193 réponses à ce sujet

[Speakeasy13]

Personally I think the DA2 story is lackluster but I wouldn't go as far as the OP did in blasting the writing team. I consider it an experiment that produced subpar results. Pet on the back to Dave and co. for trying something different, next time let's go back to the tried and true formula of things.

[Dark Specie]

Hatchetman77 wrote...

The game had some astoundly good writing in it, particularily everything involving the Qunari.  The story really just needed a few more passes over it and rewrites to give it some focus. For that I blame the shortened development cycle.  The lazy ending was a particular disapointment though. I don't think anyone could defend the plot device of magical mcguffins making people go co-co for cocopuffs a decent ending.  It boarders on a Deus Ex Machina ending.

And yet, offical word is that "Act 3 turned out exactly like we wanted it to!"

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

I don't own a copy of the game so I haven't played it all the way through and doubt I shall but the story doesn't seem so bad from the parts I saw. I don't think the writers should feel ashamed. Now the writers for NWN 1 should feel ashamed, that story was really painful, especially after the BG series. Everything else feels like gold after the NWN 1 official campaign, haha.

If you haven't played through the whole game, thne how can you understand it's flaws?  . Particullary as it's act 3 that people has a problem with - The prologue, act 1 & 2 are accepted by most people, whereas act 3 is what makes a vein pop on most people's heads.

Can't decide if this or NWN 1 offical campaign is the worst one though

[Deadmac]

BobSmith101 wrote...

You know it will end with Hawke going missing. It means nothing you do will change that and you are just going through the motions to get to that outcome.

"Knights of the Old Republic II". When you get to the game's end, the exile just vanishes into the unknown regions.

[EccentricSage]

You can critique writing without insulting the authors in such a way. I mean, really, who the hell is OP to decide how other people should feel?

From what I'm seeing in youtube videos, there are some moments of bad VA (Fenris) and really poor facial animations in many conversations. Poor implementation can really hurt the writing. As for the writing it's self, a lot of the concepts seem great to me, but some of the dialogue gets pretty cheesy, and not in the self aware tongue in cheek way we saw in Origins. I think what we see it a concept and characters that could have been so much better, but the corner cutting and spotty implementation is apparent in most aspects of the game. Yes, I am still pissed off that what could have been a great game and great story suffered terribly from being rushed.

I think it's great for the writers to try something different, btw.  The mistake was that they tried it for the wrong game.  When you have a one year development cycle, you should really stick with what you already know will work and build off what was already created in the previous game, because that takes less time.  Save the grand experiment and massive gameplay and art design changes for a game where you have sufficient time to refine everything.  If DA2 were superbly implamented, there would still be squabling and grumbling over some of the gameplay changes, and the typical character fandom rivalries, but probably not the backlash and mixed reviews they are seeing now.

In short, I would not question Gaider's integrity and good intentions.  The implementation and flaws in some details are fair game, and people can like or dislike whatever they please, but acuseing him of being about the money, or writing at the whims of EA, is just childish.

Gaider has his own principles.  If he were writing for easy money and target demographics, you wouldn't see him ralying for equality or defending characters like Zevran who get unjustly raged about both by gays and homophobes.  He even saw to it that Zevran showed up in 2 and some loose ends were tied up for his fans.  If he were about the money, we never would have seen Zevran again, resources being alocated to the larger demographic.  I respect Gaider.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 25 mars 2011 - 12:48 .

[Hurrrr]

Could everyone please chill out a tad? Its just a game.

OP : I kind of agree, to me it felt like I was playing grand theft auto at one point. At the end of the game ive never been less invested in a plot line 0.o I honestly was startled by how blah the whole thing was. I dont need the same damn plot line over and over again sure, but hey, at least deal it the same level of respect as Mass Effect 2. Tease me with an overarching plot! Have SOME sort of conclusion even if its not for the primary plotline. Watching the car crash of an ending where I had nill empathy for either side involved was just not swish

[Vicious]

Well they definetly screwed up with the cliffhanger ending. There's no guarantee of a DA3 from press I've read.

[Estelindis]

I strongly disagree with the OP. I think writing was one of DA2's strongest points. The implications of many quests from Act I were not fully felt until we played their follow-on quests years later. Instead of having a string of totally unrelated quests, this helped to solidify the narrative by giving us lots of hooks to what we'd already done - building on what had happened before allowed Bioware to go ever higher and higher with many of their quests. Bit by bit, they built up and added to each other until we get a sense of unbearable tension between templars and mages. We understand how and why these things came to pass, but in the face of such emotions we can't just produce a neat and handy way of settling the differences. Then the matter is taken out of our hands in the most dramatic and shocking way possible.

I agree that I'd prefer not to have faced yet another cliffhanger ending where my character disappears to a fate as yet unknown. But I think it's unreasonable to emphasise this single feature of the ending disproportionately. The game has a wealth of brilliant writing in its other parts.

[scpulley]

Johnsen1972 wrote...

David Gaider was probably told to make a story that only plays in a town so the designers could reuse the maps 100 times, during nights and days each act. So you cant blame him. He probably wanted to make an epic story playing outside Kirkwall

It would have helped if no matter what you fight everyone at the end regardless so basically, it doesn't matter at all who you side with. After all that talk, literally you can pick either side and it's almost identical at the end. It's beyond stupid.

[Delixe]

Vicious wrote...

Well they definetly screwed up with the cliffhanger ending. There's no guarantee of a DA3 from press I've read.

It's all about money and figures when it comes to publishers. There will be a Dragon Age 3 that is a given based on the performance of Origins. Questions will be raised as to why DA2 didn't perform well and there will be two possible outcomes.

1) Bioware will point to the hate campaign and bad press as people who 'didn't get it' and that seems to be what Mr Laidlaw is saying. They will push on with Dragon Age 3 and push it even further into the mainstream, pretty much making it Dragon May Cry.

2) EA will point to the feedback and question why radical changes were made to Dragon Age when fans were almost universally opposed to them. They will also point to the critics who on the whole agree with the fans. The whole Dragon Age team will be forced to go back to the drawing board and take the positives from both games, this will take at least 3 years but we will have a much better and more satisfying product.

Those who are quick to dismiss EA as purveyors of shovelware should be reminded EA don't do innovation. It would actually be in their nature to go back to what works.

[Dark Specie]

Rojahar wrote...

In DAO, no matter what, the Blight ends. Apparently that means our choices don't matter. /eyeroll

Yep. But ending it was also the overall goal of the game. And we did have a certain influence on how things turned out - Who became the ruler,  what happened to the factions mint he game, whether the dwaves got a traditionalist or a reformer on the throne, etc... You got the feeling that you actually changed the world (for the better or worse) as you went out to stop the Blight.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Well.. I'm quite satisfied with how the Qunari's conflict are written despite the lack of choices to change the outcome. To me... the story ends and serve it's purpose when Hawke become the champion in Act 2. Whatever message, the story is trying to tell me in Act 3, fail flat as I have no interest to find out more. I don't care what happen to Hawke. Right from beginning till ends, I'm disturbed and unhappy by the way third person narrative and how dialogue POVs are being dealt with. One thing I always like in my RPG is deep feeling inside the word and how my action affect the endings ( Origins: choices for Dark Ritual or Ultimate Sacrifice or Other Warden's Sacrifice ). I don't feel that in DA 2. The personal/emotional attachment to Hawke is as shallow as main characters of novels and movies. Maybe I was so used of living inside RPG fantasy where my enjoyment is mainly derived from my imagination. Therefore it's hard to perceive whatever message the game trying to tell; whether the writers intention to challenge the readers to question the truth of story or moral value behind Anders/Fenris reaction through out the game etc... None of this successfully develop my immersion with my disheartening feeling as I watch Hawke isn't mine.

The story has ending. Act 2 is the ending. Hawke has archive his goal to become the Champion of Kirkwall. I couldn't care less of what happen next. To the writers, you have fail in my eyes. Next time, try to grab me deeper into your story or rather give me more choices to shape my own story within your frame. A lot of background information to start the character, more meaningful main plot's choices and more different endings. Plan your story wisely so I don't keep face palming with your plague of unjustified resurrected dead NPCs and stop treating PC as the chosen one. It's getting tiresome and illogical ( apostate blood magic Hawke dealing with the templars and law ) to the point it's no longer fun as you claimed.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 25 mars 2011 - 01:12 .

[Altima Darkspells]

Deadmac wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

You know it will end with Hawke going missing. It means nothing you do will change that and you are just going through the motions to get to that outcome.

"Knights of the Old Republic II". When you get to the game's end, the exile just vanishes into the unknown regions.

At least there was an ending.  Yes, the Exile just flew off in her cool ship, but you knew what happened, at the very least, to your companions.

In DA2, the game just stopped, said Hawke disappeared, and everyone else just sorta ****ed off.

Plus, you know, Obsidian actually did have an ending--Lucasarts just didn't like it.  BioWare did what they did in DA2 on purpose, so what's their excuse?

[Onyx Jaguar]

Estelindis wrote...

I strongly disagree with the OP. I think writing was one of DA2's strongest points. The implications of many quests from Act I were not fully felt until we played their follow-on quests years later. Instead of having a string of totally unrelated quests, this helped to solidify the narrative by giving us lots of hooks to what we'd already done - building on what had happened before allowed Bioware to go ever higher and higher with many of their quests. Bit by bit, they built up and added to each other until we get a sense of unbearable tension between templars and mages. We understand how and why these things came to pass, but in the face of such emotions we can't just produce a neat and handy way of settling the differences. Then the matter is taken out of our hands in the most dramatic and shocking way possible.

I agree that I'd prefer not to have faced yet another cliffhanger ending where my character disappears to a fate as yet unknown. But I think it's unreasonable to emphasise this single feature of the ending disproportionately. The game has a wealth of brilliant writing in its other parts.

I agree with this

[maladictor2009]

The story was horrible in DA2. Hawke does not matter at all in this game.

And it felt like playing tekken survival mode.

[Onyx Jaguar]

How was it horrible?

Bioware standards are generally the standard super plot heavily laded with intangibles. KOTOR, Mass Effect and even Dragon Age

DA2 focused on the best aspect of DA1 the political turmoil and expanded on that.

Act 2 and what happens with the Qunari is one of the most intense aspects to the game

And Hawke does matter in that segment

Act 3 I did not mind because the **** hit the fan and you were simply reacting. Felt much more genuine then deciding the ruler of an underground society.

[AkiKishi]

Altima Darkspells wrote...

Deadmac wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

You know it will end with Hawke going missing. It means nothing you do will change that and you are just going through the motions to get to that outcome.

"Knights of the Old Republic II". When you get to the game's end, the exile just vanishes into the unknown regions.

At least there was an ending.  Yes, the Exile just flew off in her cool ship, but you knew what happened, at the very least, to your companions.

In DA2, the game just stopped, said Hawke disappeared, and everyone else just sorta ****ed off.

Plus, you know, Obsidian actually did have an ending--Lucasarts just didn't like it.  BioWare did what they did in DA2 on purpose, so what's their excuse?

Anyone who has a problem with the end of KOTOR II google "KOTOR2 cut content" and prepare some tissues.

[VanDraegon]

Ashamed? Hardly. The story was good. No need to be so over dramatic.

[Clonedzero]

KOTOR had a cliffhanger ending.
ME2 had a cliffhanger ending.

its not that rare in bioware games actually lol.

[AndarianTD]

SupR G wrote...

I am a writer, like them, and it's the story-driven element of Bioware's games that keeps me coming back for more. What they did here was so far out of the bounds of contemporary storytelling that it boggles my mind.

I am also a writer, and your comments below are so far out of the bounds of legitimate criticism that it boggles my mind.

A major rule of writing a series is that each story must be self-contained and self-sustained. In effect that means NO cliffhanger endings and NO relying on sequels (or expansions) to complete the story of the respective episode (or game, in this case).

Nonsense on stilts. According to whom? Should I start running off a list of classic works of fiction that don't follow this "major rule" of yours? Each of the three volumes of the Lord of the Rings trilogy? Pretty much every book of the Wheel of Time Series? Please.

Instead what Mr. Gaider did here was slap a story together, loosely connect it with small cameos and references to Origins...

Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark and Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer (to take just two examples) both drew on and connected their story to earlier installments. MOTB was a sequel, and in HOTU (as in DAII) you played a different character who encountered a number of characters and companions from the earlier game. Those examples could be multiplied. Do they all violate your "major rule?" By what logic or standard is it a "rule" at all when so many excellent works violate it?

...add subtext to a "greater threat" somewhere out in the world, use the word "Destiny" and call it a day.

You know, aggressively throwing out a string of aspersions does not constitute making an argument. If you have some legitimate criticism of the story in DAII, then please offer it instead of this contentless invective.

Constantly something was referenced and would remain unexplored and unexplained. This was done so often that it went beyond simple foreshadowing, and instead perpetually teased the audience and then didn't deliver it.

There is nothing wrong and everything right with doing this -- especially when you are developing part of a wider story IP for which you're planning future works. A good fantasy doesn't dump all of its exposition, background and culture all at once. It does it gradually, in hints that whet the reader's or player's curiosity and are progressively developed more fully over time, so that the player is gently immersed into the world and the work.

On top of all this, the writers offered virtually no alternate endings.

A large variety of alternate endings is not required for a good story. If anything, I would argue that too many plot and theme inconsistent endings make for an inferior story, not a better one.

I could go on, but I really don't think this rant deserves any more attention than it's already received. If anyone ought to feel ashamed, it's certainly not Mr. Gaider, who is being abused here for the achievement of writing what is, in my considered judgement, a terrific story in DAII.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 25 mars 2011 - 03:49 .

[Apple Sauce]

Clonedzero wrote...

KOTOR had a cliffhanger ending.
ME2 had a cliffhanger ending.

its not that rare in bioware games actually lol.

ME2 had a cliffhanger ending? Do you even know what a cliffhanger ending is? Seriously?

[Apple Sauce]

AndarianTD wrote...

You know, aggressively throwing out a string of aspersions does not constitute an argument. If you have some legitimate criticism to make of the story in DAII, then please offer it instead of this contentless invective.

You can't pick out specifics without giving spoilers. In case you didn't know, there's no spoilers allowed here. And why do people quote books and movies that clearly did not use cheap cliffhangers, were superiorly written compared to Dragon Age 2, and yet use them to support their arguments? Each LOTR novel was self-contained and tolkien wrote each book in succession following a classic trilogy story arc. The OP is talking about standards and rules applied to storytelling since times before even Shakespeare. Being "artistic" or "original" is not an excuse for poor writing.

[Dark Specie]

Clonedzero wrote...

KOTOR had a cliffhanger ending.
ME2 had a cliffhanger ending.

its not that rare in bioware games actually lol.

KOTOR had a cliffhanger ending? You must be thinking about KOTOR 2, pal...

[WDratt]

i'll just say...very disappointing...
It almost feels like this was the first and DA:O the improved sequel...(talking about game mechanics, story line, side quests, character flexibility...)...even the maps....every cave is the same!!! Every house the same... the "world" map is puny compared to DA:O...you keep going back to the same cave, the same mini-map...argh...what a waste!!!

[Faust1979]

 all stories must be self contained? tell that to these authors

Stephen King
George R R Martin
J R R Tolkien
C S Lewis