193 réponses à ce sujet

[Travie]

CalamityRanger wrote...

This whole "lack of overarching story" argument is kind of the reason so many people think gamers or moviegoers need their hands held and everything explained to them. : You had to be able to read between the lines and get a feel for the tensions growing. I honestly preferred the story of DA2 to DAO. While DAO is wonderful in the character department and such, it's the typical Chosen One storyline that we've seen so many times.

The "lack of choices" argument comes up enough as well. I think (for the most part, mind you) that's one thing that makes the story more interesting. You're not specifically the big hero that can fix all the problems. Hawke is just a massive victim of circumstance, even with being thrown into the role of Champion that they might or might not want. The story is basically a Tragedy, and not enough of those get told today.

So all the major plot points that you couldn't effect at all you didn't mind? Even not being able to effect the ending? I'm all for a good tragedy, I just don't want to feel like I'm watching a movie instead of playing an RPG.

[AkiKishi]

aftohsix wrote...

 To OP:

I would like a link to a fantasy story you've written.  I am willing to read it and submit my critique of it.  I would like to see how well it holds up compared to one of Mr. Gaider's books.

A book is not a CRPG. A book is a known factor from the start. A CRPG has a random element called the PC. Writing a good story around that random element is not the same as writing a book.

In DA2 nothing you did made any difference, the outcome was known even before the game started.While that's fine for a book it's not very good for a CRPG.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 25 mars 2011 - 01:03 .

[Aurgelmir]

BobSmith101 wrote...

aftohsix wrote...

 To OP:

I would like a link to a fantasy story you've written.  I am willing to read it and submit my critique of it.  I would like to see how well it holds up compared to one of Mr. Gaider's books.

A book is not a CRPG. A book is a known factor from the start. A CRPG has a random element called the PC. Writing a good story around that random element is not the same as writing a book.

In DA2 nothing you did made any difference, the outcome was known even before the game started.While that's fine for a book it's not very good for a CRPG.

This. This. This.

The job of a CRPG writer is not to make their own story and force it on the player like David Gaider has done. The job of the writer is to give the player the tools to make their own story.

[Puzzlewell]

Travie wrote...

CalamityRanger wrote...

This whole "lack of overarching story" argument is kind of the reason so many people think gamers or moviegoers need their hands held and everything explained to them. : You had to be able to read between the lines and get a feel for the tensions growing. I honestly preferred the story of DA2 to DAO. While DAO is wonderful in the character department and such, it's the typical Chosen One storyline that we've seen so many times.

The "lack of choices" argument comes up enough as well. I think (for the most part, mind you) that's one thing that makes the story more interesting. You're not specifically the big hero that can fix all the problems. Hawke is just a massive victim of circumstance, even with being thrown into the role of Champion that they might or might not want. The story is basically a Tragedy, and not enough of those get told today.

So all the major plot points that you couldn't effect at all you didn't mind? Even not being able to effect the ending? I'm all for a good tragedy, I just don't want to feel like I'm watching a movie instead of playing an RPG.

Some of it I minded (I'll be super vague since this is the no spoiler section), but it was mainly those with plot armor (a certain blonde woman springs to mind...). Mind you I've only played one playthrough right now so a lot of this either goes off my one playthrough, or what I've read. There are certain things I haven't experienced yet but I have a feeling it *will* bug me (Gascard, hopefully just a name won't count as a spoiler...). I mainly mean the big plot points that we really can't change (the end of act 2, though we kind of have a little bit of control depending on how we treat someone, but not fully) and most of act 3. I guess I'm just a sucker for stories that make it feel like you can't fight fate, if it's meant to happen (acts 2 and 3's big plot points) it will happen.

Modifié par CalamityRanger, 26 mars 2011 - 01:13 .

[Raygereio]

I have already ranted about my feelings about DA2's story, so I don't really feel like copy pasting.

But I would like to respond to this:

aftohsix wrote...
 To OP:
I would like a link to a fantasy story you've written.  I am willing to read it and submit my critique of it.  I would like to see how well it holds up compared to one of Mr. Gaider's books.

Welcome people, to the lazy "Oh, you don't have the right to complain about X, because you've never done X" argument.
While it's true that generally (roughly translating a Dutch idiom here) the best sailers are standing on the shore, that is an argument without any merit to it whatsoever and it infuriates the ever living crap out of the me every time I see it used.
The only way one can honestly say someone isn’t allowed to criticize something is if you either don’t know what you’re talking about (someone who hasn’t played DA2 for instance, has no business complaining about it), or fail to summon up the intellectual capacity to produce something beyond “this sucks”.
We are something slightly more important than writers criticizing a fellow writer. We're consumers criticizing a product from a writer, said critique and the way it is received possibly influencing future purchases from said writer.

Ahem, sorry. That comment just rubbed me the wrong way.

Aurgelmir wrote...
The job of a CRPG writer is not to make their own story and force it on the player like David Gaider has done. The job of the writer is to give the player the tools to make their own story.

Not persee. If you want to create your own story, then you're beter of with sandbox games that have no story of their own to get in the way.
Games with a story that want to be CRPG - such as BioWare games - present a story that is fixed in many ways and allow a certain ammount of freedom for the player to move about, have some interaction with that story and affect a few outcomes and have the feeling that he or she has choice. That's the only way to do it until we can put an AI in a game that can function like a PnP GM and handle any player action, no matter how outlandish.
This fails offcourse when the story that's being presented is... well... flawed. (Note: subjective opinion).

Modifié par Raygereio, 25 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[aftohsix]

Raygereio wrote...

Welcome people, to the lazy "Oh, you don't have the right to complain about X, because you've never done X" argument.
While it's true that generally (roughly translating a Dutch idiom here) the best sailers are standing on the shore, that is an argument without any merit to it whatsoever and it infuriates the ever living crap out of the me every time I see it used.
The only way one can honestly say someone isn’t allowed to criticize something is if you either don’t know what you’re talking about (someone who hasn’t played DA2 for instance, has no business complaining about it), or fail to summon up the intellectual capacity to produce something beyond “this sucks”.
We are something slightly more important than writers criticizing a fellow writer. We're consumers criticizing a product from a writer, said critique and the way it is received possibly influencing future purchases from said writer.

Ahem, sorry. That comment just rubbed me the wrong way.

Yep.  Because OP gave such a great critique of the story.  He gave lots of well thougt out points to Mr. Gaider on how to write a story for a role playing game with multiple ways different situations play out and then try to thread some sort of overarching plot to it.

Oh wait.  He didn't.

It's one thing to critique.  Its another to say something sucks because it sucks.  Like my good friend CRISIS does.

Modifié par aftohsix, 25 mars 2011 - 02:20 .

[Beerfish]

Sheer and utter nonsense. The game had some problems, writing was not one of them. Rather this is one of the better stories and set of companions in any BioWare game.

[DrFumb1ezX]

Beerfish wrote...

Sheer and utter nonsense. The game had some problems, writing was not one of them. Rather this is one of the better stories and set of companions in any BioWare game.

^ right here
I felt this one one of the best stories from Bioware, even if choices were dumbed down. If you were expecting a clone of Origins, then you probably disliked/hated the game. If you weren't, you probably liked/loved the game. The only problem I had with my game is the Merrill Bug in Act 3. Other than that, I loved it.

Oh and civilization is built on the basis of rejecting other's ideas/opinions and inserting your correct ideas/opinions. 

[Siegdrifa]

What bother me the most about story, it's that DA2 turn to be another package of sub quest to fill 80% of your play time.

I wonder if Bioware will ever focus their quest and scenari into one real story instead of keeping as much as door open so they can put "any kinf of sub quest".

Thankfully, the side quest was well worked to keep me intrested in playing (i enjoyed them a lot in fact).
I just finished the Act3 and i'm happy they put a small link from Act1, not a amazing one, but i still liked it (i would say it was better than nothing).


To op, i do like too a story that should be self sufficiant, but i didn't hate the end for letting ferelden and his border nation in an uncredibale state of tension.

The problem is, when you force expectation into someone to keep him intrested about what's next to com, Bioware better not fail at DA3 story, they have to take responsability with Hawke as a key character for the chantry.

If it turn to be another 20% main story 80% sub quest... that would be an epic fail.
If they treat Hawke as they treated the other caracter of DAO (they just appear to make a link between the 2 games, but none had real business in DA2, like they try to make belive it's still DA univers, or was it just fan service?), than DA2 writting would be a waste.


Bioware, i enjoyed DA2 because i had no expectation.
From the end of DAO, no body could say "DA2 will be about this or that"
But you force me to have expection for DA3 and Hawke's future.
Taking responsability for your writting would be appreciated, thanks.

And by the way, not another copy / past festival.
I decided to bough DA2 even after all the arch critics to support DA3 future (and you guys at Bioware), not to enforce quick release with overused copy / past environement.

[Apple Sauce]

aftohsix wrote...

Raygereio wrote...

Welcome people, to the lazy "Oh, you don't have the right to complain about X, because you've never done X" argument.
While it's true that generally (roughly translating a Dutch idiom here) the best sailers are standing on the shore, that is an argument without any merit to it whatsoever and it infuriates the ever living crap out of the me every time I see it used.
The only way one can honestly say someone isn’t allowed to criticize something is if you either don’t know what you’re talking about (someone who hasn’t played DA2 for instance, has no business complaining about it), or fail to summon up the intellectual capacity to produce something beyond “this sucks”.
We are something slightly more important than writers criticizing a fellow writer. We're consumers criticizing a product from a writer, said critique and the way it is received possibly influencing future purchases from said writer.

Ahem, sorry. That comment just rubbed me the wrong way.

Yep.  Because OP gave such a great critique of the story.  He gave lots of well thougt out points to Mr. Gaider on how to write a story for a role playing game with multiple ways different situations play out and then try to thread some sort of overarching plot to it.

Oh wait.  He didn't.

It's one thing to critique.  Its another to say something sucks because it sucks.  Like my good friend CRISIS does.

Why would the OP tell Gaider how to do his job? He knows how to do all those things better then anyone. His problem wasn't being an unexperienced writer who forgot how to write a CRPG, it's that he rushed it. Didn't care about it. Left the story for another game to resolve. How many critics do you see offering detailed information as to how it could have been better? You evidently don't know what a critique is.

[Guldor]

[/quote]

This. This. This.

The job of a CRPG writer is not to make their own story and force it on the player like David Gaider has done. The job of the writer is to give the player the tools to make their own story.

[/quote]


Extremely well said. Hopefully David Gaider is reading this. Probably not, we're simple lowly fans of DA and he knows whats best for us...

[Reidbynature]

I don't think they should be ashamed. I think that's pushing it. But there are clearly some hard lessons for Bioware to learn from DA2, and not just the writing either.

[88mphSlayer]

[quote][quote]Guldor wrote...

[/quote]

This. This. This.

The job of a CRPG writer is not to make their own story and force it on the player like David Gaider has done. The job of the writer is to give the player the tools to make their own story.

[/quote]
[/quote]

ehm... Planescape Torment forced the nameless one's story on me, probably the best story in any rpg i've ever played, i think the difference is Hawke is not a mysterious amnesiac who can't die like the nameless one was, hawke is just a normal person with normal aspirations, so there's nothing there to grip players and make them not mind that the story is being forced on them because we as players are already normal people with normal aspirations... we can relate yes, but we also want more control when things are so similar

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 25 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[AkiKishi]

88mphSlayer wrote...
ehm... Planescape Torment forced the nameless one's story on me, probably the best story in any rpg i've ever played, i think the difference is Hawke is not a mysterious amnesiac who can't die like the nameless one was, hawke is just a normal person with normal aspirations, so there's nothing there to grip players and make them not mind that the story is being forced on them because we as players are already normal people with normal aspirations... we can relate yes, but we also want more control when things are so similar

It did indeed. However it was better written, had much more depth and allowed for multiple endings. Some of which were "fails".
PST was a like a puzzle everything slotted together even though you could not see that at first, from story to companions.

[nicethugbert]

Aurgelmir wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

aftohsix wrote...

 To OP:

I would like a link to a fantasy story you've written.  I am willing to read it and submit my critique of it.  I would like to see how well it holds up compared to one of Mr. Gaider's books.

A book is not a CRPG. A book is a known factor from the start. A CRPG has a random element called the PC. Writing a good story around that random element is not the same as writing a book.

In DA2 nothing you did made any difference, the outcome was known even before the game started.While that's fine for a book it's not very good for a CRPG.

This. This. This.

The job of a CRPG writer is not to make their own story and force it on the player like David Gaider has done. The job of the writer is to give the player the tools to make their own story.

Anything involving a computer is "forced" because computers are finite.  So you will never be happy with a crpg, not even DA:O.

[unorfind]

I always liked linear story more ,best rpg-s I ever played were 100% linear with no choices at all,
and DA2 has better one that origins though it isn't perfect story yet and has some flaws.

[AkiKishi]

nicethugbert wrote...

Aurgelmir wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

aftohsix wrote...

 To OP:

I would like a link to a fantasy story you've written.  I am willing to read it and submit my critique of it.  I would like to see how well it holds up compared to one of Mr. Gaider's books.

A book is not a CRPG. A book is a known factor from the start. A CRPG has a random element called the PC. Writing a good story around that random element is not the same as writing a book.

In DA2 nothing you did made any difference, the outcome was known even before the game started.While that's fine for a book it's not very good for a CRPG.

This. This. This.

The job of a CRPG writer is not to make their own story and force it on the player like David Gaider has done. The job of the writer is to give the player the tools to make their own story.

Anything involving a computer is "forced" because computers are finite.  So you will never be happy with a crpg, not even DA:O.

Then why was I happy with DA ?

unorfind wrote...

I always liked linear story more ,best rpg-s I ever played were 100% linear with no choices at all,
and DA2 has better one that origins though it isn't perfect story yet and has some flaws.

Which were?

Modifié par BobSmith101, 26 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[Aurica]

Aurgelmir wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

aftohsix wrote...

 To OP:

I would like a link to a fantasy story you've written.  I am willing to read it and submit my critique of it.  I would like to see how well it holds up compared to one of Mr. Gaider's books.

A book is not a CRPG. A book is a known factor from the start. A CRPG has a random element called the PC. Writing a good story around that random element is not the same as writing a book.

In DA2 nothing you did made any difference, the outcome was known even before the game started.While that's fine for a book it's not very good for a CRPG.

This. This. This.

The job of a CRPG writer is not to make their own story and force it on the player like David Gaider has done. The job of the writer is to give the player the tools to make their own story.

I have very seldom been disappointed with the quality of BW games... while I agree.  I tend to lean towards the thinking that they had constrains or deadlines to meet.  Namely pressure from EA...

[Ixalmaris]

Yeah, the story is rather bad.

Not wanting to spoiler but Act 1 is for the most part running around without a clear goal, Act 2 is a complete filler with no connection to the main story and Act 3 is extremely short.

Spreading the story over several years adds nothing to the game as nothing happens during that time except that you move into a different house. The characters don't age, the city doesn't change and the companions achieve nothing in all those years and stay right were you found them the first time.
In fact it hurts the game as it breaks the flow. You have a action packed ending of act 2 and then you have to take a time out and everyone resets back to normal. How fun.

[LukaCrosszeria]

Tom Jolly wrote...

 I share some of the OP's frustrations. Though, I am not inclined to blame the writers. There is some brilliance in the game's creative elements, some quality writing and game art.  There's just not enough of it, the game as a whole falls short.  

The OP is right to finger EA, or even the lead design team as the culprit, as everything points to a rushed cash-grab.  The ambitious changes from DA:O for this game are not a bad thing in and of themselves. However it is readily apparent that the production schedule was accelerated, at the expense of the overall game. Had the game been given a greater context, in the form of additional geographic areas, additional character dialogue, and more continous plot-lines.... it may have lived up to the promises of its predecessor. 

This exactly sums up how I feel as well, you put that very well. There's brilliance, but not enough of it. So David Gaider should not be ashamed - but "EA, or even the lead design team".

[LukaCrosszeria]

Guldor wrote...

Aurgelmir wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

aftohsix wrote...

 To OP:

I would like a link to a fantasy story you've written.  I am willing to read it and submit my critique of it.  I would like to see how well it holds up compared to one of Mr. Gaider's books.

A book is not a CRPG. A book is a known factor from the start. A CRPG has a random element called the PC. Writing a good story around that random element is not the same as writing a book. 

In DA2 nothing you did made any difference, the outcome was known even before the game started.While that's fine for a book it's not very good for a CRPG. 

This. This. This.

The job of a CRPG writer is not to make their own story and force it on the player like David Gaider has done. The job of the writer is to give the player the tools to make their own story.

Extremely well said. Hopefully David Gaider is reading this. Probably not, we're simple lowly fans of DA and he knows whats best for us...

That is uncalled for. I've rarely seen developers as involved with forums as David Gaider.

Modifié par LukaCrosszeria, 26 mars 2011 - 11:44 .

[iTIMMEH]

Ixalmaris wrote...

Yeah, the story is rather bad.

Not wanting to spoiler but Act 1 is for the most part running around without a clear goal, Act 2 is a complete filler with no connection to the main story and Act 3 is extremely short.

Spreading the story over several years adds nothing to the game as nothing happens during that time except that you move into a different house. The characters don't age, the city doesn't change and the companions achieve nothing in all those years and stay right were you found them the first time.
In fact it hurts the game as it breaks the flow. You have a action packed ending of act 2 and then you have to take a time out and everyone resets back to normal. How fun.

I don't think act 2 is filler: the overarching story is that of how the Hawke becomes the champion of Kirkwall, and act 2 ties into that. The problem is that the story is so disjointed and poorly told. The comments about the city itself I agree with.

[Looper128]

I like the story and I have always enjoyed Gaider's works.

[falon-din]

I believe Jon Irenicus and Loghain Mac Tir were remarkable villain figures.
This is one reason why the storylines of Awakening and DA2 pale in comparison.
Also the storyline improvement of ME2 over ME1 got our hopes sky high.
We expected DA2 to crush the planet and take video game story writing to the next level.
...