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[Rockworm503]

TJSolo wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

No more than an unfeeling mute does.  I never have this problem.  I play games for fun and I don't want to play as myself.  I play female characters more than I do men doesn't mean I imagine myself as a woman lol.

If you don't play games to RPing and place yourself into the shoes of the character then how are you going to answer a question about roleplaying?

Since when is it a requrement to imagine myself as a Dwarf to play as a Dwarf?
You don't make any sense.  I have no problem roleplaying I roleplay my character I get into their heads and decide their attitude and view points doesnt make me that character.

Does your attempt at roleplay match the concern and intent of the OP?

"When I was but a wee lad, a whole 3 weeks ago, I remember playing
Origins. I remember being the character. There was not a moment where I
didn't feel as though I were the one talking, fighting, and gathering. I
would read through all of the dialouge options and pick the one that
best suited both my character, Aburai, and myself. The NPCs would, of
course, not refer to me by name. They would refer to me by the title of
 "The Warden." Using the title instead of a name also helped the feeling
of immersion, which is incredibly vital in a role playing game such as
Dragon Age or Mass Effect."

So this experience is what he used to framed the question he is asking. The disconnect he is feeling just might be normal for how you play games but from his POV the disconnect affected immersion.

Yes I got that... Thank you for clarifying what I already got.  Your so helpful.  Because I've said that it doesn't help me get "Immersed"  when everyone is talking around me and my character is standing there with the same experssion on their face and no line is ever spoken by them.  Meanwhile a voiced character brings that character to life.  Say whatever you want about roleplaying and immersion (so damn tired of this word)  but for me a voice actor works so much better than nothing.
If I'm playing the game wrong because of that then it was never a roleplaying game to begin with because I was under the impression that there's no wrong way to roleplaying.

[aries1001]

We've had this discussion before, and I'll say whay I always say in these threads. If you play any adventure game, even the very old ones, all the way back to King's Quest 1 (and no I don't mean Oblivion)
and Shivers 2 as well as Black Mirror 1, and Post Mortem, up to Sherlock Holmes: Awakening and Black Mirror 3, the main character has always been voiced. And it does not hinder me from seeing or thinking myself playing as say Sherlock Holmes or Rosella in King's Quest 4.

If it is the dialogue wheel's structuring of your responses, I can maybe understand this. However, even in the old days when you had to choose a full response, it normally went like this

1) hey, I'm - who are you...
2) nice option
3) nice, but with a price option, sometimes ironic or sarcastic as well
4) them fighting words option
5) investigate option
6) goodbye option

The wheel just structures these options as in 1) nice 2) sarcastic and 3) them fighting words
The investigation option is then to the left in the dialogue wheel.

Nothing has changed, it i just how the dialogue presents itself that has. And I, for one, like it.

[LukaCrosszeria]

Aburai wrote...

 Does a spoken character that you created ruin the illusion that you're that character? What if you don't even know all of what they can say? This is my argument against BioWare's using the dialouge wheel and spoken character.

 When I was but a wee lad, a whole 3 weeks ago, I remember playing Origins. I remember being the character. There was not a moment where I didn't feel as though I were the one talking, fighting, and gathering. I would read through all of the dialouge options and pick the one that best suited both my character, Aburai, and myself. The NPCs would, of course, not refer to me by name. They would refer to me by the title of  "The Warden." Using the title instead of a name also helped the feeling of immersion, which is incredibly vital in a role playing game such as Dragon Age or Mass Effect.

 I then played Dragon Age II, to continue my heroics in Thedas. My character now had not a title, but a name people called him. This ruined some of the immersion, but not too much. My character also spoke now, which made it feel like I was merely controlling the characters actions and was not actually them. The dialouge wheel also helped destroy the immersion. You only got the gist of what your character was going to say, not the entire thing. In a role playing game such as this, it's important to know exactly what your character is going to say.

What do you guys n' gals think? Any opinion as welcome.

I think having a voiced protagonist is a very good thing. It makes me feel more connected with Hawke, the interaction with other characters is more solid because of that.

[KalDurenik]

Untill they do the following things im against a voiced character in a rpg:

*8+ voices  with pitch options, and mood (is that correct), like charming, friendly, angry, foolish (and so on).
*As much spoken lines as older rpg's.
*You should still be able to see WHAT your character will say with the things i said above. So 5-14 options on what to say including, wisdom checks, int checks, listen, hear, look and so on :>

Will these things happen? Most likely not sadly

[sleepyowlet]

aries1001 wrote...

We've had this discussion before, and I'll say whay I always say in these threads. If you play any adventure game, even the very old ones, all the way back to King's Quest 1 (and no I don't mean Oblivion)
and Shivers 2 as well as Black Mirror 1, and Post Mortem, up to Sherlock Holmes: Awakening and Black Mirror 3, the main character has always been voiced. And it does not hinder me from seeing or thinking myself playing as say Sherlock Holmes or Rosella in King's Quest 4.

If it is the dialogue wheel's structuring of your responses, I can maybe understand this. However, even in the old days when you had to choose a full response, it normally went like this

1) hey, I'm - who are you...
2) nice option
3) nice, but with a price option, sometimes ironic or sarcastic as well
4) them fighting words option
5) investigate option
6) goodbye option

The wheel just structures these options as in 1) nice 2) sarcastic and 3) them fighting words
The investigation option is then to the left in the dialogue wheel.

Nothing has changed, it i just how the dialogue presents itself that has. And I, for one, like it.

You are talking about adventure games, not role-playing-games. They are two different animals, or at least they should be. If I wanted to play a ready-made character like Sherlock Holmes or whatever, I'd play an adventure game.

But I don't. I want to play my own character, one that I make up, looks, personality and all. I want to roleplay my character, and I want to decide what they do or say. I want to know exactly what they say, and not facepalm every five minutes because of what actually comes out of their mouth. That is why I want to play a role-playing-game, and that is why I prefer the silent protagonist. Less nasty surprises.

[KalDurenik]

sleepyowlet wrote...

aries1001 wrote...

We've had this discussion before, and I'll say whay I always say in these threads. If you play any adventure game, even the very old ones, all the way back to King's Quest 1 (and no I don't mean Oblivion)
and Shivers 2 as well as Black Mirror 1, and Post Mortem, up to Sherlock Holmes: Awakening and Black Mirror 3, the main character has always been voiced. And it does not hinder me from seeing or thinking myself playing as say Sherlock Holmes or Rosella in King's Quest 4.

If it is the dialogue wheel's structuring of your responses, I can maybe understand this. However, even in the old days when you had to choose a full response, it normally went like this

1) hey, I'm - who are you...
2) nice option
3) nice, but with a price option, sometimes ironic or sarcastic as well
4) them fighting words option
5) investigate option
6) goodbye option

The wheel just structures these options as in 1) nice 2) sarcastic and 3) them fighting words
The investigation option is then to the left in the dialogue wheel.

Nothing has changed, it i just how the dialogue presents itself that has. And I, for one, like it.

You are talking about adventure games, not role-playing-games. They are two different animals, or at least they should be. If I wanted to play a ready-made character like Sherlock Holmes or whatever, I'd play an adventure game.

But I don't. I want to play my own character, one that I make up, looks, personality and all. I want to roleplay my character, and I want to decide what they do or say. I want to know exactly what they say, and not facepalm every five minutes because of what actually comes out of their mouth. That is why I want to play a role-playing-game, and that is why I prefer the silent protagonist. Less nasty surprises.

Well he is correct on one part... Bioware is moving more and more towards action / adventure games and removing more and more rpg elements. So like he said... Voice in a adventure game is okey

[sleepyowlet]

KalDurenik wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...


You are talking about adventure games, not role-playing-games. They are two different animals, or at least they should be. If I wanted to play a ready-made character like Sherlock Holmes or whatever, I'd play an adventure game.

But I don't. I want to play my own character, one that I make up, looks, personality and all. I want to roleplay my character, and I want to decide what they do or say. I want to know exactly what they say, and not facepalm every five minutes because of what actually comes out of their mouth. That is why I want to play a role-playing-game, and that is why I prefer the silent protagonist. Less nasty surprises.

Well he is correct on one part... Bioware is moving more and more towards action / adventure games and removing more and more rpg elements. So like he said... Voice in a adventure game is okey

Then they should stop calling their games role-playing games. Blatantly false advertising.

[KalDurenik]

sleepyowlet wrote...

KalDurenik wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...


You are talking about adventure games, not role-playing-games. They are two different animals, or at least they should be. If I wanted to play a ready-made character like Sherlock Holmes or whatever, I'd play an adventure game.

But I don't. I want to play my own character, one that I make up, looks, personality and all. I want to roleplay my character, and I want to decide what they do or say. I want to know exactly what they say, and not facepalm every five minutes because of what actually comes out of their mouth. That is why I want to play a role-playing-game, and that is why I prefer the silent protagonist. Less nasty surprises.

Well he is correct on one part... Bioware is moving more and more towards action / adventure games and removing more and more rpg elements. So like he said... Voice in a adventure game is okey

Then they should stop calling their games role-playing games. Blatantly false advertising.

:> Reminds me of something funny. A swedish game site at first had DA2 listed as a action game :> After like one week they changed it to rpg.

But well they are known for rpg's. If they came out and said "adventure / action game with rpg elements" the outcry would be worse then now. So they will just call everything a rpg :>

[zareen]

I don't think it's only the VO, but I felt disconnected. It didn't feel like acting out my character, but looking through a set of cut scenes that I had selected. It certainly breaks the immersion.

Another thing that made me feel disconnected and irritated was the motion acting of the female Hawke. They used the same motions for both males and females in the cut scenes and the masculine stances and moves looked disturbing, especially during the more romantic scenes.

On the side note, I agree with the minority that money should be spent on other aspects of the game and being mute in Origins never bothered me, I didn't even notice it.

[Tirigon]

Faust1979 wrote...

whether the the character is voiced or not it doesn't become me because it's a video game and not real

That just means you lack fantasy. For me, books and video games are real as long as i´m busy with em.

[Ahglock]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...
Non voiced characters allow more freedom in making the character be what you want it to be,  For some sure it is a reflection of themselves or an
idealised version of themselves, others might want to model a character
on a favorite movie or book character.  Maybe you hear Chuck noris when
you immagine your character or John Wayne, or Angelina Jolie etc.  Maybe
you make up a voice and personality completly whole cloth.  Non-voiced
allows that freedom, voiced does not.  

How does non-voiced offer that freedom? The actual words are right there. sure, you can imagine different voices reading those words, but that doesn't
get you a very different character.

In the non-voiced games there a lot more lines of dialogue while they don't always match up with what you would want to say, it happens a hell of a lot more often than in the voiced games.  So while it isn't perfect it does offer much more freedom. 

Talogrungi wrote...

Personally, I think a spoken character actually improves immersion .. if the VA is good.

In Origins, it's my mute warden who feels disconnected .. from myself, and from the world in which the story takes place. He has no tone, [/i]no fire, no [i]emotion because he has no voice with which to convey those emotions. When Hawke is angry, he sounds angry .. and it draws you in.

A line of angrily written text can never compare to that imo.

Wow. A line of angrily written text can never compare to that imo?  The days of when the general populace will say about a movie based on a novel, it was good but the book was better are dwindling.  Are movies getting better or did someone just double tap the human races imagination. 

[MonkeyLungs]

Embargoed wrote...

Alelsa wrote...

MonkeyLungs wrote...
I think most people here haven't actually role played ever. It's probably too nerdy.

And ten years ago we'd have answered them by pointing out that anyone sitting on the internet discussing computer games has no call to call anyone else nerdy    

Damn I feel old now.

MonkeyLungs, making general statements like that isn't smart. Roleplaying isn't nerdy, despite beign stereotyped as such. It's fun.

Why do people group everyone around them into neat little stereotypes? 

How about you read the whole thread and some of my posts in this thread, then come back and tell me I think role playing is nerdy. I played role playing games BEFORE they were on computers. Read my statement about how reading is much less popular than it was even 20 years ago ... now ad to that: UNDERSTANDING what people write is even less popular.

[MonkeyLungs]

Ahglock wrote...

Wow. A line of angrily written text can never compare to that imo?  The days of when the general populace will say about a movie based on a novel, it was good but the book was better are dwindling.  Are movies getting better or did someone just double tap the human races imagination. 

Yes. Someone, something DID double tap the human races imagination, then got in their chevy silverado and ran it over like 12 times just to make sure.

EDIT: The lead designer for this game flat out said that he feels text has always been a horrible medium for conveying sarcasm or sincerity ....  plenty of great literature (and even not so great literature) would disagree.

Modifié par MonkeyLungs, 26 mars 2011 - 03:48 .

[Tirigon]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

EDIT: The lead designer for this game flat out said that he feels text has always been a horrible medium for conveying sarcasm or sincerity ....  plenty of great literature (and even not so great literature) would disagree.

Well so DA2 is what you get if you let an illiterate work on a story.

Would explain a lot.

[AlanC9]

Ahglock wrote...
In the non-voiced games there a lot more lines of dialogue while they don't always match up with what you would want to say, it happens a hell of a lot more often than in the voiced games.  So while it isn't perfect it does offer much more freedom.

Could you define "a lot"? The percentage doesn't strike me as being all that much higher in DAO. I suppose we could measure it, though.

The days of when the general populace will say about a movie based on a novel, it was good but the book was better are dwindling.

When were those days, exactly?

[Big_Chief]

Honestly, the silent character from Origins didn't help me "become" him more. He just felt like a blank void. To me, the warden was the least interesting part of Origins. I didn't feel invested in him at all, he was just a tool for me to make choices in the world. Hawke, because he had a voice and expressions, let me relate to him more, and become more interested in what was going on. As a result, I felt significantly more connected to Dragon Age 2, rather than less.

That, however, seems to be the minority opinion around here.

[Talogrungi]

Ahglock wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Personally, I think a spoken character actually improves immersion .. if the VA is good.

In Origins, it's my mute warden who feels disconnected .. from myself, and from the world in which the story takes place. He has no tone, [/i]no fire, no emotion because he has no voice with which to convey those emotions. When Hawke is angry, he sounds angry .. and it draws you in.

A line of angrily written text can never compare to that imo.

Wow. A line of angrily written text can never compare to that imo?  The days of when the general populace will say about a movie based on a novel, it was good but the book was better are dwindling.  Are movies getting better or did someone just double tap the human races imagination. 

That's an out of context tangent. I'm talking about a specific situation; a graphical, voiced, CRPG with a mute, text-driven protagonist. Books are an entirely different matter; when everything is text, then text works. As it happens, I'm a huge fan of fictional literature; I [i]like text.

But not in the manner in which it was presented to us in Origins. The two media felt forced together and, imo, didn't mesh well in comparison to a voiced CRPG with a voiced protagonist. Perhaps I'm a purist on the basis that I am such a fan of both literature and CRPGs, but I would rather they remain separate .. that's just my preference.

[TJSolo]

That's an out of context tangent. I'm talking about a specific situation; a graphical, voiced, CRPG with a mute, text-driven protagonist. Books are an entirely different matter; when everything is text, then text works. As it happens, I'm a huge fan of fictional literature; I like text.

So a hybrid system of text and voice can't work? Maybe it does not work for you but it certainly has worked and continues to work in video games.

[Talogrungi]

TJSolo wrote...

That's an out of context tangent. I'm talking about a specific situation; a graphical, voiced, CRPG with a mute, text-driven protagonist. Books are an entirely different matter; when everything is text, then text works. As it happens, I'm a huge fan of fictional literature; I like text.

But not in the manner in which it was presented to us in Origins. The two media felt forced together and, imo, didn't mesh well in comparison to a voiced CRPG with a voiced protagonist. Perhaps I'm a purist on the basis that I am such a fan of both literature and CRPGs, but I would rather they remain separate .. that's just my preference.

So a hybrid system of text and voice can't work? Maybe it does not work for you but it certainly has worked and continues to work in video games.

As per the highlighted portions of my post that you didn't include in your quote; my opinion/preference.

Modifié par Talogrungi, 26 mars 2011 - 05:55 .

[TJSolo]

Your comment still reads like you are stating facts and includes the obligatory "imo" so you can play the opinion card as well.

[Lotion Soronarr]

You recall how BG handels the player name? How Drakensang handles it?

NPC characters are voiced, but they never say your name, altough it is written.

Written dialouge displayed on screen:
"You did good out there Awesomnus McKickass....Made us real proud!"

What the NPC sez:
"You did good out there...Made us real proud!"

[Faust1979]

TJSolo wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

I don't want to play as myself, that is why I play video games I find it a little weird that someone would play a game and make believe it's them

Let me put it like that: not you are your avatar, but your Avatar becomes you.

That is not possible with a voiced protagonist.

Thing is:

Voiced protagonist: You are the regisseur - you can give directions, but the player character still acts them out on its own, you can´t decide it completely

Unvoiced protagonist: You are the actor. the various dialogue options are what the regisseur presents, you chose what you feel best and how to act it.

Personally, I prefer acting over directing.

whether the the character is voiced or not it doesn't become me because it's a video game and not real

Then why are you in a thread discussing roleplaying and the disconnect that can occur with voice characters?

because i was answering the ops original question and as I said I don't feel a disonnect either way

[truestatic]

It was really weird when everyone talked except me. This is better ._.

[Faust1979]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Then why are you in a thread discussing roleplaying and the disconnect that can occur with voice characters?

I think most people here haven't actually role played ever. It's probably too nerdy.

I spent most of my JR High and Highschool years playing table top RPGs where you could actually roleplay your character and say what you want to say. But video game RPGs while fun aren't true roleplaying games and there is no real choice. You're just picking things that the makers want you to say so they can tell their story and make the world work. There's no true roleplaying involved

[Talogrungi]

TJSolo wrote...

Your comment still reads like you are stating facts and includes the obligatory "imo" so you can play the opinion card as well.

Ok, so you skim-read, missed my assertion that I was stating opinion/preference (twice), knee-jerk replied with a selective quote and a baseless accusation and now you're apparently berating me about it. classy.

Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?