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[PsychoBlonde]

 So, for those interested in the Qunari (and I know you're out there!), I didn't catch this on my first playthrough because I didn't really friend Isabela and so she left at the end of act II.  However, if you do keep her around, Isabela and Fenris have a discussion where Fenris alludes to her probable fate if you surrendered her to the Arishok, namely that she'd either be indoctrinated or they'd use something called "qamek" to turn her into a mindless worker.  (In the Blackpowder Courtesy quest, you run across saar-qamek, which given the Qunari language probably translates into "dangerous qamek"--it makes you insane and kills you rather than just dumbing you down.  The qamek also may not work on the kossith race, the horned giants, because the saar-qamek doesn't.)

This puts an interesting new spin on the Qunari society.  Apparently they don't just rely on military force and indoctrination, they are quite willing to lobotomize you with drugs if you prove recalcitrant.  So what do people think of this?  Personally I find it horrible, and would be willing to contemplate genocide as a potential solution to the Qunari problem.  I'm not sure there's any chance of dealing with them in any other way.  This is a serious issue.

[greyman33]

The Qunari would hardly be the first group of people to either chemically or surgically attempt to control those deemed dangerous and/or too mentally unstable to be allowed 'loose' (no Isabella puns intended there) in society. Lobotomizing mental patients deemed dangerous was at one time considered not only permissible, but in some medical circles it was even though to be helpful to the patient they were lobotomizing. And that was in the United States as recently as the 1960s.

The fact is, Isabella would be considered a criminal of the highest order to the Qunari. Maybe quamek treatment is just what they do to this brand of criminal/heretic. Frankly, she's probably lucky they wouldn't simply execute her in the public square at the first opportunity.

[Avissel]

To me, it came across as sounding like their version of being made Tranquil.

[gauntz]

I agree, the Qamek mentions felt very creepy. But consider the Tranquil among humans. They're pretty much the same thing; lobotomized slaves. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Qamek is the Qunari term for Tranquil, though it seems Qunari in that case have a way of making non-mages Tranquil and uses them for menial labour rather than enchantment and scholarly tasks.

As for whether Qunari are evil and need to be removed; I get the vibe that all the major systems in Thedas are shown to be quite bleak. Almost all strong-willed mages in DA2 (named mages I guess) are Blood Mages and essentially dangers to society, and the Tevinter Imperium (ruled by mages) is usually seen as evil and is blamed for the Darkspawn.

The Chantry/Andrastian system is also often portrayed as "evil." Firstly you have the repressive templar order which essentially systematically abuse mages and make lobotomized Tranquil (some templars are good and idealistic; most are not.) They also happen to be lyrium-addicts. I also get this "conservative christian" impression of the Chantry, and I think it's pretty agreed on in the West that strict religious societies aren't always very positive.

And then the Qunari with their zero tolerance for those who refuse the Qun, lobotomized Qamek, Sten killing an innocent family and the Arishok paradoxically wanting to teach Kirkwall the right path by starting a giant massacre.

EDIT: Seems Avissel beat me to it.

Modifié par gauntz, 24 mars 2011 - 10:37 .

[PsychoBlonde]

It's definitely very bleak, but conversely you meet plenty of good, sensible, SANE people who belong to all of these sick factions. And you also meet monsters wearing human faces. It is my personal hope that the DA series will eventually run around to your PC starting up their own faction and either gathering all the worst psychos to your banner--or gathering the reasonable folks. It could be a really interesting story with all sorts of betrayals, false trails, being hopelessly outmanned and outgunned and incredible last-minute reverses.

Anyway, I think that there's a significant difference between seeking to control the insane with drugs and using them on otherwise quite healthy people just because they disagree with you. Having watched Serenity recently, I'm all too keenly aware of the vileness of the Qunari's desired "world without sin" (or suffering, as they'd probably put it).

[Teknor]

Tranquil is not a lobotomized slave. A tranquil retains his mental faculties to his fullest. Only the fade tying emotions are gone. As the tranquil from DAO says being a tranquil does not make you less of a person.

[Icy Magebane]

Another reason to dislike them... didn't really need one though. There's really nothing redeeming about the Qunari IMO.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Qamek is probably just their version of the Tranquil. It certainly sounds like they share a lot of similarities.

[Icy Magebane]

Yeah, but they use Qamek on anybody that won't join the Qun... that's a little too extreme. I mean basically, if you don't agree to their religion, you get killed or lobotomized, period. At least the Chantry under normal circumstances only Tranquilizes problematic mages... it's not something they do to everybody who disagrees with them. Eh... I just don't like the idea of using that on the entire planet. That's going way too far.

[The Angry One]

Don't even compare what the Qun do to tranquils.
Tranquils are not mindless despite what some people who insist on misinterpreting the dialog in DA2 believe.
Also the intention behind tranquility is noble enough - offer a mage who isn't sure about their ability to resist demons/is too frightened an alternative to death.
That it's abused is a crime, but it's not a crime itself. Using chemicals to dope sentient beings into becoming mindless worker drones is despicable any way you paint it.

PsychoBlonde wrote...

 The qamek also may not work on the kossith race, the horned giants, because the saar-qamek doesn't.)

The Arishok says it doesn't affect them as it would any other race, i.e. drive them insane.
Because Qunari are liars of omission, this doesn't discount that qamek is usable on their own race.

[ForeignPatriot]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Yeah, but they use Qamek on anybody that won't join the Qun... that's a little too extreme. I mean basically, if you don't agree to their religion, you get killed or lobotomized, period. At least the Chantry under normal circumstances only Tranquilizes problematic mages... it's not something they do to everybody who disagrees with them. Eh... I just don't like the idea of using that on the entire planet. That's going way too far.

Nowhere does it say this is a common practice. In fact, when they take over the keep they don't just kill everyone. In the eyes of the Qunari, humans are like children or even.. beasts, they "don't know better". And it is their goal to teach them, to "make them see".

The Chantry does things that could be considered just as bad. Exalted Marches, anyone? The Inquisitors?

I'm not saying that they are "right" in what they do but, its not as black and white as you make it seem.

As for Isabella, she did steal one of their MOST sacred relics... I doubt the Chantry would have much mercy on someone who stole the Urn of sacred ashes. The Qun at least gives her a chance, if she refuses then its "puff puff* and drool  

[Icy Magebane]

Fenris only mentions "Qamek." The Qunari are apparently genius-level chemists with all manner of secret, advanced technology. I don't think it's a stretch to say that they have substances we don't know about... things that help keep their parent race in line.

@ForeignPatriot:  Hold on... I'm not excusing Isabela and I'm not saying the Chantry is perfect.  From what Fenris says, if you refuse to submit to the Qun, you are sent to a labor camp and given Qamek.  As we see in the attack on Kirkwall, the alternative to that is death.  So yeah, they do bad things to you if you refuse the Qun.  I'm not saying they don't give you a chance, but they don't give you options outside of the 3 that have been mentioned.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 14 avril 2011 - 04:38 .

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

 The qamek also may not work on the kossith race, the horned giants, because the saar-qamek doesn't.)

The Arishok says it doesn't affect them as it would any other race, i.e. drive them insane.
Because Qunari are liars of omission, this doesn't discount that qamek is usable on their own race.

They apparently use it in warfare, why lie about it?


Anyways, since when is it known that they administer Qamek to all workers? It might be their way of a death sentence, that way they get some use out of them.

[The Angry One]

Herr Uhl wrote...

They apparently use it in warfare, why lie about it?

Because they lie about everything, the Qunari are the most dishonest, two-faced, double-talking lawyers in all of Thedas.
The Arishok does this constantly, he omits information and lets people assume he means something else.

Anyways, since when is it known that they administer Qamek to all workers? It might be their way of a death sentence, that way they get some use out of them.

It's implied that they subject it to all who refuse to convert to the Qun, not all workers.
That is despicable enough. At least an Exalted March will just kill you. Though I'm not sure why people think condemning the Qunari is saying that the Chantry are a bunch of saints.

[ForeignPatriot]

The Angry One wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

They apparently use it in warfare, why lie about it?

Because they lie about everything, the Qunari are the most dishonest, two-faced, double-talking lawyers in all of Thedas.
The Arishok does this constantly, he omits information and lets people assume he means something else.

Anyways, since when is it known that they administer Qamek to all workers? It might be their way of a death sentence, that way they get some use out of them.

It's implied that they subject it to all who refuse to convert to the Qun, not all workers.
That is despicable enough. At least an Exalted March will just kill you. Though I'm not sure why people think condemning the Qunari is saying that the Chantry are a bunch of saints.

Can I ask where this is implied? I don't recall any evidence either in the game or codexes that would imply this is common practice.

In fact, there is a codex that states the only reason why the Qunari retreated from Rivain was because of the death toll of the local population caused by the Exalted March, not by the Qunari losses. This implies they care about the innocent. (I'll try to find which one it is).

Also, what makes you say they are the most two faced race? Couldn't your perception of the fact that they don't understand how humans communicate and therefore not say more than what is asked be a little off? After all, it is well recorded that few Qunari speak the common language well and in their culture, which focuses on the mastery of the self, this brings them shame and therefore don't speak much with strangers.

EDIT: found it http://dragonage.wik...omerryn_Accords

Modifié par ForeignPatriot, 14 avril 2011 - 04:56 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Angry One wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

They apparently use it in warfare, why lie about it?

Because they lie about everything, the Qunari are the most dishonest, two-faced, double-talking lawyers in all of Thedas.
The Arishok does this constantly, he omits information and lets people assume he means something else.

He doesn't lie. He just doesn't tell you everything. Not once does he tell us a direct lie. Even when he says they are waiting for a ship, he does not lie. Cause they ARE waiting for a ship, they just need to complete their task first.
There is a difference between lieing, and just not telling you everything. And why on earth would he ver tell us everything? He does not consider us allies in any meaning of the word, he barely considers Kirkwall better than a stinking pile of dung, he considers Kirkwall a stinking pile of dung. The only person within Kirkwall he even got a speck of respect for is Hawke. So tell me again, why he would tell his enemies everything?

[Herr Uhl]

The Angry One wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Anyways, since when is it known that they administer Qamek to all workers? It might be their way of a death sentence, that way they get some use out of them.

It's implied that they subject it to all who refuse to convert to the Qun, not all workers.
That is despicable enough. At least an Exalted March will just kill you. Though I'm not sure why people think condemning the Qunari is saying that the Chantry are a bunch of saints.

It has only been mentioned in the case of Isabela, and could you see her willingly being a worker of any kind? Starting with the Ben-Hassrath educating or re-educating and then having Qamek as the final point if you can't adapt to their society.

And I agree that it is morally reprehensible, but using a drug that turns you into something that can do menial tasks seems like a pragmatic way to do it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't think Saar-qamek and Qamek is connected in anyhting other than language. Given waht we know of Qunari language, we can determine Saare means dangerous (from Saarebas), and given the role of the Qamek, I'd guess it would mean "mindless". Therefore the Saar-qamek, dangerous-mindless, becasue it makes its victims violently insane.

[blothulfur]

I am in agreement, to take away a beings very soul is a terrible thing and the culture which uses such methods should be destroyed every man, woman and child.

For those poor souls who have been rendered tranquil.

[Beerfish]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


He doesn't lie. He just doesn't tell you everything. Not once does he tell us a direct lie. Even when he says they are waiting for a ship, he does not lie. Cause they ARE waiting for a ship, they just need to complete their task first.
There is a difference between lieing, and just not telling you everything. And why on earth would he ver tell us everything? He does not consider us allies in any meaning of the word, he barely considers Kirkwall better than a stinking pile of dung, he considers Kirkwall a stinking pile of dung. The only person within Kirkwall he even got a speck of respect for is Hawke. So tell me again, why he would tell his enemies everything?

What's the difference?  As usual with the Qunari it is all somantics, he intentionally misleads constantly and yet he blasts the town of kirkwall for being filled with liars and cheats.  In the end it achieves the same thing.  You can't trust a thing that comes out of the Arishoks mouth and he changes the rules to suit himself at every turn.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Beerfish wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


He doesn't lie. He just doesn't tell you everything. Not once does he tell us a direct lie. Even when he says they are waiting for a ship, he does not lie. Cause they ARE waiting for a ship, they just need to complete their task first.
There is a difference between lieing, and just not telling you everything. And why on earth would he ver tell us everything? He does not consider us allies in any meaning of the word, he barely considers Kirkwall better than a stinking pile of dung, he considers Kirkwall a stinking pile of dung. The only person within Kirkwall he even got a speck of respect for is Hawke. So tell me again, why he would tell his enemies everything?

What's the difference?  As usual with the Qunari it is all somantics, he intentionally misleads constantly and yet he blasts the town of kirkwall for being filled with liars and cheats.  In the end it achieves the same thing.  You can't trust a thing that comes out of the Arishoks mouth and he changes the rules to suit himself at every turn.

Except he didn't lie and you can trust everything he says. However, you should not expect him to tell the whole truth. That is the mistake a lot of people apparently did. And he changes what rules when?

[doloreg]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

 The qamek also may not work on the kossith race, the horned giants, because the saar-qamek doesn't.

Speculation, and irrevelant at that.

This puts an interesting new spin on the Qunari society.  Apparently they don't just rely on military force and indoctrination, they are quite willing to lobotomize you with drugs if you prove recalcitrant.  So what do people think of this?  Personally I find it horrible, and would be willing to contemplate genocide as a potential solution to the Qunari problem.  I'm not sure there's any chance of dealing with them in any other way.  This is a serious issue.

It sure does. But it's not that bad in the grimdark world of Thedas. I mean humans do it all the time with the tranquils, and as i'll adress it later it's pretty much as horrible as the qamek, and demons do it all the time by possessing people.
It's unethical, but so is kelling people. Or stripping them from their emotions. The fact that for this one amoral activity you would kill all the kossith, or the entire qunari culture, as you put it, commit genocide, is INCREDIBLY HYPOCRITICAL.
You know, by this logic you should kill all of Kirkwall, bah, all of Thedas. To show no remorse for an entire race/culture because of a controversial tradition that has an equivalent in pretty much all the othr cultures is, i'm sorry to say, stupid.
Not to mention that Isabela stole their holiest relic. Punishing her is just, and the fact that she gets to keep her life is arguably more than she deserves. You simply can't tell how usual are these qumek treatmens are, so saying that everyone gets that if they even mildly disagree is a borderline line. All we know is that sometimes, it is used. It could be the very last method after seeing that there's no way  a woker would convert, and it could be the first thing they do to all new recruits. We simply cannoot know, so there's no point arguing about that.
However, we do know that tranquils are made incredibly frequently, and often illegally.
Lastly, this is a videogame, not a serious matter, or, to put it in other words, no, this is Patric.
Onto your next point.

Anyway, I think that there's a significant difference between seeking to
control the insane with drugs and using them on otherwise quite healthy
people just because they disagree with you. Having watched Serenity
recently, I'm all too keenly aware of the vileness of the Qunari's
desired "world without sin" (or suffering, as they'd probably put it).

Hardly. The people made tranquil are far from being insane. Karl wasn't insane, the black girl wasn't insane. Do you know her crime? She escaped the prisonlike circle (not even permanently) to see her family. That's pretty dangerous to the society isn't it? It's not like people would snuck out of the army to see their family..(i certainly didn't do that-whistles suspiciously-), and if they did, the proper punishment should be lobotomy. Yeah.
The very irony of your comment is that the chantry does what you accuse the qunari of. The've made their religion the state religion and everyone must agree/believe or else. Merrill mentions, that templars hunt dalish mages as if they were apostates, because they treat everyone as if they were part of their religion, and if they really aren't, well, too bad. Sucks for them.
And not to forget that the chantry is made of ideas of people, just as the qun, their laws are in no way any more sacred than the word of the qun. If you disagree with it, they should not have the right to make you tranquil.

In the real world during the middle ages we killed people who wrote books opposing the ideas of the tyrants. We killed people because they thought they were witches. Hell, we killed people because we disliked their culture, the very same thing that you suggest. And these were actual offences, a ruler could kill almost anyone, simply because he didn't like the person.
So I repeat my question, would you have all of humanity killed as well? It does not take a pair of hornes and some tribal tattoos to be "evil". Anyone with sentinence has the choice, andthe qunari are not any more prone to it, than any other race.

Ps.: I don't like the qunary, they are hypocrites.

tl;dr version: You try to apply the ideals of today to the (fictional and intentionally dark) world of the past, and suggest an incredibly extreme and ironic solution.

[Icy Magebane]

The Qunari would be okay if their goal wasn't to forcibly convert the entire world to follow their religion. That is unacceptable. As far as I know, they cannot be reasoned with and you can't change their minds about what's right or wrong. So what option is there except wiping them out, if that's even possible from a military standpoint? I don't think it's smart to just let them keep building strength in Par Vollen and wait for them to invade Thedas again. This mage vs. Templar crap needs to be settled so that Thedas can focus on the real threat.

Now, if there was a way to convince them that converting everyone on the planet to follow the Qun isn't necessary, and that they should just wait for people to join voluntary, I wouldn't have a problem with them. This whole thing about enslaving the world though... I'm not really a fan.

[doloreg]

You don't have to be. But the chantry isn't better, they want to convert the world as well. If you wipe out the qunari, be sure to wipe out the chantry afterwards.