it would have been interesting having to roleplay an apostate mage after running from Duncan in the beginning, would it not? And having the game go from there and force your aid elsewhere. Not to mention, I was entirely aware five posts ago that you didn't have to fight the Arishok. But that wasn't my issue, my issue was it being a forced event, despite it not being as bad as the end. Where was my option to kill Anders before he did anything crazy? Huh?

Because you had no reason to kill him? Sadly, for you, pyscho Hawke isn't a tone you can choose from.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 24 mars 2011 - 10:23 .

[ziloe]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

ziloe wrote...

But the Arishok still ransacks the place beforehand. There is no way to stop that.

And how many ways were there to stop King Aeducan from dying, Connor from making a deal with a demon, Zathrian cursing the werewolf and Ulric going Bloodmage again?
And how many of the bosses in Origins could be persuaded to leave, after their demands were met?

How about using some legitimate examples, instead of using ones that happened while you weren't even there!

Ok why couldn't I stop Loghains betrayal at ostagar? I mean, just like the arishoks plan, I had no ****ing clue it was gonna happen, but I should've totally been able to stop that and end the blight right there!

The blight wouldn't have ended. The broodmother's make thousands per day. You also don't get to know Loghain enough, because you're still a nobody. Certain things make sense and set the mood. Others, like in DA:2, could have been prevented, the ending being the most prominent. For example, I skipped helping Anders obtain his ingredients and still he managed to get the stuff and still managed to get inside the Chantry covertly. That bothered me the most.

Just because you didn't help him doesn't mean you prevented him from doing it. Why? He was motivated enough to get it done one way or another. Its the same excuse you used for logain and his betrayal. It gonna happen but you get to decide your character's involvement. That's where the choice in both games exist. The big events happen reguardless and you get to decide how you react to it.

It's still forced on you if you consider having Anders die in Awakening and transferring your data. Even if you don't have Justice, somehow they still conspire together to become one. People have even been noted in saying that they didn't have him in their group and yet, Anders still apparently knows your Warden.

Anders faked his death in DA:A which fits his character pretty well. However, that's getting away from the point. The big events will always occur. This is true in both DA:O and DA2. The choice you get is how your character reacts to these events. You get plenty of that in DA2.

I don't care about how it just affects my character! If my character is so influential, I should be seeing these changes more bluntly and not just through my party members. But even then, I should be able to prevent such events. For instance, if I romance Anders, I should know his plan and I should be able to stop him with any means necessary. It's the game designers job to find another reason, if we avoid such paths. 

[TheJediSaint]

I take issue with the idea that there isn't enough choice in DA2. The player in fact has plenty of choice in DA2.

Through mood choices, players are able to choose Hawke's general demeanor. Players are able to chose the kinds of relationships they are able to have with their companions.

The player may not be able to change the major events of the game, but they can chose the roles they have in those events. Players can choose to be honest with the Arishok, or lie to him. He can also choose to give Isabella to the Qunari, or duel the Arishok on her behalf.

And though Hawke cannot prevent the blowup with the Mages and Templars, the player can choose what side Hawke takes during the story. And I don't just mean during the end-game, but during the entire course of the story.

DA2 is about the hero that the player creates and how that hero reacts to the extraordinary events that happen around them. It's not really lack of choice that people are complaining about, but lack of power. No, the player does not have the power to affect many of the events happening in the story, but that is not a bad thing, it is just different. Hawke is not the Grey Warden who has to unite a country against a blight, he is a man trying to make a place for himself in a city on the brink of war.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 24 mars 2011 - 10:25 .

[ziloe]

da0Xeffect2 wrote...

This thread is laughable. "I was promised greatness but I didn't think it was great so it's completely horrible and those who like it are morons!" That's all I'm getting from this thread.

Wow, someone can't read. No where did I call anyone a moron. I said that if we want higher standards for our games, we shouldn't be so accepting of sub par game design.

[Lithuasil]

ziloe wrote...

I understand railroading in some aspects, although, it would have been interesting having to roleplay an apostate mage after running from Duncan in the beginning, would it not? And having the game go from there and force your aid elsewhere. Not to mention, I was entirely aware five posts ago that you didn't have to fight the Arishok. But that wasn't my issue, my issue was it being a forced event, despite it not being as bad as the end. Where was my option to kill Anders before he did anything crazy? Huh?

And what reason is there, to kill a selfless, loyal, idealistic, if a little extremistic friend of yours? Because I can't think of any. What I can however think of, is plenty of reasons why a mage in Origins wouldn't want to join the grey wardens to fight in a war. Or why I wouldn't go on an epic journey, after barely surviving ostagar. Or why...

But all that doesn't matter. We could do this all week, and you'd end up complaining about how the ships in the free marches look like bathtubs. (Which by the way, while equally relevant to the overall quality, would at least be a *valid* complaint)

[Kelgair]

ziloe wrote...

It's still forced on you if you consider having Anders die in Awakening and transferring your data. Even if you don't have Justice, somehow they still conspire together to become one. People have even been noted in saying that they didn't have him in their group and yet, Anders still apparently knows your Warden.

Also, no matter what you do in awakening your warden runs into Anders in the intro.

[nicodeemus327]

ziloe wrote...

I don't care about how it just affects my character! If my character is so influential, I should be seeing these changes more bluntly and not just through my party members. But even then, I should be able to prevent such events. For instance, if I romance Anders, I should know his plan and I should be able to stop him with any means necessary. It's the game designers job to find another reason, if we avoid such paths. 

No, its not their job. Not even a little bit. They have a story to tell. That's their job if anything. Some paths you cannot avoid for this story to be told. It was true in DAO and its true in DA2.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 24 mars 2011 - 10:29 .

[nicodeemus327]

Kelgair wrote...

ziloe wrote...

It's still forced on you if you consider having Anders die in Awakening and transferring your data. Even if you don't have Justice, somehow they still conspire together to become one. People have even been noted in saying that they didn't have him in their group and yet, Anders still apparently knows your Warden.

Also, no matter what you do in awakening your warden runs into Anders in the intro.

So another thing ziloe is completely wrong on. Add it to the list.

[da0Xeffect2]

ziloe wrote...

da0Xeffect2 wrote...

This thread is laughable. "I was promised greatness but I didn't think it was great so it's completely horrible and those who like it are morons!" That's all I'm getting from this thread.

Wow, someone can't read. No where did I call anyone a moron. I said that if we want higher standards for our games, we shouldn't be so accepting of sub par game design.

Yet you chose to buy the game and play it. And isn't this thread a response to thread of someone who liked the game? It's a bash on anyone who enjoys the game.

Modifié par da0Xeffect2, 24 mars 2011 - 10:31 .

[ziloe]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

I don't care about how it just affects my character! If my character is so influential, I should be seeing these changes more bluntly and not just through my party members. But even then, I should be able to prevent such events. For instance, if I romance Anders, I should know his plan and I should be able to stop him with any means necessary. It's the game designers job to find another reason, if we avoid such paths. 

No, its not their job. Not even a little bit. They have a story to tell. That's their job if anything. Some paths you cannot avoid for this story to be told. It was true in DAO and its true in DA2.

Have you ever played D&D? The GM may have a path for you, but he has to compensate for the choices you made and find other ways to do it without forcing it on you, otherwise it's no longer a roleplaying game.

[Lithuasil]

Kelgair wrote...

ziloe wrote...

It's still forced on you if you consider having Anders die in Awakening and transferring your data. Even if you don't have Justice, somehow they still conspire together to become one. People have even been noted in saying that they didn't have him in their group and yet, Anders still apparently knows your Warden.

Also, no matter what you do in awakening your warden runs into Anders in the intro.

Bioware: 1
Haters:    0
Carry on.

[ziloe]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Kelgair wrote...

ziloe wrote...

It's still forced on you if you consider having Anders die in Awakening and transferring your data. Even if you don't have Justice, somehow they still conspire together to become one. People have even been noted in saying that they didn't have him in their group and yet, Anders still apparently knows your Warden.

Also, no matter what you do in awakening your warden runs into Anders in the intro.

So another thing ziloe is completely wrong on. Add it to the list.

Who said I was wrong? It's a good excuse, but it still forces certain events which is exactly what I was saying, like having Justice. Maybe I didn't pick up Justice with my Warden, does it explain that one too?

[Lithuasil]

ziloe wrote...

Have you ever played D&D? The GM may have a path for you, but he has to compensate for the choices you made and find other ways to do it without forcing it on you, otherwise it's no longer a roleplaying game.

So we've now dropped all pretense and went from "I understand railroading at times" to "BWAH BWAH mommy, I want graphics for my PnP". Would you like some fairy dust and a pink unicorn while we're at it?

[nicodeemus327]

ziloe wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

I don't care about how it just affects my character! If my character is so influential, I should be seeing these changes more bluntly and not just through my party members. But even then, I should be able to prevent such events. For instance, if I romance Anders, I should know his plan and I should be able to stop him with any means necessary. It's the game designers job to find another reason, if we avoid such paths. 

No, its not their job. Not even a little bit. They have a story to tell. That's their job if anything. Some paths you cannot avoid for this story to be told. It was true in DAO and its true in DA2.

Have you ever played D&D? The GM may have a path for you, but he has to compensate for the choices you made and find other ways to do it without forcing it on you, otherwise it's no longer a roleplaying game.

I do indeed play D&D and actively DM Living Forgotten Realms. I always find a way for certain events to happen. I spend many hours preparing a scenario and don't always allow the players to do whatever the hell they want. In fact, its just like DAO and DA2. Certain events will happen and the player get to choose how their characters react within a certain range.

The simple fact of that matter is that certain events are outside of the character's control. This applies to D&D, DAO and DA2.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 24 mars 2011 - 10:43 .

[ziloe]

Lithuasil wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Have you ever played D&D? The GM may have a path for you, but he has to compensate for the choices you made and find other ways to do it without forcing it on you, otherwise it's no longer a roleplaying game.

So we've now dropped all pretense and went from "I understand railroading at times" to "BWAH BWAH mommy, I want graphics for my PnP". Would you like some fairy dust and a pink unicorn while we're at it?

Graphics? What the hell are you even talking about?

[ziloe]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

I don't care about how it just affects my character! If my character is so influential, I should be seeing these changes more bluntly and not just through my party members. But even then, I should be able to prevent such events. For instance, if I romance Anders, I should know his plan and I should be able to stop him with any means necessary. It's the game designers job to find another reason, if we avoid such paths. 

No, its not their job. Not even a little bit. They have a story to tell. That's their job if anything. Some paths you cannot avoid for this story to be told. It was true in DAO and its true in DA2.

Have you ever played D&D? The GM may have a path for you, but he has to compensate for the choices you made and find other ways to do it without forcing it on you, otherwise it's no longer a roleplaying game.

I do indeed play D&D and actively DM Living Forgotten Realms. I always find a way for certain events to happen. I spend many hours preparing a scenario and don't always allow the player to do whatever the hell they want. In fact, its just like DAO and DA2. Certain events will happen and the player get to choose how their characters react within a certain range.

Yes, but you still have to compensate for certain things, because doing anything otherwise makes things way too obvious, no? If your players kill a baddie doing an fantastic critical, sometimes you have to grin and bear it. Having them teleport away can get pretty stale.

[Lithuasil]

ziloe wrote...
Graphics? What the hell are you even talking about?

By bringing "have you ever played D&D into a discussion about a videogame, you render your own opinion pretty much invalid. Now add in, that just a few posts ago, you were actively excusing the railroading in a different game, and we're entering troll territory.

[nicodeemus327]

ziloe wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

I don't care about how it just affects my character! If my character is so influential, I should be seeing these changes more bluntly and not just through my party members. But even then, I should be able to prevent such events. For instance, if I romance Anders, I should know his plan and I should be able to stop him with any means necessary. It's the game designers job to find another reason, if we avoid such paths. 

No, its not their job. Not even a little bit. They have a story to tell. That's their job if anything. Some paths you cannot avoid for this story to be told. It was true in DAO and its true in DA2.

Have you ever played D&D? The GM may have a path for you, but he has to compensate for the choices you made and find other ways to do it without forcing it on you, otherwise it's no longer a roleplaying game.

I do indeed play D&D and actively DM Living Forgotten Realms. I always find a way for certain events to happen. I spend many hours preparing a scenario and don't always allow the player to do whatever the hell they want. In fact, its just like DAO and DA2. Certain events will happen and the player get to choose how their characters react within a certain range.

Yes, but you still have to compensate for certain things, because doing anything otherwise makes things way too obvious, no? If your players kill a baddie doing an fantastic critical, sometimes you have to grin and bear it. Having them teleport away can get pretty stale.

And? Do you have any kind of point? The player's are given a certain degree of freedom. Some things they can control, some they can't It's true for D&D, DAO and DA2.

[nicodeemus327]

Lithuasil wrote...

ziloe wrote...
Graphics? What the hell are you even talking about?

By bringing "have you ever played D&D into a discussion about a videogame, you render your own opinion pretty much invalid. Now add in, that just a few posts ago, you were actively excusing the railroading in a different game, and we're entering troll territory.

We're well into troll territory now. The D&D example shows just how much of a troll he really is. D&D has plenty of railroading. As a DM I didn't spend 6 hours preparing a scenario just so the players can go off and pick flowers or whatever. They will be involved in the events I've prepared one way or another just like DAO and DA2.