Aller au contenu

Photo

Mike Laidlaw's final thoughts on DA2 with Gamespot


373 réponses à ce sujet

#151
Merced652

Merced652
  • Members
  • 1 661 messages
 

As soon as I moved it to hard, I totally see where Origins is again." That's fair, and I think that's something over time we'll continue to tune and capitalize on that fusion between the Origins experience and Dragon Age II.


Was too much to hope he'd just scrap his entire failed experiment. 

It's always valid. You have to take a read of what the fans are saying, what reviews are saying, and what the non-fans are saying. Are there people out there who are saying, "I could not play Origins, but love Dragon Age II" or "I couldn't play Origins and this is more of the same."


This quote is pretty god damn telling of their intentions. 

almost everything I want to keep about Origins, but still has tons of room to grow and, frankly, a more viable future for the franchise.


Mike Laidlaw, savior of RPGs. 

His repeated reference to **** like "where we are today," "2011," is pretty damning for origins or anyone who liked it. Hes basically saying that it was old and busted, this is the new hotness. 

Modifié par Merced652, 25 mars 2011 - 05:09 .


#152
Akulakhan

Akulakhan
  • Members
  • 36 messages

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Eski.Moe wrote...

berelinde wrote...
Making RPGs for people who don't play RPGs. What's next? Enya tries her hand at death metal?

Now that, I'd pay to see.


It's like a toy company who produces nerf guns. They're incredibly efficient and talented at what they do, but look at the weapons market, and tries to emulate their production. They figure - "we know how to make good toy guns, lets make real guns"! And they do, but it's not good enough to be a real weapon, and it angers all of the little kids who won't be getting nerf guns anymore.

That's Bioware in a little story for ya.

-Polite


I think it's the inverse. Bioware only made real guns for people that have license to use it (the RPG crowd) and now makes airsoft guns for everyone (people that don't like RPGs but want to play RPGs).

#153
Akulakhan

Akulakhan
  • Members
  • 36 messages

Merced652 wrote...

His repeated reference to **** like "where we are today," "2011," is pretty damning for origins or anyone who liked it. Hes basically saying that it was old and busted, this is the new hotness.


Yeah, because evolution = taking away the complexity and what makes the game good in favor of dumb and oversimplified games

#154
Demx

Demx
  • Members
  • 3 738 messages
I know the two things don't really relate; but I like how Mike mentions he didn't want us to join something like the Jedi Order, but during the final battle in DA2 we get a star wars theme going.

#155
Otterwarden

Otterwarden
  • Members
  • 569 messages
Defensive reviews are NOT a good thing, even if they score you high.

Dated March 25, 2011

http://www.pcworld.i...on_age_2/381003

"Dragon Age 2 is not Dragon Age. It seems like an obvious truism, but given the backlash Bioware's sequel has suffered, it is a statement that people seem to need reminding of.

Indeed, in doing something so dramatically different, Bioware has inadvertently given other developers and publishers all the reason in the world to keep their top franchises safe and stale — if you take risks, you'll ****** off some very vocal fanboys."

Modifié par Otterwarden, 25 mars 2011 - 05:52 .


#156
Foolsfolly

Foolsfolly
  • Members
  • 4 770 messages

* Tag
* Print
* Email
*
o Twitter
o Facebook
o Digg

Dragon Age II - Final Thoughts

By: Shaun McInnis, GameSpot - Posted on Mar 24, 2011
Dragon Age II - Final Thoughts

The release of Dragon Age II sparked a controversy among the role-playing game community. Some enjoyed the changes BioWare had made in its follow-up RPG. Others decried BioWare for purportedly neglecting its most ardent fans with simplified mechanics. We spoke to Mike Laidlaw, lead designer on Dragon Age II, to get his thoughts on the debate, the reasoning behind some of the changes, and what he thinks of the finished product.

GameSpot: How do you think the reception for Dragon Age II would have been different if this had been the first game in the series?

Mike Laidlaw: I think it would have been different--exactly how is probably hard to tell, at this point. When you think about Dragon Age, one of the things that comes to mind is the legacy, going back to the Baldur's Gate games and that kind of thing. Actually, [that comparison] was drawn during Origins. It was an explicit, spiritual successor kind of connection. Certainly, I think Origins did a very good job of following in that vein. What Dragon Age II does, or what I perceive it as doing, is take a lot of those gameplay elements--working together as a team, functioning as a combat unit, having a story that unfolds with choices (all of those core things that I see as principal to both Baldur's Gate and, more importantly, to Dragon Age)--and tries to bring some newer ideas to the table (elements of responsiveness, elements of interactivity in the way those fights are coordinated) into what I think is a more modern setting and expectation. For most players, the idea of the solo combat is surprising.

I do think Dragon Age II is running up against some elements of Origins, and it's not something we went into completely blind. We certainly knew there would be some friction between what Origins players have come to expect and what Dragon Age II delivers. But I don't see the two in opposition to each other. I've talked to Origins players who said, "As soon as I moved it to hard, I totally see where Origins is again." That's fair, and I think that's something over time we'll continue to tune and capitalize on that fusion between the Origins experience and Dragon Age II.

"We certainly knew there would be some friction between what Origins players have come to expect and what Dragon Age II delivers."

GS: In terms of the story in Dragon Age II, it feels like Hawke's rise in Kirkwall comes at the expense of the gameworld as a whole. In contrast, the player saw and learned a lot about the world in Origins. Is the idea that Dragon Age II has a narrower focus and lacks the broader context a fair assessment of the story?

ML: The goal that we were going for is twofold. First, we did want to focus in on a more personal experience--the experience of one person and not the avatar of an organization. To be quite frank, that's a story we told before, and while there's nothing wrong with it, we really wanted to challenge ourselves to not have you end up in the Jedi Order or a Child of Baal, what have you. The story is tighter, and what I think it does is it moves through time in a way that we move through space in Origins.

In Origins, we very much had a mandate to bring a new fantasy world to life--one country, specifically, of a new fantasy world to life. And we moved around through that. But really, what I want to see Dragon Age II set up is a world that's evolving over time just in the same way that Ferelden, as the Blight advanced, evolved through space. When I look where Dragon Age II leaves us, it leaves us with a phase that's inherently more interesting--one where we see strife and things falling apart. This is in stark contrast to the ending of Origins, where we saw things resolved. Oh good, the Blight's over. That's great. We can all go back to minor politicking, which as comfortable as that would be makes for a far less compelling world to be in.

So, in that respect, I think the narrow focus of Dragon Age II really does what we originally hoped to do, which is to say, "This is an event. We want to change the world." As our lead writer said, we want to kick over the sand castle we just built to change something and to show that this is a dynamic space. But we don't want to do it in a way that's just a heavy-handed, "And then a war started!" What we wanted to do is show in a uniquely Dragon Age way this is something that people and real passions and motivations got involved in. It wasn't just an event that happened because it seemed convenient for the narrative.


I'm just going to say this once.

.....the ending is entirely convenient for the narrative. Every mage is a blood mage and the Meredith was driven crazy by a plot point not because of any kind of character flaw.

If the purpose was for human and human emotions to be the cause for the world to change then it should be humans and their emotions that changed the world. Not demons and plot items.

#157
rpx78noob

rpx78noob
  • Members
  • 105 messages

Akulakhan wrote...

EA Superior: What did we learn, Laidlaw?
Mike Laidlaw: I don't know, sir.
EA Superior: I don't ****in' know either. I guess we learned not to do it again.
Mike Laidlaw: Yes, sir.
EA Superior: I'm ****ed if I know what we did.
Mike Laidlaw: Yes, sir, it's, uh, hard to say.
EA Superior: Jesus ****ing Christ.

rpx78noob wrote...

Blastback wrote...

I felt that some of his responses were a bit to dismisive of some of the complaints.

One thing I don't agree with is that the Warden didn't have as much personality. The Warden had plenty in my mind, it was just left more to the player to create and envision. There have been more than enough humerous options for silent PC's to prove that you are not relegated to the role of straight man.


The warden had plenty in my mind too, that's exactly the point. Fantasy.

Choosing the dialogue, with care, makes the player/warden just what he is.

"
it was just left more to the player to create and envision" 

This is art my friends and fantasy at work in player's minds.


Yeah, with the exception that the players mind don't matter **** since the dialogue was already defined and this system don't show what the main character will say.

What is the problem of putting the exact same line that the player will say? Reading is the hard, uh!? Also, console players cannot into words.



I agree.

#158
StingingVelvet

StingingVelvet
  • Members
  • 1 116 messages

Otterwarden wrote...

Defensive reviews are NOT a good thing, even if they score you high.

Dated March 25, 2011

http://www.pcworld.i...on_age_2/381003

"Dragon Age 2 is not Dragon Age. It seems like an obvious truism, but given the backlash Bioware's sequel has suffered, it is a statement that people seem to need reminding of.

Indeed, in doing something so dramatically different, Bioware has inadvertently given other developers and publishers all the reason in the world to keep their top franchises safe and stale — if you take risks, you'll ****** off some very vocal fanboys."


Wow, that's an annoying little review.

There are two ways Dragon Age 2 fails.  The first is in making bad decisions on what kind of game to make.  This one is subjective obviously, so you could say bashing the game based on it is being a bit dramatic.  The second way though is just doing a bad job at what they were aiming to do, which is not subjective and in my experience a first for Bioware.  Say what you will about Mass Effect 2's RPG elements or whatever else, but for the game they wanted to make they accomplished it flawlessly.  Dragon Age 2 is not a success even judging it purely on what they wanted it to be.

#159
Otterwarden

Otterwarden
  • Members
  • 569 messages

StingingVelvet wrote...

Wow, that's an annoying little review.


It is, isn't it.  Had no idea I was a fanboy...lol

All of a sudden customers are not allowed to complain when they don't like the direction a product "improvement" is taking, as it obviously stiffles innovation.  How patronizing.

#160
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 706 messages

Akulakhan wrote...
What is the problem of putting the exact same line that the player will say? Reading is the hard, uh!? Also, console players cannot into words.


That one's easy. Focus group tests showed that players were annoyed by reading a line and then hearing the exact same line again. They preferred the paraphrases.

#161
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 706 messages

StingingVelvet wrote...
 Say what you will about Mass Effect 2's RPG elements or whatever else, but for the game they wanted to make they accomplished it flawlessly.  Dragon Age 2 is not a success even judging it purely on what they wanted it to be.


That's a good point. It does raise problems going forward, though. How do they sort out implementation problems from bad goals?

#162
Merced652

Merced652
  • Members
  • 1 661 messages

AlanC9 wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...
 Say what you will about Mass Effect 2's RPG elements or whatever else, but for the game they wanted to make they accomplished it flawlessly.  Dragon Age 2 is not a success even judging it purely on what they wanted it to be.


That's a good point. It does raise problems going forward, though. How do they sort out implementation problems from bad goals?


I'd say you do a 180 to when there were rather clear issues that needed to change, thus negating any implementation problems that arose from da2. From that point one could reevaluate goals, but from Laidlaw's qoutes theres no way in hell that will happen apparently. 

#163
Sithlord715

Sithlord715
  • Members
  • 38 messages
God, the day Laidlaw gets fired from Bioware is the day I get all my friends over and we all dance around to "Yub Nub" ewok style

Please, let that day be soon

#164
steve1945

steve1945
  • Members
  • 261 messages
After reading the interview and vommiting blood and bile from the sheer and unfeeling HATE I feel I have to say....

Well actually I have nothing more to say then that. Other then that I agree with Sithlord. Except perhaps I will instead form the pyramid fingers of evil contemplation while saying "Yes....Yes...."

#165
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 706 messages

Merced652 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...
 Say what you will about Mass Effect 2's RPG elements or whatever else, but for the game they wanted to make they accomplished it flawlessly.  Dragon Age 2 is not a success even judging it purely on what they wanted it to be.


That's a good point. It does raise problems going forward, though. How do they sort out implementation problems from bad goals?


I'd say you do a 180 to when there were rather clear issues that needed to change, thus negating any implementation problems that arose from da2. From that point one could reevaluate goals, but from Laidlaw's qoutes theres no way in hell that will happen apparently. 


I guess I wasn't clear. Since there's so much noise from bad implementation issues, how do you know whether a goal was bad or not?

#166
Merced652

Merced652
  • Members
  • 1 661 messages

AlanC9 wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...
 Say what you will about Mass Effect 2's RPG elements or whatever else, but for the game they wanted to make they accomplished it flawlessly.  Dragon Age 2 is not a success even judging it purely on what they wanted it to be.


That's a good point. It does raise problems going forward, though. How do they sort out implementation problems from bad goals?


I'd say you do a 180 to when there were rather clear issues that needed to change, thus negating any implementation problems that arose from da2. From that point one could reevaluate goals, but from Laidlaw's qoutes theres no way in hell that will happen apparently. 


I guess I wasn't clear. Since there's so much noise from bad implementation issues, how do you know whether a goal was bad or not?


There was feedback on origins, some of it even negative. :D My own being that archers and 2h warriors were fairly bad in comparison. Its not so much a issue of balancing the classes and more a issue of making all them viable and fun. The only other worthy goal i can speak to that was mentioned often was useless abilities like most of the creation line etc. 

As far as talents go i think DA2 was actually superior to DAO (**** the cats out of the bag), but i'm pretty sure they can look back and see what were worthy goals and what was laidlaw's stupid ass agenda. 

Edit: Also loot, loot in origins was bad, but its a wash between it and DA2. DA2 had lots of loot, too bad i useds a grand total of like 5% of it. 

Modifié par Merced652, 25 mars 2011 - 09:11 .


#167
Balerion84

Balerion84
  • Members
  • 388 messages
I can't read the nonsense mr. Laidlaw says anymore. That guy is either absolutely delusional, is afraid to speak honestly in fear of losing his job or he really, really believes all that. I don't know what's worse.

Are there people out there who are saying, "I could not play Origins, but love Dragon Age II" or "I couldn't play Origins and this is more of the same."

And where's the group of people saying "I loved Origins, but I couldn't stand Dragon Age II"? Or does this group not exists in Mike Laidlaw's little world?
To me it looks like he really doesn't like Origins and either consciously or subconsciously filters the good of Origins and bad of DA2.

Modifié par Balerion84, 25 mars 2011 - 09:19 .


#168
Tirigon

Tirigon
  • Members
  • 8 573 messages

Crash_7 wrote...

Still so much pain being felt over DA 2!

I read the interview and the topic respondents.  Oh, where to start?  Questions.

Is it wrong to try and increase your player base?
Is it wrong to make traditional stat based RPG elements more accessible?
Is it wrong to alter the visual style of combat?
Is it wrong to hide/automate complexity?
Is it wrong to guide the players interaction with the game world?



I say yes to all.

#169
Tommy6860

Tommy6860
  • Members
  • 2 488 messages

Fhaileas wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

mpchi wrote...

I don't know. It seems like people forgot that Laidlaw was also the lead game designer of DA:O that you all loved so much.


In case you didn't know, Laidlaw wasn't the ONLY LD on Origins. One of them, Brent Knowles left Bioware/EA over the direction DA2 was going after it started development. He even placed that on his personal webite and he was sad about it.


Actually as someone else has already stated Brent Knowles "was" the "only" LD for DA:O; Mike Laidlaw was brought on board as LD for the console ports and subsequent DLCs as well as the expansion, "after" Knowles had declined to work on DA 2 due to differences in creative vision. 


I can't say about ML being brought onboard and when, but there actually were three DLs on Origins. Aside from Brent and Mike, there was also James Ohlen, who has been with Bioware from near the beginning. He was the lead on the first BG. But he is noticeably absent from DA2. I already knew about Knowles differences (you can read them on his site or at Wiki) and I was about to cancel my pre-order, now I wish I had.

#170
Wulfram

Wulfram
  • Members
  • 18 950 messages
What I don't understand is why Laidlaw interviews always make it sound like Origins was a failure.

Personally, I like both games.

#171
Warheadz

Warheadz
  • Members
  • 2 573 messages
Only one word can describe that interview:
lolwut?

Oh god. I hate Laidlaw more and more every minute. And also, after this line I can pretty safely say that I am done with this franchise.
"The big key is to not adjust 180 degrees again, because we've done this."
So hooray. More of this DA2 crap coming up.

#172
Tripedius

Tripedius
  • Members
  • 467 messages
You can like or dislike the combat mechanics, like or dislike the story and dialogue options that's personal taste. But that you can be proud of the constant reuse of areas, the bugs and flaws, the same boring fight, the total lack of detail in the surroundings and npc's, etc. is a very, very big insult to your customers. I'm going to boycot all BW products from now on as it seems those will not be for me. Luckely I get some kind of comfort from the idea TOR is going to fail miserably.

#173
Tommy6860

Tommy6860
  • Members
  • 2 488 messages

Otterwarden wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

And this is one of the harshest reviews I have ever seen for a game, ever.


(Excerpt)

www.gamecritics.com/brad-gallaway/dragon-age-ii-review


Yes, and I see that his stuff only gets filed under xbox 360 on metacritic.  Shame really, because I think the PC crowd would be in total agreement.  Orctowngrot wrote an interesting user review on March 23 under the PC section.  It mentioned something that I had noticed as well, which is the phraseology of some of the 10 score posts.  It's not natural, too polished, too pointed in the commentary, and too few typos.


Thanks for sharing that and it was an interesting perspective for sure. I don't agree with the Mass Effect 2 analogies, but to each their own in how their experiences are with the ME series. I liked it a lot, but not nearly as much as ME. I am really sad about Dragion Age now. DA:O was the love of an RPG I hadn't experienced for years, though I liked Fallout 3 and Oblivion, those are not the romantic type RPGs that offer deep conversation and character interaction, something I truly look for in an RPG. I feel now that DA2 left me for another lover, for want of a better description.

#174
KalDurenik

KalDurenik
  • Members
  • 574 messages
Well atleast we are sure that one should not buy future Bioware games \\o/...
They are going to continue to ignore anything bad about the game and continue to move towards action / adventure game section while removing more and more rpg elements :>

#175
Aurgelmir

Aurgelmir
  • Members
  • 159 messages

Tommy6860 wrote...

I can't say about ML being brought onboard and when, but there actually were three DLs on Origins. Aside from Brent and Mike, there was also James Ohlen, who has been with Bioware from near the beginning. He was the lead on the first BG. But he is noticeably absent from DA2. I already knew about Knowles differences (you can read them on his site or at Wiki) and I was about to cancel my pre-order, now I wish I had.


I'm done with Dragon Age I think. It's not going to get any better under Mike Laidlaw and David Gaider.

James Ohlen is working on TOR I think.

What annoys me most is when you look through interviews that Mike Laidlaw done when he was bigging up Origins you see how much he likes what they done with DA:O. Then he's given DA2 by himself, since the others didn't want it or moved onto bigger things, and he just tears everything 'Origins' out of DA2. He's so full of crap.

Him and David Gaider should be taken off existing franchises. If they don't want to play within the rules a franchise sets then they should make their own projects.

Modifié par Aurgelmir, 25 mars 2011 - 12:45 .