193 réponses à ce sujet

[SupR G]

In case you don't know, David Gaider is the lead writer of Dragon Age 2. He was also the lead writer of Origins, Awakening and a couple other games in Bioware's portfolio. He leads a team of writers.

I really want to know how the writers of DA:O, who I think we can all agree did a phenomenal job, fell so unbelievably short in this game. I'm not saying that because I thought DA:2 was awful and I feel like finding a problem and e-raging. I am a writer, like them, and it's the story-driven element of Bioware's games that keeps me coming back for more. What they did here was so far out of the bounds of contemporary storytelling that it boggles my mind.

A major rule of writing a series is that each story must be self-contained and self-sustained. In effect that means NO cliffhanger endings and NO relying on sequels (or expansions) to complete the story of the respective episode (or game, in this case). Instead what Mr. Gaider did here was slap a story together, loosely connect it with small cameos and references to Origins, add subtext to a "greater threat" somewhere out in the world, use the word "Destiny" and call it a day. Constantly something was referenced and would remain unexplored and unexplained. This was done so often that it went beyond simple foreshadowing, and instead perpetually teased the audience and then didn't deliver it.

On top of all this, the writers offered virtually no alternate endings. Compared to Origins, this couldn't stand out any more, which offered more then 10 distinct possibilities? Depending on the final choice you make in Act 3, the ending is altered slightly, but since there is no closure for anything or anyone, we really have no way of seeing how any of the latter choices in DA:2 actually impact anything. What the hell? Ultimately whatever they tried to leave for a sequel in Origins, Awakening, and any of the DLC was completely unexplored. What was the purpose of Witch Hunt if not to act as a lead-in to Dragon Age 2? What purpose did Awakening really serve to the overall story, regardless of your decisions? Maybe we'll find out in Dragon Age... 4.

As for the character writing, well, to keep this spoiler-free all I can say is that it was hit and miss. Some characters, like Anders, were not written well enough. And Fenris? "Emo elf is EMO.... /wrist" We get it. Did he have to LOOK like an Emo too? On the other hand, characters like Carver were fantastic. All in all strong character writing only highlights a strong story, it's not a replacement.

So what this evidently comes down to is the game being 'rushed' by their publisher EA, or so the rumour wheel churns. Though Mr. Gaider could plead ignorance if that was the case, allowing a publisher or producer to tell you how to write a story is seriously wrong. This only negatively impacts his/her personal reputation, as well as the developer's. Developers like Bioware sometimes need to put their foot down and explain the fact that a quality game takes TIME. Whatever the case, Mr. Gaider and his team should be disappointed with themselves and I hope they learn from this.

PS: Please keep comments about mechanics, combat, and gameplay 'flaws' in other threads. Thanks.

Modifié par SupR G, 24 mars 2011 - 08:21 .

[v_ware]

I don't think the writers should be ashamed. The story is different, not the everyday run of the mill, let's save the world-plot. If they would've taken more then 18 months this would have been amazing. Not just good.

[Evolution33]

Where is it a rule that every story in a series has to be self contained?

[AkiKishi]

He's saying they have made fundamental errors in story writing. Which is true. But it's probably on purpose for the DLC/expansion etc.

The ending of DA2 is very disapointing because you know how it ends before you even start the game. Most games that use that sort of framed narrative "catch up" before the game ends and events then start to happen in real time.

Killzone 3 does this, the intro tutorial level is something that happens much later in the story. You sort of catch up to it via "flashback".

[Valcutio]

I agree. Carver and Bethany were the two best written characters in the game and it's a shame they didn't have more time spent on them. Anders was destroyed from Awakening.

Anyways, this will probably fall on deaf ears but after reading both of the DA novels from Mr. Gaider... DA2 was a let down. I know what he's capable of but it just seems like his heart wasn't in it.

[City6]

I love the whole framing device, and the idea behind hearing a decade-long tale from an unreliable narrator. It's all rather meta.

The problem is, it isn't done particularly well (clearly because they were given about 3 weeks to make it).

[SupR G]

Evolution33 wrote...

Where is it a rule that every story in a series has to be self contained?

An unwritten rule for any good writer. It's also considered to be a standard.

[CRISIS1717]

The story is terrible its time to get some new writers.

[Legbiter]

Your nerd rage tears of unfathomable sadness = delicious!

[Slugwood]

BobSmith101 wrote...
*snip*

The ending of DA2 is very disapointing because you know how it ends before you even start the game.

Really?  All I knew when I'd started was that a) Hawke is "the Champion," the Chantry is looking for Hawke, c) There's some kind of dire conflict, and d) Varric is no longer with Hawke.

Seems to me there's a lot missing there.

[Ghrelt]

I think the main problem that people have with this story has to do with what the writers decided to do with the entire intellectual property. I think they started with "this needs to happen in Thedas before we can branch out and do anything else". So they went about writing a story to make that event happen, and unfortunately this leads to a lack of differing conclusions to said story. The story is about the Champion, but in my opinion, the story wasn't about the Champion becoming a hero. The story was about how the Champion wasn't the villain. It was about establishing Hawke's lack of guilt in the eyes of the Chantry, and changing a core concept in the world of Thedas.

[Warheadz]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

The story is terrible its time to get some new writers.

As long as they are the same writers that did Origins, I disagree. If they are, it's time to get a new Laidlaw, in my opinion. The writers had the skills, so it is the leader's fault that he couldn't put them to the use.

[AkiKishi]

Slugwood wrote...
Really?  All I knew when I'd started was that a) Hawke is "the Champion," the Chantry is looking for Hawke, c) There's some kind of dire conflict, and d) Varric is no longer with Hawke.

Seems to me there's a lot missing there.

You know it will end with Hawke going missing. It means nothing you do will change that and you are just going through the motions to get to that outcome.

I prefer it like this.



That's the night before the "last" battle and everything that comes after is Tidus telling the story. However at some point that scene plays out in real time and the game catches up to itself. That means that you still experience things in real time without knowing how things will turn out.

[DragonKingReborn]

SupR G wrote...

Evolution33 wrote...

Where is it a rule that every story in a series has to be self contained?

An unwritten rule for any good writer. It's also considered to be a standard.

You may wish to try reading books seven, eight and eleven of the Wheel of Time, or ANY of the A Song of Ice and Fire books before standing by that statement.  ANYONE who claims Robert Jordan or George RR Martin aren't 'good' writers, needs to consider whether or not they've actually read any good books.

Also, almost any fantasy series, whether it be novels, films or, I guess, games, has a continuing story of some form.

And, finally, as far as I can tell, a cliffhanger ending is not mutually exclusive of a complete story.  Beginning, middle, end.  Those are the things a story needs.  The story was about how Hawke became the champion and why they are regarded as the most important person in the history of Thedas.  Those who have completed the game know these things.  Complete story.

[Maverick827]

SupR G wrote...

An unwritten rule for any good writer. It's also considered to be a standard.

Any good writer (though I hate following your No Scotsman with one of my own) knows that "unwritten rules" are a scam.

I think Vonnegut said it best:

1. Use the time of a total stranger in such a way that he or she will not feel the time was wasted.
2. Give the reader at least one character he or she can root for.
3. Every character should want something, even if it is only a glass of water.
4. Every sentence must do one of two things—reveal character or advance the action.
5. Start as close to the end as possible.
6. Be a sadist.  No matter sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them—in order that the reader may see what they are made of.
7. Write to please just one person.  If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia.
8. Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible.  To heck with suspense.  Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages.

The greatest American short story writer of my generation was Flannery O’Connor (1925-1964).  She broke practically every one of my rules but the first.  Great writers tend to do that.

Modifié par Maverick827, 24 mars 2011 - 08:45 .

[TheMadCat]

They tried something different it just didn't pan out as well as most hoped it would. Hardly anything to be ashamed about.

[Evolution33]

I wonder if people were this mad when The Empire Strikes Bakc came out or when they didn't know who shot JR?

[jbblue05]

The story was solid but it felt incomplete.like theis should be more to it

In Origins the ending completed the story.

And I don't like what happened to Anders.
What did Justice do to Anders?

[SupR G]

Ellythe wrote...

I think the main problem that people have with this story has to do with what the writers decided to do with the entire intellectual property. I think they started with "this needs to happen in Thedas before we can branch out and do anything else". So they went about writing a story to make that event happen, and unfortunately this leads to a lack of differing conclusions to said story. The story is about the Champion, but in my opinion, the story wasn't about the Champion becoming a hero. The story was about how the Champion wasn't the villain. It was about establishing Hawke's lack of guilt in the eyes of the Chantry, and changing a core concept in the world of Thedas.

You don't write a story to serve as a tool to establish another story.

[aries1001]

In DA: O, you, or another Warden, always kill the Archdemon. Yes, there are small and maybe minor or major changes in the ending slides, depending on what you do in say Orzammar or at the Circle. Nevertheless, you're destined to kill the Archdemon, because it is written that a Grey Warden shall kill the -ahem- big bad evil guy that -cough- leads the ancient evil - that - cough- threathens the land.

The story in DA2 is not the one we've seen many times before; it's a story about how a man or woman rises from poverty to wealth, and from obscurity to fame. This is story not about what can change the nature of man, but what a man or woman must to become the Champion (of the people) of Kirkwall...

[Tom Jolly]

 I share some of the OP's frustrations. Though, I am not inclined to blame the writers. There is some brilliance in the game's creative elements, some quality writing and game art.  There's just not enough of it, the game as a whole falls short.  

The OP is right to finger EA, or even the lead design team as the culprit, as everything points to a rushed cash-grab.  The ambitious changes from DA:O for this game are not a bad thing in and of themselves. However it is readily apparent that the production schedule was accelerated, at the expense of the overall game. Had the game been given a greater context, in the form of additional geogrpahic areas, additional character dialouge, and more continous plot-lines.... it may have lived up to the promises of its predecessor. 

[SupR G]

Warheadz wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

The story is terrible its time to get some new writers.

As long as they are the same writers that did Origins, I disagree. If they are, it's time to get a new Laidlaw, in my opinion. The writers had the skills, so it is the leader's fault that he couldn't put them to the use.

Laidlaw has nothing to do with the writing. He led the game's design team. The Lead Writer is in charge of the story and wriitng all the way from the plot to the little dialogue possibilities. That person was David Gaider.

[Johnsen1972]

David Gaider was probably told to make a story that only plays in a town so the designers could reuse the maps 100 times, during nights and days each act. So you cant blame him. He probably wanted to make an epic story playing outside Kirkwall

[Warheadz]

SupR G wrote...

Warheadz wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...

The story is terrible its time to get some new writers.

As long as they are the same writers that did Origins, I disagree. If they are, it's time to get a new Laidlaw, in my opinion. The writers had the skills, so it is the leader's fault that he couldn't put them to the use.

Laidlaw has nothing to do with the writing. He led the game's design team. The Lead Writer is in charge of the story and wriitng all the way from the plot to the little dialogue possibilities. That person was David Gaider.

Sorry, my mistake. Sleep deprivation, my nemesis.

[SupR G]

DragonKingReborn wrote...

SupR G wrote...

Evolution33 wrote...

Where is it a rule that every story in a series has to be self contained?

An unwritten rule for any good writer. It's also considered to be a standard.

You may wish to try reading books seven, eight and eleven of the Wheel of Time, or ANY of the A Song of Ice and Fire books before standing by that statement.  ANYONE who claims Robert Jordan or George RR Martin aren't 'good' writers, needs to consider whether or not they've actually read any good books.

Also, almost any fantasy series, whether it be novels, films or, I guess, games, has a continuing story of some form.

And, finally, as far as I can tell, a cliffhanger ending is not mutually exclusive of a complete story.  Beginning, middle, end.  Those are the things a story needs.  The story was about how Hawke became the champion and why they are regarded as the most important person in the history of Thedas.  Those who have completed the game know these things.  Complete story.

Right, a beginning, middle and end. Except there is no end. Instead it's a "to be continued..." It gets old when people confuse bad writing with writers trying to "break the mold" or some stupidity like that. Gaider knows how to write, he did it right before and he failed now and I'm sure he knows it.