141 réponses à ce sujet

[MaesterSeymour]

Little thought and easy are not always the same. For example, all I noticed on the highest difficulty was a significant increase in hp and ap. So while the fight may still take a lot longer, and you may wipe a few times. You still do not require specific tactics other than 1 heal and nuke, and good gear. Button bash like crazy = 90% chance of victory, even on nightmare. There may be very few exceptions.

[Cybermortis]

OutlawTorn6806 wrote...

Cybermortis wrote...

I'd use the high dragon fights as a comparison for the difference between DAO and DA2 in regards combat.

DAO; High Dragon on the mountain. Carefully picked party to have two mages (both with healing spells) and two melee fighters. First attempt - Used the horn, saw dragon...watched as it landed in front of my party and killed everyone in 10 seconds flat.

Second attempt - Considered party make up and equipment being worn/used. Deployed party with Healer further back. Summoned Dragon, survived for 30 seconds.

Third attempt - Realised that putting my mages anywhere near an enraged dragon probably wasn't the best of plans. Used overhead view to examine the battle-site carefully. Put part on hold and placed mages on high ground away from the melee fighters. Put the tank and melee DPS some distance apart facing each other, in the hope that one of them would be in position to backstab the dragon when it came down.
Called dragon, fought for 5-10 minutes. Both Mages ran out of manna three times, even when concentrating on healing rather than DPS. Melee fighters used half a dozen health pots each, Tank had to be rezed at one point. Eventual victory hard won victory...and I mean hard won. I had to sit back and catch my breath after the fight.

DA2, High Dragon fight in the Quarry. For some reason I hadn't realised I would be fighting a dragon, and therefore had not considered party set up. (This was my mistake, and the party would have been the same anyway since there is only one tank and healer to choose in DA2).
Party consisted of Avaline, Anders, Isabella and my rogue.
First attempt - Ran straight at the dragon, inflicted considerable damage before it summoned smaller dragons. Took out smaller dragons, had to run around a bit to avoid fireballs from High Dragon - used one health-pot. When High Dragon reappeared turned and attacked, used up two health-pots. Continued to take out waves of small dragons, usually with my rogue while everyone else was taking on the boss. Victory to me, no party members fell in battle, Anders never needed to replenish manna.


Both fights were on 'easy' (I simply wanted to follow the story), but the difference is clear. In DAO you really had to think about the battles, even on easy. In DA2 you didn't have to think about party make up (Not that you have much options anyway with only one tank and healer), and the full frontal charge was the limit of tactical thought.

The difficulty between DAO and DA2 are not the same. If you played the DAO high dragon fight in casual, than  you need to play the DA2 high dragon fight in Normal. 

My point was that even in DAO, even playing on casual, you couldn't rely on charging straight into the battle no matter how well equipped or chosen your party was. The battles themselves could be just as 'easy' as DA2 IF you knew what you were doing* or took a minute to think through how you should proceed. If you didn't - especially against the bosses - you died. I got wiped out in the Deep Roads five times simply because I failed to come up with any tactic other than 'Go straight at them'. I got wiped twice during the ashes quest by not getting my healer to run away from the Drakes that appeared behind her. Wiped going through the ruins in the forrest for the Dalish quest when I ran into the Dragon there and, once again, tried the 'straight at 'em' tactic. Hell, I managed to get myself killed the first time I did the Wilds quests by charging the first genlock I saw.

(*My duel welding warrior took down the Archdemon solo in my second playthrough, after somehow managing to get everyone else in the party killed).

In DA2 my party wiped once - and that was because mobs spawned as soon as I passed through a door and killed half the party before I realised I was under attack. The dragon (not high dragon) I ran into at one point required nothing more that a frontal charge and five minutes of endless hacking to take down. As for the drakes...Anders managed to kill two of them on his lonesome and would have taken down a third had I not noticed he was under attack at that point and gone to his aid.

This really explains the difference between the two games. The difficulty of DAO could be very high if you failed to do at least some planning, and you could wipe in seconds if you made a bad choise. In DA2 combat just doesn't require the same level of thought - and the lack of many features such as an overhead view makes such planning next to impossible. As does mobs appearing behind you like the 82nd airborne.

DA2's combat is either too easy or too frustrating for all the wrong reasons. It is frustrating to see mobs charging your healer purely because as a tank you just can't work up enough agro to stop it happening and you didn't bring Avaline with you that day.

[Cybermortis]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Amusing story about the High Dragon in DA:O (well to me anyways), I died around 10+ times trying to kill that thing doing the whole one person fire res armour tanking healers on hill but in range archers shooting while all skills turned off to not pull aggro. On the 11th time all my team died and I was left soloing the dragon at around level 15 I think, and I found easy way to kill him/her. Summon pet A have it tank it while you run down the hill (use no skills except pet summons x 2 pets) fire at it, then when pet dies and dragon takes off summon other pet B and run up hill, the pet tanks it again and you keep firing and once it dies summon Pet A since CD has finished for other pet by then run down and repeat. It worked and I defeated it solo at lvl 15 without using a single potion. Flemmeth was a lot harder though mainly because took her on at lvl 8-10.

Tips; Leave the dragons for as long as you can. I usually wait until I'm doing the Landsmeet quests or just before I start these quests.

Flemmeth can be taken down simply by having everyone spread out at a distance and hitting her with ranged weapons/spells. This is the only battle in the game where you don't really need a tank, since she will not move from where she spawns.

Shale works as a wonderful tank for the dragons if she is given large flawless/clear fire crystals.

[MaesterSeymour]

DA:O was a lot more challenging from an RPG perspective.

[Lumikki]

MaesterSeymour wrote...

6. Decisions make no true impact on the story. Yeah you get to make decisions, and yeah it does kinda have an impact. But the impact is barely noticeable. Hardly anything will change in the game based on your actions. In DOA the choices you made had a huge impact.

Exactly how did DAO do this better. I have played many Biowares games and most of them are very linear and what ever you do will not change the story flow. Meaning, you may in most have different end result in last choise, but that's all. In DAO you got different starts too, but hole story was linear as hell.

[AkiKishi]

Lumikki wrote...

MaesterSeymour wrote...

6. Decisions make no true impact on the story. Yeah you get to make decisions, and yeah it does kinda have an impact. But the impact is barely noticeable. Hardly anything will change in the game based on your actions. In DOA the choices you made had a huge impact.

Exactly how did DAO do this better. I have played many Biowares games and most of them are very linear and what ever you do will not change the story flow. Meaning, you may in most have different end result in last choise, but that's all. In DAO you got different starts too, but hole story was linear as hell.

DA did not tell you the ending before you even started the game , then have no way to to change it.

[Lumikki]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

MaesterSeymour wrote...

6. Decisions make no true impact on the story. Yeah you get to make decisions, and yeah it does kinda have an impact. But the impact is barely noticeable. Hardly anything will change in the game based on your actions. In DOA the choices you made had a huge impact.

Exactly how did DAO do this better. I have played many Biowares games and most of them are very linear and what ever you do will not change the story flow. Meaning, you may in most have different end result in last choise, but that's all. In DAO you got different starts too, but hole story was linear as hell.

DA did not tell you the ending before you even started the game , then have no way to to change it.

You mean if there is choise in the end, game isn't linear?

I mean let see, 30+ hour to play and last 1 hour defines is game linear?

I did know also ending better in DAO than DA2, because I did know my main job in DAO story a lot sooner than in DA2.

Modifié par Lumikki, 26 mars 2011 - 04:55 .

[AkiKishi]

Lumikki wrote...
I mean let see, 30+ hour to play and last 1 hour defines is game linear?

Begining or end. You can also take non linear as being able to do things out of sequence. But DA2 is still far more linear than DA.

Not only did your actions make no difference in DA2, you know that will be the case before you even start. It's a big motivation killer.

Telling a story as part of a game is fine. But the good ones catch up in real time before the end. FFX, AP etc.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 26 mars 2011 - 04:57 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Lumikki wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

MaesterSeymour wrote...

6. Decisions make no true impact on the story. Yeah you get to make decisions, and yeah it does kinda have an impact. But the impact is barely noticeable. Hardly anything will change in the game based on your actions. In DOA the choices you made had a huge impact.

Exactly how did DAO do this better. I have played many Biowares games and most of them are very linear and what ever you do will not change the story flow. Meaning, you may in most have different end result in last choise, but that's all. In DAO you got different starts too, but hole story was linear as hell.

DA did not tell you the ending before you even started the game , then have no way to to change it.

You mean if there is choise in the end, game isn't linear?

I mean let see, 30+ hour to play and last 1 hour defines is game linear?

You have no control over the end of any of the arcs story plot wise unlike DA:O where each main quests had an outcome that effected the next one whether thats letting elves live or werewolves, who is kind or queen therefor rules the entire country, who rules the dwarfs, if you even live or die at the end and so on. In DA2 the only thing you control is what happens really to your companions and at the end you are told nothing about them. How long you spent getting to that point is irrelevant. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 26 mars 2011 - 05:02 .

[Lumikki]

You mean like you as player deside who's gonna be Dwaven king or King/queen of Ferelden. I did find it idiotic that player character desides every major event in hole Ferelden. Totally unrealistic.

[Dragoonlordz]

Lumikki wrote...

You mean like you as player deside who's gonna be Dwaven king or King/queen of Ferelden. I did find it idiotic that player character desides every major event in hole Ferelden. Totally unrealistic.

As opposed to what being able to control nothing, where your input is as valuable as reading a book or watching a movie... Yes.... I can see how having an impact on the world around you is a bad thing for a game. 

[Taura-Tierno]

Dan UK wrote...

'The story in this game is not concluded..., And do you know what makes this worse? You are going to charge us extortionate amounts for DLC, just to play the rest of the game we already paid money for!'

Probably my biggest gripe about this game overall. I can overlook alot of things, but when a RPG leaves you with a non-conclusive ending like that it annoys the hell out of me. I play these games for the story over everything else. So when they deicde to leave it open purely for futures sales thats a big No No for me.

As did Baldur's Gate 2. But that game got a really good wrap-up in Throne of Bhaal. I am hoping DA2 will receive a similar expansion that concludes things. 

[Pyrate_d]

Lumikki wrote...

You mean like you as player deside who's gonna be Dwaven king or King/queen of Ferelden. I did find it idiotic that player character desides every major event in hole Ferelden. Totally unrealistic.

It's definitely unrealistic, but at the same time, it's better than deciding nothing, which is how DA2 plays out.

[Lumikki]

Having impact the game world is very good, we all want it as our choises has meaning, but force player to decide every major decission in game world is not anymore good. It's unrealistic, unless you play a queen or king of the world. In DAO you where nothing, but one little warden who had job to do, because you where allmost only one left to do it. How ever, that doesn't mean you should decide every major stuff in game world.

[lazuli]

MaesterSeymour wrote...

Little thought and easy are not always the same. For example, all I noticed on the highest difficulty was a significant increase in hp and ap. So while the fight may still take a lot longer, and you may wipe a few times. You still do not require specific tactics other than 1 heal and nuke, and good gear. Button bash like crazy = 90% chance of victory, even on nightmare. There may be very few exceptions.

You're forgetting force effects.

[AkiKishi]

Lumikki wrote...

Having impact the game world is very good, we all want it as our choises has meaning, but force player to decide every major decission in game world is not anymore good. It's unrealistic, unless you play a queen or king of the world. In DAO you where nothing, but one little warden who had job to do, because you where allmost only one left to do it. How ever, that doesn't mean you should decide every major stuff in game world.

Yes it is , it makes you feel like you impact on the story. That's why it's a CRPG and not a book.

A Warden in time of Blight,small but important detail there.

[Dragoonlordz]

Lumikki wrote...

Having impact the game world is very good, we all want it as our choises has meaning, but force player to decide every major decission in game world is not anymore good. It's unrealistic, unless you play a queen or king of the world. In DAO you where nothing, but one little warden who had job to do, because you where allmost only one left to do it. How ever, that doesn't mean you should decide every major stuff in game world.

Bioware's games have always been about choices / consequences and cause / effect while at same time doing so in a well developed story plot. In DA2 they have removed the first two and tried to sell us only the last bit.

[Alelsa]

Avoiding spoilers, the choices in DA2 decide the fate of some of your family members, whether or not certain NPCs receive justice, and how some party members end up feeling about you. It's all impact, but it's on a far more personal level for Hawke, whereas the Warden's decisions had a wide-reaching "heroic" impact.
It's a different type of story, and I'm glad to see someone had the guts to try it. Whether it was a popular decision or not, you have to admit it has certainly been a controversial one.

[Lumikki]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Having impact the game world is very good, we all want it as our choises has meaning, but force player to decide every major decission in game world is not anymore good. It's unrealistic, unless you play a queen or king of the world. In DAO you where nothing, but one little warden who had job to do, because you where allmost only one left to do it. How ever, that doesn't mean you should decide every major stuff in game world.

Yes it is , it makes you feel like you impact on the story. That's why it's a CRPG and not a book.

A Warden in time of Blight,small but important detail there.

There where 100's of wardens, why are you so important. You only become important because others died.

Yes, it makes feel you are important, but if it makes you feel like you doing decission what you should not do, then it's not good at all. Example in DA2 you made decission, what I personally did not like at all, at least You where Champion of Kirkwall when you did it. In DAO you where just some small warden and that's all. Kings, Queens and nobles make decissions who's King or Queen. Not some little poor Warden, who's job is just kill the big bad.

You can't judge game to be linear or not, just based how imporant you feeled to be by choises you make.

Modifié par Lumikki, 26 mars 2011 - 05:25 .

[Trophy_Hunter]

I agree with you maesterseymour. Whilst I wouldnt say it is a bad game per say, I do admit I felt disappointed by the content you have highlighted in your OP (or lack of content as the case may be).

One thing I will say is watch out for putting spoilers in as others may not want to know things such as the ending, even if it is a poor one.

[AkiKishi]

Lumikki wrote...
There where 100's of wardens, why are you so important. You only become important because others died.

Yes, it makes feel you are important, but if it makes you feel like you doing decission what you should not do, then it's not good ta all. Example in DA2 you made decission, what I personally did not like at all, at least You where Champion of Kirkwall when you did it. In DAO you where just some small warden and that's all. Kings, Queens and nobles make decissions who's King or Queen. Not some little poor Warden, who's job is just kill the big bad.

You can't judge game to be linear or not, just based how imporant you feeled to be by choises you make.

There are 2 at the time.

You could call in Wardens from other lands, but that takes time and it also impacts on Fereldan autonomy.
Champion of Kirkwall was an empty title. The title of Warden carried with it the responsibility of stopping the blight and being kingmaker.

The only reason Hawke can't leave Kirkwall is because the game gives him no where else to go. There is no  compelling reason to stay like in DA.

Linear a line

DA2 start -------------------------- DA2 end there linear game proven.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 26 mars 2011 - 05:29 .

[TJSolo]

Lumikki wrote...

Having impact the game world is very good, we all want it as our choises has meaning, but force player to decide every major decission in game world is not anymore good. It's unrealistic, unless you play a queen or king of the world. In DAO you where nothing, but one little warden who had job to do, because you where allmost only one left to do it. How ever, that doesn't mean you should decide every major stuff in game world.

Funny I played a game called Dragon Age: Origins where my character is part of a well respected and honor group called the Grey Wardens.  The sort of power Grey Wardens had transcended Kings during the time of blights. The setting in DAO was a blight, yes?

The times when my Warden helped to decide the Kings or Queens in Fereldan there was this thing called story which explained the extenuatiing circumstances around the matter, and it was not just my Warden declaring someone a king or queen. It wasn't even my Warden deciding who to put on the thrown in Orzimarr, I certainly played a role that influenced that situation but the deciscion was not forced on the player since there was an option to let the paragon decide who to support.


But really. Can using the word unrealistic as a supposed negative against DAO or any video game not labeled a simulator stop? If you a video game giving unrealistic amounts of power to the player is that much of a problem to you then maybe you should not be playing fantasy games.

[Lumikki]

Only reason why Warden did what he/she did, was because there was no other choise.

DAO starts ------------------------------- DAO ends there linear game proven.

My point is both games where extreme linear.

Point also is that player Warden was only important to defeting the blight and become important for everyone else after defeating the blight (After end of story). Before it, she /he was like any other 100's of wardens. If You make him/her more important, it's because you want to feel that way. Only real respect what Warden did earn, before to he/she did become really important was gathering the army, what was any Wardens job to do.

Modifié par Lumikki, 26 mars 2011 - 05:39 .

[Pyrate_d]

Lumikki is so wrong about everything he writes, it's like he's trying.

[Dragoonlordz]

Lumikki wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Having impact the game world is very good, we all want it as our choises has meaning, but force player to decide every major decission in game world is not anymore good. It's unrealistic, unless you play a queen or king of the world. In DAO you where nothing, but one little warden who had job to do, because you where allmost only one left to do it. How ever, that doesn't mean you should decide every major stuff in game world.

Yes it is , it makes you feel like you impact on the story. That's why it's a CRPG and not a book.

A Warden in time of Blight,small but important detail there.

There where 100's of wardens, why are you so important. You only become important because others died.

Yes, it makes feel you are important, but if it makes you feel like you doing decission what you should not do, then it's not good at all. Example in DA2 you made decission, what I personally did not like at all, at least You where Champion of Kirkwall when you did it. In DAO you where just some small warden and that's all. Kings, Queens and nobles make decissions who's King or Queen. Not some little poor Warden, who's job is just kill the big bad.

You can't judge game to be linear or not, just based how imporant you feeled to be by choises you make.

There is a blight your one of the few remaining wardens and only a warden can kill a arch demon so yes, you are important and your importance is shown through progression as you save thousands of lives as go along that such importance has an effect.. Alternatively in DA2 your a hero by default (the champion of kirkwall shown right from the start of the game before you even begin playing) who just so happens has no control over anything that happens to the city that apparently your the savior of... The two simply cannot be compared on level of quality story wise at all, DA2 is nothing more than a different way of approaching a story but in a more linear way because the story has to play out a certain way.

Lets take 2 situations very similar in from both games. a) DA2 Kirkwall (Humans/Elves) and Arishok and how that payed out, very linear. DA:O Elves and Werewolves not linear because there was 3 possible outcomes of choices you make through out that story part that had massive effect on outcome.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 26 mars 2011 - 05:39 .