193 réponses à ce sujet

[Kasces]

I disagree strongly with the OP and other critics. The writing, like most Bioware games, is the best part and DA 2 is no different. If you've been keeping up with the game since it was announced, we always know the Champion ties into specific events, and that he is missing. Varric is telling what happened. The game does not have to go into what happens (present tense) because that is not the purpose of the game, it never was and Bioware never acted like it. It is a self contained story because we find out why Hawke is Champion and how Hawke plays into events afterward that change Thedas forever.

Not counting the prologue as an act:

Act 1 is not useless, it is to get you immersed in the city and enviroment. When the purpose is to get enough money to go on an expedition, what else did you think you were going to do? Sidequests tie directly into the main story in this way and I didn't have to use a money cheat to get decent gear.

Act 2 is about the Qunari and Act 3 the climax. Hawke's choices matter with the Qunari, at least how he handles them, and Act 3 has one outcome because there was always going to be one outcome, isn't that why Cassandra is searching for Hawke? Was there an expectation Bioware would have multiple "legendary" and unique outcomes that all equally shape Thedas in the same fantastical, revolutionary manner? lolwut?

You may not like cliffhangers but there lies no hint of inherently bad writing in a cliffhanger.

The only thing I do not like is the slow animation bug, which is not writing, and how none of the specializations got any NPC reaction, which I thought they would do this time around, and then one Mama Hawke line in the prologue (when she says she will never forget the child who dies, why would she,as a mother, ever forget?) I actually like the story more than Origins. Origins feels epic because it was in development for years, and was meant to be. DA 2 is a more personal, and essentially loose narrative since Varric embellishes, about the origins and misconception of a legend. The story's feel so different because they are two different stories.

Modifié par Kasces, 25 mars 2011 - 03:28 .

[AndarianTD]

Apple Sauce wrote...

AndarianTD wrote...

You know, aggressively throwing out a string of aspersions does not constitute an argument. If you have some legitimate criticism to make of the story in DAII, then please offer it instead of this contentless invective.

You can't pick out specifics without giving spoilers. In case you didn't know, there's no spoilers allowed here.

Then the OP should have posted his comments on the spoilers forum where he could have said what was nececessary to make them sensible and objective. Besides, there are plenty of ways that he could have made his point spoiler-free -- starting, for example, with an argument justifying the assertion that all good works of fiction should be self-contained.

And why do people quote books and movies that clearly did not use cheap cliffhangers, were superiorly written compared to Dragon Age 2, and yet use them to support their arguments? Each LOTR novel was self-contained and tolkien wrote each book in succession following a classic trilogy story arc.

No, each LOTR novel was NOT self-contained. That's patently obvious from even a cursory examination of the plot. The ending of The Two Towers, for example, leaves the reader completely hanging with regard to Frodo's fate. Readers of the WoT have gotten used to having major plot threads left hanging for decades, waiting for them to be tied up in later volumes (which they eventually are). Again, these examples could be multiplied, but frankly the argument they address doesn't merit the attention. All you have to do is to point to one of the serialized installments of a classic Dumas novel, like The Count of Monte Cristo or The Three Musketeers, to refute it.

And please don't respond that "well written books aren't a counter argument because they're well written and DAII isn't." That's what in basic logic we call the fallacy of Begging the Question. The allegation that DAII wasn't self-contained was being proffered as a reason why the writing was supposed to be bad to begin with.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 25 mars 2011 - 03:46 .

[Azazel005]

SupR G wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Popular entertainment/well told stories that ended in cliff hangers: Zha'ha'dum (Babylon 5 Season , Hugo Award Winner, J. Michael Strazynski), Changes (Dresden Files, Jim Butcher), Empire Strikes Back (Star Wars ep. 5 George Lucas), What Kind of Day it Has Been (West Wing Season 1, Aaron Sorkin), Best of Both Worlds Part One (Star Trek: The Next Generation, Season 3, Michael Pillar, TV Guide's 100 greatest TV moments), Batman: The Long Halloween (Jim Loeb/Tim Sales DC comics 13 issue series).

I could go on, but I think the point's been made. cliffhangers are an acceptable method of writing in a serial format, which Dragon Age is turning out to be. And if I may point out, DA 2 does not fit the classic definition of a cliffhanger as Hawke's story as Champion is complete by the end of the narrative and there is the requirement that the main character or one of the main characters in an ensamble be in peril (Han's frozen in carbonite, Picard as Borg, Sheridan alive or dead etc) none of those things are true for tbe characters of DA2. Hawke's rise to power is self contained, it's what effect Hawke's actions have on the world which leaves one wondering.

Humm. Empire Strikes Back had a cliffhanger ending? The story of Empire Strikes Back had a beginning, middle and end. What happened in the final minutes served to perpetuate the trilogy, yes, but in no way did it just drop off. The main story of Star Wars went onwards, and the story of Empire ended. That was also an established trilogy. Also an episodic series with 30-minute episodes using two-parters is not the same. Grabbing moments in time people used cliffhangers and claiming that it's an "acceptable method of writing" because they used them is kind of ignorant.

How many times will we here this? HOW is the games narrative unresolved? Hawke's ultimate fate is not a part of the narrative, the underlying effects of continent are not a part of the narrative, the reaction of the chantry to said events are not a part of the narrative.

Don't condescend everyone reading your post as a person that doesn't understand writing, their is a potential plot thread alluded to in an effort to 'tease' the player, that's not a cliffhanger thats nothing like a cliffhanger in fact that has very little to do with the narrative as whole.

Some of the writing was excellent in the game some not so much, the plot was superior the setting not really as strong, I have no problem with a singular city (Sigil, Amn all made for great settings) but this one didn't develop itself so well.

[AngelicMachinery]

Carver was just as whiny as Fenris and Anders.

[Silveryne]

How dare DA2 tell the story of an individual's rise to power and leave a door ajar so they can continue this story later without it having to feel forced, but instead like an organic progression.

Drives me insane when people try to portray the world as it is.

[jones0901]

OP, i cant say i agree with the notion that all writing, especially in the fantasy genre need contain a completed, contained i ithink you say story.....the first two Lord of the Rings do not have self contained endings, no do the Song of fire and ice books. moreoever, you should change your terminology as cliff hanger is an ending more "in media res" than what you seem to be claiming for DA2
i do agree with you that the story tends to feel clunky and forcibly connected, however, YET IF YOU CONCEPTUALIZE DA2 as a piece of a larger story, alot of your problems with a lack of origins/awakening/witch hunt continuity are easier to deal with.
realize DA2 is an impacting development in the world of Thedas,
in the battle between mage and templar, a fundamental balance in the power dynamics of Thedas has shifted, this sets up new and interesting conflicts that place the world on the brink, and ripe for the changes alluded to by Morrigan and Flemith
it also establishes Hawke as a major player, on par with the Warden in world events. Thedas needs important characters like this

[lx_theo]

Wait what? So any story with any sort of cliffhanger automatically equals fail apparently? Lol. The story was quite good. It was a good story about Hawkes rise to power in itself, and did a good job of making clear that this was the event that was the catalyst to a mysterious major conflict. Good stuff.

[Lacan2]

Did so well in DAO? The plot was mediocre in DAO.

It's the whole "save the world from the ultimate evil" crap again, and in stereotypical fashion, it's a dragon. It was one of Bioware's worst overall plots of any game they've ever made. Only the characters saved it.

Modifié par Lacan2, 25 mars 2011 - 04:24 .

[5ubzer0]

txgoldrush wrote...

I think DAO's story is cliched and generic to the point where I really felt it. The side stories were good, but I cannot help thinking...oooh, its Lordo fthe Rings again.

DAII, instead, is Biowares best written work since Baldur's Gate II. Instead of a cliched hero defeats evil story...they did a biopic about a woman (I perfer Lady Hawke) is caught in the social conflicts of Kirkwall, which leads to all out war.

I checked to make sure Chris Avellone didn't write this...yep, it was really David Gaider. His writing has improved drastically.

This.

Although I am not happy about being stuck in Kirkwall for 7 years, at least the story focuses on a political conflict, not a kill-the-dragon-save-the-world scenario. What I consider DAII's greatest accomplishment is the fact that it made me care about my companions. Finally, they have stories of their own that go beyond the help-me-kill-my- evil-former-master format. Well, at least some of them.

[EccentricSage]

5ubzer0 wrote...

Finally, they have stories of their own that go beyond the help-me-kill-my- evil-former-master format. Well, at least some of them.

The only companion with a story of that nature in Origins was Lelliana, except it wasn't her master, it was her old LI.  She was not a slave, and had gotten herself into that whole mess with Marjolain herself.

Zevran was a slave, but he never actually asks anything of the Warden except for some understanding and friendship. 

None of the others relate to the scenario you mention at all.

[5ubzer0]

EccentricSage wrote...

The only companion with a story of that nature in Origins was Lelliana, except it wasn't her master, it was her old LI.  She was not a slave, and had gotten herself into that whole mess with Marjolain herself.

Zevran was a slave, but he never actually asks anything of the Warden except for some understanding and friendship. 

None of the others relate to the scenario you mention at all.

Obviously DAO spoilers following:

Morrigan - kill her mom.
Zevran - kill his former buddy who represents the wrath of the crows
Leli - kill her former lover.

In all these relationships there is a tangible power differential between companions and whoever they want to see dead. For that reason, I stand by my original post.

[TheWhitefire]

*puts on his padded armor to deflect some nerd rage*

As a lover of Fantasy and Writing myself, I'm going to make my post without all the emotional baggage that everyone else is tossing in, and put it in simple point form.

In My Humbled Opinion:

Pros
- Personal story I enjoyed. Being able to hear the character's voice as you picked various options was big for me, and I felt that the conversations brought in good from the Mass Effect games and joined them with the Dragon Age Origins games.
- Cultural exploration of the Qunari and the Templar/Mage relationship. The Templar/Mage thing was referred to in the first game, but I never really understood the Apostates side, since the Mage origin made things look really kinda.. well, not great, but certainly not worse than being on the lamb for the rest of my life. Qunari were really only explored by proxy through the Sten, and never really 'felt'.
-- Your party members tended to actually have a more active role in the world around you. Aveline was the Captain of the Guard, your siblings either die in the deep roads with you, or disappear to join one of the two warring factions depending on which one came with you.
-- The detailed exploration of a single city was awesome. I felt like my character actually had a stake in what became of Kirkwall.
-- Not a stellar story for a game, but it's still less railroaded than Jade Empire, and I would still rather play DA2 than JE (although I really think they should do a JE2 with a fighting engine similar to DA2's.)
--- I know its a mechanical thing, but... come on! The combat engine is WAY improved from Dragon Age. I still remember getting tossed by an Ogre Smash that happened from across the battelfield even though I ran away before the attack was finished.


Cons:
-- Some of the characters come off as a little two dimensional, for example your mother. Act 3 didn't offer enough guidance in terms of where to go to progress the story. It was only out of desperation that I eventually checked my letters on my first play through, and was able to progress the plot. Even on my second playthrough I felt a little like I was being railroaded.
-- I was never a fan of the "Open Play" format (akin to GTA or Red Dead Redemption--the latter of which is still an excellent game despite the open play thing), and did always prefer the more branched path style of story telling found in NWN2 and DA:O.
-- By Act 2, I don't think I should still be running errands. That was a little bit of a pet peeve to me. Although, same goes for most of DA:O and... well, every game Bioware ever did.
-- Game is on par with NWN2, but not the level of game that DA:O left me wanting. And I don't think we can even blame the rush. I think we can blame the experimentation with framed story telling.
-- A carry over from my miffing with ME1 and 2: Where's me dwarf?
-- What happened to Morrigan and your child? I seriously thought DA:2 was going to focus on your love-child, since Witch Hunt made such a huge deal out of him.


That's my 2 cents.

[rpx78noob]

As far as i know Star Wars Knights of Old Republic and Sith Lords, along with Origins follow up a classic story build. They worked, people loved it. What's wrong with that? More of good stuff? Why not? If DA2 was developed like Origins, well, that could have been intriguing. But Origins took 4, 5 years, right? Maybe that made the difference.. And about the end, it looked like "Heroes" tv episodes endings.

Modifié par rpx78noob, 25 mars 2011 - 05:01 .

[jimmy_smith]

I love DA:II story
IMO It's the only thing that DA:II > DA:O

[Apple Sauce]

Azazel005 wrote...

SupR G wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Popular entertainment/well told stories that ended in cliff hangers: Zha'ha'dum (Babylon 5 Season , Hugo Award Winner, J. Michael Strazynski), Changes (Dresden Files, Jim Butcher), Empire Strikes Back (Star Wars ep. 5 George Lucas), What Kind of Day it Has Been (West Wing Season 1, Aaron Sorkin), Best of Both Worlds Part One (Star Trek: The Next Generation, Season 3, Michael Pillar, TV Guide's 100 greatest TV moments), Batman: The Long Halloween (Jim Loeb/Tim Sales DC comics 13 issue series).

I could go on, but I think the point's been made. cliffhangers are an acceptable method of writing in a serial format, which Dragon Age is turning out to be. And if I may point out, DA 2 does not fit the classic definition of a cliffhanger as Hawke's story as Champion is complete by the end of the narrative and there is the requirement that the main character or one of the main characters in an ensamble be in peril (Han's frozen in carbonite, Picard as Borg, Sheridan alive or dead etc) none of those things are true for tbe characters of DA2. Hawke's rise to power is self contained, it's what effect Hawke's actions have on the world which leaves one wondering.

Humm. Empire Strikes Back had a cliffhanger ending? The story of Empire Strikes Back had a beginning, middle and end. What happened in the final minutes served to perpetuate the trilogy, yes, but in no way did it just drop off. The main story of Star Wars went onwards, and the story of Empire ended. That was also an established trilogy. Also an episodic series with 30-minute episodes using two-parters is not the same. Grabbing moments in time people used cliffhangers and claiming that it's an "acceptable method of writing" because they used them is kind of ignorant.

How many times will we here this? HOW is the games narrative unresolved? Hawke's ultimate fate is not a part of the narrative, the underlying effects of continent are not a part of the narrative, the reaction of the chantry to said events are not a part of the narrative.

Don't condescend everyone reading your post as a person that doesn't understand writing, their is a potential plot thread alluded to in an effort to 'tease' the player, that's not a cliffhanger thats nothing like a cliffhanger in fact that has very little to do with the narrative as whole.

Some of the writing was excellent in the game some not so much, the plot was superior the setting not really as strong, I have no problem with a singular city (Sigil, Amn all made for great settings) but this one didn't develop itself so well.

There's no problem with you disagreeing with an opinion, but don't dare say that this story didn't end on a cliffhanger. Just about everyone can agree that it did. Whether or not it's a bad thing is up for debate. At the risk of spoilers, we can't get into specifics but the entire third act was unresolved at the end. Making a choice, having a final battle, walking off screen and having the equivalent of a "to be continued..." play out in a short cutscene is the absolute definition of a cliffhanger ending. That's what happened.

So here's the opinion part: This isn't a book. This isn't fan fiction. This isn't Dragon Age 2 Part 1. It's bad writing, plain and simple.

[Apple Sauce]

jones0901 wrote...

OP, i cant say i agree with the notion that all writing, especially in the fantasy genre need contain a completed, contained i ithink you say story.....the first two Lord of the Rings do not have self contained endings, no do the Song of fire and ice books. moreoever, you should change your terminology as cliff hanger is an ending more "in media res" than what you seem to be claiming for DA2
i do agree with you that the story tends to feel clunky and forcibly connected, however, YET IF YOU CONCEPTUALIZE DA2 as a piece of a larger story, alot of your problems with a lack of origins/awakening/witch hunt continuity are easier to deal with.
realize DA2 is an impacting development in the world of Thedas,
in the battle between mage and templar, a fundamental balance in the power dynamics of Thedas has shifted, this sets up new and interesting conflicts that place the world on the brink, and ripe for the changes alluded to by Morrigan and Flemith
it also establishes Hawke as a major player, on par with the Warden in world events. Thedas needs important characters like this

I say this with an honest, non-raging tone. You are defending the story by claiming that it is necessary to set up another story. Dragon Age 2 shouldn't serve as a prelude to Dragon Age 3. Leading into an expansion or a third game is fine, but in no way should the next game offer a conclusion to the third act events of DA:2. The first two Lord of the Rings DO have endings and conclusions to their own sub-plots, and the only reason you don't say that about the third is because it concluded the trilogy.

[lltoon]

Evolution33 wrote...

Where is it a rule that every story in a series has to be self contained?

The rule only applies for good stories.

[Apple Sauce]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Carver was just as whiny as Fenris and Anders.

Yes, well Carver changes by the third act. How does Fenris or Anders change? They are the same flat character through the entire game regardless of the choices you make with them. Can't get into it further without spoilers, sorry.

[johook213]

Lacan2 wrote...

Did so well in DAO? The plot was mediocre in DAO.

It's the whole "save the world from the ultimate evil" crap again, and in stereotypical fashion, it's a dragon. It was one of Bioware's worst overall plots of any game they've ever made. Only the characters saved it.

I have to agree here.  If you strip DA:O down to a bare plot, it is mediocre, at best.  What attracted me was the world and it's history/lore.... they did a fantastic job of fleshing out Thedas.  And let's not forget the characters. Oh my.  Morrigan, Alistair, Zevran, Shale, Wynne, Oghren, Leliana, and Sten are some of my most favorite characters in fiction. 

[srieser]

DA:2 doesn't have to lead into another game. The story stands on it's own. This story is like the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand or The Boston Tea Party. It's a singular event that kicked off a historical buzz saw.

[MCPOWill]

Writing - Top notch 10
Presentation - Intriguing and Fresh 10
Story - Good conflict and tension if underemphasized Had no arcing plot to it (ie Blight in DAO, Reapers/Saren/Collectors in ME series) 7
Overall - 9

No I don't think they need to be ashamed of themselves. They did a mighty fine job overall and did something different in which I wasn't all ready familiar with the layout.

If anyone should be ashamed on the DA2 team, it's the tester from not finding some of the more obvious game breaking bugs such as attack speed slowdown and import bugs in general.

[Apple Sauce]

AndarianTD wrote...

Apple Sauce wrote...

AndarianTD wrote...

You know, aggressively throwing out a string of aspersions does not constitute an argument. If you have some legitimate criticism to make of the story in DAII, then please offer it instead of this contentless invective.

You can't pick out specifics without giving spoilers. In case you didn't know, there's no spoilers allowed here.

Then the OP should have posted his comments on the spoilers forum where he could have said what was nececessary to make them sensible and objective. Besides, there are plenty of ways that he could have made his point spoiler-free -- starting, for example, with an argument justifying the assertion that all good works of fiction should be self-contained.

And why do people quote books and movies that clearly did not use cheap cliffhangers, were superiorly written compared to Dragon Age 2, and yet use them to support their arguments? Each LOTR novel was self-contained and tolkien wrote each book in succession following a classic trilogy story arc.

No, each LOTR novel was NOT self-contained. That's patently obvious from even a cursory examination of the plot. The ending of The Two Towers, for example, leaves the reader completely hanging with regard to Frodo's fate. Readers of the WoT have gotten used to having major plot threads left hanging for decades, waiting for them to be tied up in later volumes (which they eventually are). Again, these examples could be multiplied, but frankly the argument they address doesn't merit the attention. All you have to do is to point to one of the serialized installments of a classic Dumas novel, like The Count of Monte Cristo or The Three Musketeers, to refute it.

And please don't respond that "well written books aren't a counter argument because they're well written and DAII isn't." That's what in basic logic we call the fallacy of Begging the Question. The allegation that DAII wasn't self-contained was being proffered as a reason why the writing was supposed to be bad to begin with.

You decided to leave out the point I made about LOTR following a "classic trilogy story arc". I guess since you're a "writer" and all, you definitely know and understand what that is. But if you'll put down your staff of wisdom, oh great sage, allow me to remind you.

In the world of literature, a trilogy story arc follows an overall plot that begins in the first book, rises in the second, climaxes and resolves in the last. Each book has it's own sub-plot, with its own exposition, rising action, climax, falling action and conclusion. While the first two books continue to perpetuate the trilogy, the third book, again with it's own sub-plot, has two resolutions and a final conclusion. This can be applied to films and video games just the same. The Lord of the Rings trilogy serves as an absolute textbook example of this, and yet you are ignorant to the fact? You have either not read the books, or even seen the films, or you are choosing to ignore this fact just to appear correct. You have every right to go and write your fanfiction however you see fit, but don't assume you can come here and act like some professional.

[Apple Sauce]

srieser wrote...

DA:2 doesn't have to lead into another game. The story stands on it's own. This story is like the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand or The Boston Tea Party. It's a singular event that kicked off a historical buzz saw.

This isn't history, or a story based or inspired by true events, this is fantasy fiction. Sorry.

[EccentricSage]

5ubzer0 wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

The only companion with a story of that nature in Origins was Lelliana, except it wasn't her master, it was her old LI.  She was not a slave, and had gotten herself into that whole mess with Marjolain herself.

Zevran was a slave, but he never actually asks anything of the Warden except for some understanding and friendship. 

None of the others relate to the scenario you mention at all.

Obviously DAO spoilers following:

Morrigan - kill her mom.
Zevran - kill his former buddy who represents the wrath of the crows
Leli - kill her former lover.

In all these relationships there is a tangible power differential between companions and whoever they want to see dead. For that reason, I stand by my original post.

You are over simplifying in order to conform their stories to your post.  A former lover is not a master.  Taliesen was not a Master, Flemeth is not a master.

And what of the rest of our companions?

Fenris is the only actual case of the scenario you complained about.

[johook213]

Why are we discussing trilogy story arcs? I thought Dragon Age was intended to be an on-going series with stories that feature different EVENTS in the world of Thedas. The series is supposed to be about the world of Thedas. The story of Hawke rising to power was told, but the story of Thedas.... well, continues on. ^^