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[dragonflight288]

Okay. I've noticed several threads go slightly off topic as people enjoy debating Meredith vs Orsino, Merrill being cute and loveable vs annoying and arrogant, Anders vs Fenris being right or wrong.

Therefore I thought I'd start this topic up where everyone can discuss the sanity of the residents in Kirkwall and never be off topic. Is Meredith more sympathetic than Orsino? Does Fenris have the righ idea that ALL mages are monsters? Is blowing up the chantry justified?

I have my own opinions on those questions and many others, but I figured this would be a good place for everyone to discuss these questions, cordially and respectfully I hope, and never be off topic.

[Irish Coffee]

Orsino is more sympathetic because while he may condone the actions of a mad man killing woman for experiments, he never condones genocide.

Fenris is wrong about all mages being monsters. We just get nothing but blood mages shoved into our face in DA2 while in DAO we had plenty of examples of kind mages.

Why would blowing up any building that houses nothing but innocent non-combatitive people ever be justified? That's like justifying the blowing up a school full of students because you disagree with the Principal's moral stance of neutrality.

[Torax]

There is just points that lead the story as it goes. For example I've never been able to go all Jacob Taylor on some Templars, "And if you treat them like animals, big shock. They become animals".

[Meathooks333]

After playing through the first time and siding with the mages. I found myself sympathizing with Meredith more than Orsino. Maybe because I favor honorable characters. As soon as I found out Orsino was willing to become an abomination and bring harm to anyone around him, I began to think of him as a pathetic man. He lost any respect I had for him.

Meredith, while very extreme, was dealing with fighting the madness from the lyrium idol turned weapon. When she came into possesion of this, she began losing her mind. The idol seemed to act not unlike a desire demon, in that it amplified the owner's greatest wants. Bartrand wanted money and treasure to restore House Tethras. Meredith wanted Kirkwall's citizens to be safe from Maleficar. I see her more as a victim of the idol. She didn't understand the consequences of this thing, while Orsino knew exactly what he was doing with blood magic.

Maybe it's just Meredith's ignorance that makes me feel bad for her.

[Maria Caliban]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Therefore I thought I'd start this topic up where everyone can discuss the sanity of the residents in Kirkwall and never be off topic. Is Meredith more sympathetic than Orsino? Does Fenris have the righ idea that ALL mages are monsters? Is blowing up the chantry justified?

You'll need to define insanity.

I'll speculate that if the real world had abominations, and one could join with a spirit while retaining some of one's personality and free will, the resultant impact on your mental state would be considered a mental disorder if it was negative enough.

Meredith could be considered akin to someone whose brain has been damaged through radiation.

Orsino and Fenris don't show any signs of insanity.

[Torax]

I can't have sympathy for either of them. Meredith's pride allowed her to believe she could control it. She also tried to tell herself it was the maker fueling the power not something else. Her rage and want of vengeance fueled her actions against the circle over the years. Especially all the increasing problems from act 2 and 3 as the Lyrium continued to pollute her mind.

Orsino gave in to the fact of always being told you are evil and a blood mage so eventually why not use it. Especially against a blind tyrant in front of you that you are powerless to stop. It's not like they could use more lyrium to protect themselves. So they turn to blood magic. Pride on their part to think they can control what happens when they use such power. Not to mention the city being a hot bed for blood magic in the past. Also outside parties helping to drive it all in that direction.

Meredith and Orsino are both pathetic and prideful. Both a waste and no matter what I can't agree that every magi has to be killed. They all aren't evil. Plus I still think Duncan is right, "I sometimes wonder if the Chantry's many laws regarding magic are even necessary."

Hell apparently a Templar in the past let the Champion's father go because he knew he wasn't a harm to others and only wanted the freedom to have a family.

[Kawamura]

Meathooks333 wrote...

After playing through the first time and siding with the mages. I found myself sympathizing with Meredith more than Orsino. Maybe because I favor honorable characters. As soon as I found out Orsino was willing to become an abomination and bring harm to anyone around him, I began to think of him as a pathetic man. He lost any respect I had for him.

When treated poorly your whole life, told you'll amount to nothing but a monster, then backed into a corner where you're watching everyone that's been the closest you've had to a family murdered around you for an unfortunate accident of both, cracking seems like a very possible action. (I'm a minority several times over and I've seen folks in my communities go "you know what, **** it, I'm just going to be the useless piece of crap everyone expects", so part of that feeling he has, I identify with.)

I feel sorry for both. Meredith is trying to do right. Orsino is trying to protect those he loves and, when he fails, responds with great emotion. I respect him for getting to that point before doing it. I respect Meredith for her convinctions. I feel sorry that both had to be driven to such miserable places by the events of their lives.

[Meathooks333]

Thanks for bringing up pride, Torax. Honestly, until now I hadn't thought of it as a factor determining my like or dislike for these two characters. Looking on it this way, I think I was a liitle shocked to see Orsino brought low like that. I looked at him as though he might actually be able to handle blood magic, with the fortitude and willpower to withstand any demon that might attempt to make an abomination of him.

I may need to play through the game again and pay more attention to Meredith (it really is a shame you only get to have dealings with them in the short final act). I still feel like she didn't know what she was getting into with the idol, and it slowly corrupted her mind over the years since acquiring it. Not that ignorance is an excuse, her prejudice against mages is as clear as Fenris's, but I definitely have more sympathy for her downfall than Orsino's.

[Hunter_Rick_Hayes]

To be honest, I feel they are both nuts, two extrems, I feel sorry for both of them, because they are both to pityful to hate, evil is in the action and intent, not in the idea or person.

Anders in a nut, wanting only vengence for himself, he didnt think of the good of mages only to hurt the people he belived wronged him

Fennis, is probaly the lest pityful person of that lot, he hate is for tivinter mages, being the only mages he really knows, and only wanteds to kill his master, the rest he could careless about unless he is confronted with them

[Dragonette29]

Kawamura wrote...

When treated poorly your whole life, told you'll amount to nothing but a monster, then backed into a corner where you're watching everyone that's been the closest you've had to a family murdered around you for an unfortunate accident of both, cracking seems like a very possible action. (I'm a minority several times over and I've seen folks in my communities go "you know what, **** it, I'm just going to be the useless piece of crap everyone expects", so part of that feeling he has, I identify with.)

I feel sorry for both. Meredith is trying to do right. Orsino is trying to protect those he loves and, when he fails, responds with great emotion. I respect him for getting to that point before doing it. I respect Meredith for her convinctions. I feel sorry that both had to be driven to such miserable places by the events of their lives.

Beautifully said

I'd write something more, but we've already had this discussion down in the Orsiono thread and it doesn't lead anywhere.
I'll just keep track of what others are saying.

[Saboteur-6]

I think at this point...I'm more interested as to the WHY the two sides were so vehemently clashing with one another There's heavy implication that there was something more sinister at work if you complete the "Enigma of Kirkwall" questline and read the notes from the Band of Three. It's also significant to point out that Meredith was under the influence of the pure lyrium idol and that her "sanity" was severely impacted by it.

Modifié par Vech24, 25 mars 2011 - 01:02 .

[Torax]

The idol twisted her own rage and fear against her. Her pride and belief of being in the right was probably what let her think she could control it. Like any of them.

Merrill believed that no matter what that she could work with a demon and no harm would come because she was strong enough to resist it. It's that pride that let her give in to a pride demon in the fade. Her heart was in the right place but her pride wouldn't let her open her eyes to what was happening. Which is what Flemeth warned her about.

Now back to Meredith. Being a a strong Templar probably made her believe she was above the influence of an outside force. Don't forget when she was invoking the power of the Idol/Sword she was calling the Maker to fuel it. Much like Lady Harimann in act 2. Since they are non mages they almost act with this belief that they are above being harmed by outside forces.

Now look at the quest in Enemies Amongst Us. Much of what probably fueled those Demon powered Magi was an attempt to prove to the Templars that they are also not immune. To give them unrest. So much of the plot is around trying to go after the pride of all those who believed they were above the influence of the dark forces around them. Mages maybe more vulnerable to demons in the fade. But in Kirkwall the Demons move far more openly and are far more hungry.

Modifié par Torax, 25 mars 2011 - 01:50 .

[Raiil]

Everyone in Kirkwall is generally bat**** crazy. Hawke included.

If my Hawke could have, she would have bundled her entire crew onto a ship and sailed for fairer waters.

[CrookedAsylum]

Valentia X wrote...

Everyone in Kirkwall is generally bat**** crazy. Hawke included.

If my Hawke could have, she would have bundled her entire crew onto a ship and sailed for fairer waters.

I think Hawke said it best: "I never meet anyone normal."

[Raiil]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Everyone in Kirkwall is generally bat**** crazy. Hawke included.

If my Hawke could have, she would have bundled her entire crew onto a ship and sailed for fairer waters.

I think Hawke said it best: "I never meet anyone normal."

That seems about right. Everyone in Kirkwall has their own sort of special. Whether it's abusing elven children, sewing together women, eating the flesh of your servants...


I think someone might have dumped a toxic amount of lyrium in the water.

[Torax]

"Can't anyone in this place solve it's own problems?" "Must be something in the water."

[Raiil]

Torax wrote...

"Can't anyone in this place solve it's own problems?" "Must be something in the water."

Kirkwall suffers the same thing as Ferelden; after a certain point, people can't even wipe their own bottom without assistance. 

[Jayphil]

Valentia X wrote...

Torax wrote...

"Can't anyone in this place solve it's own problems?" "Must be something in the water."

Kirkwall suffers the same thing as Ferelden; after a certain point, people can't even wipe their own bottom without assistance. 

I think Ferelden suffered something so much more than kirkwall... kirk wall was insane yes. but the breaking point was when hawke went to that expedition, accident or not (obviously they didnt know what they got in the expedition) it is one of the breaking point, to merediths sanity. not to mention the qun. D.Age series has so much potential to expand on.. the story line, it will take a lot of time but its potential is GOLDEN

[dragonflight288]

I think Ferelden suffered something so much more than kirkwall... kirk wall was insane yes. but the breaking point was when hawke went to that expedition, accident or not (obviously they didnt know what they got in the expedition) it is one of the breaking point, to merediths sanity. not to mention the qun. D.Age series has so much potential to expand on.. the story line, it will take a lot of time but its potential is GOLDEN

Very nice. And right before we enter the deep roads, Cassandra and Varic begin talking and Cassandra is adamant that Hawke must have knew about the idol, while Varic confesses none of them knew, or it would have been very different. When they found that lyrium idol, all anyone was thinking was profit. Anders did put it well when he said he sensed magic about it, and not a good kind. Varic put it very well when he called it cursed.

And yes, that idol played a huge role in the Last Straw quest, but ultimately, I think that final confrontation was inevitable. Meredith had too much pride and hatred of mages, Orsino was too secretive when he should have been working with the Templars instead of hiding people like Quentin or blood mages. Then there were the regular templars who were vindictive, like Ser Alrik and his tranquil solution. The blood mages who infected the templar recruits with demons. These things were boiling over in Kirkwall in acts 1 and 2.

[Jayphil]

There really is no gauge for sanity, to each his own, I'd say merrill is insane but she's just curious, Fenris a mage hater to the extreme just suffers from exploitation from one mage he was associated. What we can clearly see here is the paranoia.. Templars are way too paranoid with mages,

on blowing up the chantry no matter what, it is never justified, anders going "there can be no compromise" if You can just cut in there and say "yeah there wont be any... after what YOU DID". which led to the annulment i was like just wow! wth did you do that for!? he was pretty sane the first time you meet him and he quickly turned for the worse when karl was turned tranquil, thats when everything unraveled for him, he went from underground mage protestor to a very vocal radical.... I'd even agree with carver on him "shove your plight"

The events in DA will cause libertarians a stronger holding in the Circle, mages will fight back... its going to be so ironic when my hawke (since I choose to side with the templars) is tasked to lead a crusade against a magi rebellion. at the helm of the templar and I being a mage myself.. its an exalted march!

Modifié par Jayphil, 25 mars 2011 - 04:16 .

[dragonflight288]

Hmm. Interesting view. I agree that after what Anders did, there could have been no compromise, but I don't think Meredith or Orsino were willing to compromise to begin with. They both wanted it their way or not at all.

I'm not justifying what Anders did, I'm completely against it as I actually liked the Grand Cleric. Didn't agree with her neutrality, but I understood it and I genuinely respected it. I also respected that when we warn her that the Divine wants her removed from Kirkwall, she refused to leave and wished to do her duty as the Grand Cleric. I killed Anders for that (I was a mage and a decent healer)

But, I don't think compromise was an option before he blew up the chantry either. Meredith wouldn't back down or let anyone try to become viscount. And the seneschal admits that the templars wanted someone who would look the other way, and the templars do try to get Aveline to step down so they can take over the guard. I say-NO WAY! Meredith doesn't have any right to keep all that political power for three years. Three years.

Of course, Orsino was still a scoundrel who didn't deserve to be First Enchanter because of who he hid.

[Jayphil]

Orsino deserved to die... after what he did sanctioning the research of that lily killer... I'd use his research to bring him back to life and kill him again if there was a choice...

Taking down meredith and putting cullen in charge would have been a nice option, i am amazed how his character evolved in the final act. from origins to this point, major props to the guy.. and the i hated the mages for killing ser thrask the only good templar around along with ser emeric

[dragonflight288]

So yes, Kirkwall is insane.

Hawke: I never meet anyone normal.