518 réponses à ce sujet

[neppakyo]

Zalekanzer wrote...

I found Dragon Age 2 improved over Dragon Age: Origins in nearly every way. Mr. Laidlaw should be given a hearty pat on the back and congratulations.

Ahh, a fan of dead souless cities, recycled areas and repetativnes, and mindless waves of of enemies that you just keep pressing the 'awesome' button over and over again

[Anzer]

neppakyo wrote...

Ahh, a fan of dead souless cities, recycled areas and repetativnes, and mindless waves of of enemies that you just keep pressing the 'awesome' button over and over again

The only thing on your list that is accurate is the recycled maps. Everything else is your subjective opinion.

[neppakyo]

You mean there were more than 20 people in the entire city of kirkwall? You mean i didn't pass through the city of static NPC's, maybe the odd group of 2 or 4, in sparse locations?

I really want your copy of DA2, sounds better than mine.

[addu2urmanapool]

I love (and by love I mean detest) how Bioware Defenders/Fanboys will deny, deny, deny every fact and data point, even when aggregated with each other to form an overwhelming indictment of Laidlaw, EA and co.

[neppakyo]

It's also annoying when people say DA2 isn't a sequel and you shouldn't compare the games, a few fail to understand the definition of the word sequel.

*steps on his soapbox, clears his throat*

"Ahem. *taps the microphone a couple times* THE DRAGON AGE MAIN WEBSITE EXPLICITLY SAYS DA2 IS A SEQUEL *cough cough* Sorry."

*steps off of the soapbox*

kay, rant done. Please continue

[Cody211282]

addu2urmanapool wrote...

I love (and by love I mean detest) how Bioware Defenders/Fanboys will deny, deny, deny every fact and data point, even when aggregated with each other to form an overwhelming indictment of Laidlaw, EA and co.

To be fair the other side does it a lot as well.

[MrTijger]

addu2urmanapool wrote...

I love (and by love I mean detest) how Bioware Defenders/Fanboys will deny, deny, deny every fact and data point, even when aggregated with each other to form an overwhelming indictment of Laidlaw, EA and co.

*snigger* and I love how the uh...other side keeps confusing opinion for facts and 'data points' and cant even seem to comprehend that Mike Laidlaw is actually not even the project lead for DA 2.

[addu2urmanapool]

Mike Laidlaw's official title is "Creative Director" for the entire Dragon Age franchise.

http://ca.linkedin.c...idlaw/1/53a/b09

Modifié par addu2urmanapool, 28 mars 2011 - 07:11 .

[Cody211282]

MrTijger wrote...

addu2urmanapool wrote...

I love (and by love I mean detest) how Bioware Defenders/Fanboys will deny, deny, deny every fact and data point, even when aggregated with each other to form an overwhelming indictment of Laidlaw, EA and co.

*snigger* and I love how the uh...other side keeps confusing opinion for facts and 'data points' and cant even seem to comprehend that Mike Laidlaw is actually not even the project lead for DA 2.

Honestly it has to do with him doing all the interveiws.

[addu2urmanapool]

I must say, I do admire the work that Mr. Laidlaw put into Jade Empire and Dragon Age: Origins. It is most likely that Laidlaw was put into a bad position by EA (no way to win with such a limited budget), and probably made a few bad decisions as well.

[Balerion84]

I haven't read all the 17 pages, so this was probably discussed, but who cares, 17 pages is too many , so let me get this straight:

Mike Laidlaw is responsible for Jade Empire (which I enjoyed, though once was enough and never felt the need to replay it again) and DA2. Brent Knowles was the one responsible for DA:O, right? Then he quit because of the direction DA2 and BioWare were headed, after which Mike Laidlaw took over the DA franchise. Is this correct?

Well, if that's the case we know in which direction the DA games will go. What upsets me, is that Mike Laidlaw seems to be someone who doesn't like the classic rpgs (based on his interviews, especially the one where he mentioned groups of people who couldn't play DA:O, twice, while never mentioning people who enjoyed DA:O). He basically wants to make action rpgs. So we'll be having 2 Mass Effect franchises from now on, with one being in space and the other a fantasy... That sucks. I love the ME franchise sure, but to me it looks like Mike Laidlaw just wants to copy the success of Mass Effect, only with different textures. *sigh*
I seriously want to see someone who doesn't want to just copy, but actually create, leading the development of future DA games. I want mr. Laidlaw far away from the DA franchise. Though I guess that's not gonna happen. Oh well.

[MrTijger]

Balerion84 wrote...

I haven't read all the 17 pages, so this was probably discussed, but who cares, 17 pages is too many , so let me get this straight:

Mike Laidlaw is responsible for Jade Empire (which I enjoyed, though once was enough and never felt the need to replay it again) and DA2. Brent Knowles was the one responsible for DA:O, right? Then he quit because of the direction DA2 and BioWare were headed, after which Mike Laidlaw took over the DA franchise. Is this correct?

Yes, that is essentially correct IF the sparse information on this score is correct. Lets not forget all the sources we have on that is one (1) blog posting.
Also, if that is correct then Laidlaw did not decide the changes from DAO to DA 2 but those were decided before he came on board as lead design.

Well, if that's the case we know in which direction the DA games will go. What upsets me, is that Mike Laidlaw seems to be someone who doesn't like the classic rpgs (based on his interviews, especially the one where he mentioned groups of people who couldn't play DA:O, twice, while never mentioning people who enjoyed DA:O). He basically wants to make action rpgs. So we'll be having 2 Mass Effect franchises from now on, with one being in space and the other a fantasy... That sucks. I love the ME franchise sure, but to me it looks like Mike Laidlaw just wants to copy the success of Mass Effect, only with different textures. *sigh*
I seriously want to see someone who doesn't want to just copy, but actually create, leading the development of future DA games. I want mr. Laidlaw far away from the DA franchise. Though I guess that's not gonna happen. Oh well.

You are assuming an qwful lot from very little. First of all, like I said, the decisions were made before Laidlaw came onboard, second, he doesnt say he doesnt like classic rpg's, he said he would like to engage people who put DAO away within the hour and not lose those.

As for the rest....nah, not worth going in to.

[Balerion84]

MrTijger wrote...

You are assuming an qwful lot from very little. First of all, like I said, the decisions were made before Laidlaw came onboard, second, he doesnt say he doesnt like classic rpg's, he said he would like to engage people who put DAO away within the hour and not lose those.

As for the rest....nah, not worth going in to.

Let's see... isn't Laidlaw the lead designer? That means it's his vision that made DA2. He's the one coordinating it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what lead designer is supposed to do.
And as I said, based on the stuff he says and the games he had his fingers on, it looks to me, he doesn't want to make classic rpgs. Either he doesn't like them or thinks they are dead (which was proved wrong by DA:O)
Also, correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't DA:O a success? I heard it sold well for a new IP. So shouldn't they EXPAND on that? And the difference between DA:O and DA2 with 2 different lead designers doesn't seem a like pure coincidence to me. Don't know about you though...

[MrTijger]

Balerion84 wrote...

Let's see... isn't Laidlaw the lead designer? That means it's his vision that made DA2. He's the one coordinating it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what lead designer is supposed to do.
And as I said, based on the stuff he says and the games he had his fingers on, it looks to me, he doesn't want to make classic rpgs. Either he doesn't like them or thinks they are dead (which was proved wrong by DA:O)
Also, correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't DA:O a success? I heard it sold well for a new IP. So shouldn't they EXPAND on that? And the difference between DA:O and DA2 with 2 different lead designers doesn't seem a like pure coincidence to me. Don't know about you though...

Again, assumptions. We dont know how things work in Bioware when it comes to game design and who has final say, we only know a timeline based on one source that states that the redesign was in before Mike Laidlaw was.
Second, the lead designer certainly has a large impact but I do believe that in a public company he's certainly not the one making all the decisions and he is not the project leader.

I find it indicative that the easy way is sought here, blame a single person, or that other staple, blame EA, when there's more than enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that the change in course from DAO to DA 2 was a Bioware decision and not that of a single person.
Furthermore, you do realize that Mike Laidlaw was the Lead Developer on DAO, right?

[Cody211282]

MrTijger wrote...

Furthermore, you do realize that Mike Laidlaw was the Lead Developer on DAO, right?

No Brent Knowles was lead for that game actauly.

http://blog.brentkno.../lazy-designer/

[MrTijger]

Cody211282 wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

Furthermore, you do realize that Mike Laidlaw was the Lead Developer on DAO, right?

No Brent Knowles was lead for that game actauly.

http://blog.brentkno.../lazy-designer/

No, Brent was Lead Designer, Mike Laidlaw was Lead Developer

Edit: Mea culpa, it was actually more convoluted, there were 3 lead designers: Brent Knowles, Mike Laidlaw, James Ohlen
There are also 2 producers listed, perhaps not surprising given that DAO took more than 4 years to develop.

Modifié par MrTijger, 28 mars 2011 - 08:17 .

[Cody211282]

MrTijger wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

Furthermore, you do realize that Mike Laidlaw was the Lead Developer on DAO, right?

No Brent Knowles was lead for that game actauly.

http://blog.brentkno.../lazy-designer/

No, Brent was Lead Designer, Mike Laidlaw was Lead Developer

Ok after googling for a bit I found this.

http://www.allgame.c...610&tab=credits

Basicly they were both leads, I'll check the credits for the games but so far this is the best thing I have found.

[Visanideth]

I don't see anything wrong in Laidlaw's work.

It's clear that DA2 was rushed out of the oven and would have been a massively better game with 1 more year of polishing and expanding, but that is something DLC can easily fix. If two years from now I've shelled out 30 more euros on DLC and got 20 more hours of story and a couple more acts, and some bug squashing and some interface fixing, I'll have nothing to blame Bioware for.

DA2 is a flawed game. It is however an ambitious, innovative and creative RPG. It's a huge step forward for Bioware, because it breaks most of their tired conventions, it improves their core mechanics (expecially the party system) and excels in terms of storytelling and narrative presentation in a way no WRPG did.

Considering it's the sequel to DA:O, which was an extremely polished yet the most aggressively mediocre RPG I've played in decades, I'm really pleasantly surprised. I'll take the flawed gem over the polished piece of turd.

In fact, it's almost unbelievable that we went from a game that borrowed its entire aestethics from a certain set of fantasy movies (down to a T in terms of enemy design), that managed to put us through the most trite plot ever (Sauron is waking up, kill him), that managed to get away with the most incredible and lazy subplots (the king is dying, send the knights to find the Holy Grail and save him... really?) and extended that even to companions (look, the insecure, unproven knight with an heart of gold is actually of royal blood... really? There's a dwarven warrior with red hair who's into food and beer and belches every minute, oh and a somewhat sexy witch who doesn't need men and only thinks of her own good, and the big "monster" strong and stout that seems dumb but is actually noble and loyal and.... yes, really).
I don't think anyone will manage to top DA:O as the most predictable, clichèd and, once again, aggressively mediocre RPG in the next few years. It's like Bioware was trying on purpose not to put anything original in it, to follow every storytelling clichè and to re-create every situation people has seen 2000 times before.
Coming from THAT, we got a game that did away with the concept of the fellowship travelling through the world, the empowerment of the lead as the Chosen One mechanic, that introduced companions that aren't immediately relatable walking clichès, that restrained from fanservicing the players by inflating their egos at every dialogue while knowing the fanbase is actively looking for that, tried to build up on the combat system moving away from the 3rd edition DnD alpha strike mentality of their previous iteration, actually pulling off a "shades of grey" morality system instead of DA:O's "white is cool and black is too" one... it's quite a long list, and while the list of flaws and mistake is nearly as long, once again I'll take the flawed gem and not the polished lump of coal.

[Balerion84]

MrTijger wrote...


Again, assumptions. We dont know how things work in Bioware when it comes to game design and who has final say, we only know a timeline based on one source that states that the redesign was in before Mike Laidlaw was.
Second, the lead designer certainly has a large impact but I do believe that in a public company he's certainly not the one making all the decisions and he is not the project leader.

I find it indicative that the easy way is sought here, blame a single person, or that other staple, blame EA, when there's more than enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that the change in course from DAO to DA 2 was a Bioware decision and not that of a single person.
Furthermore, you do realize that Mike Laidlaw was the Lead Developer on DAO, right?

Assumptions are fun. You are making as many as I do. Nothing wrong with that. 
As for the lead designer job, what I said is what lead designer generally does in game development, while you are just assuming that it 'might be' different in BioWare. BioWare is a game development studio, so as long as you don't come up with a proof they do it differently than others, I'll stick with general definition of lead designer's job, thank you.

Like I said, from what I understand Brent Knowles was the lead designer, he quit the lead role before the end of DA:O development when the game was almost finished and when the talk of DA2 came up, after which someone else took over from him. Is this correct? That's what I got from Knowles' blog at least. 
Then Mike Laidlaw became the lead designer of DA2. And DA2 became suddenly really different from DA:O. 
I'm pretty sure he's not the only guy making the big decisions, but he IS the lead designer. It's supposed to be his vision and that's also how he presents it in the interviews. So yes, for me, Mike Laidlaw is the main guy responsible for the direction of DA2 for better or worse. There are others of course and Laidlaw might be just a puppet, but that's an assumption I'm not going to make without some proof.

Modifié par Balerion84, 28 mars 2011 - 08:22 .

[Cody211282]

Ok people I think some of you need to watch this

http://www.escapistm...a-Game-Designer

it points out nicely what Laidlaws responsibility's were for this game.

[Icinix]

Cody211282 wrote...

Ok people I think some of you need to watch this

http://www.escapistm...a-Game-Designer

it points out nicely what Laidlaws responsibility's were for this game.

I think maybe the whole second half of that can be applied here...

[Cody211282]

Icinix wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

Ok people I think some of you need to watch this

http://www.escapistm...a-Game-Designer

it points out nicely what Laidlaws responsibility's were for this game.

I think maybe the whole second half of that can be applied here...

Now the problem is just calming people down long enough to watch it.

[Firky]

I haven't yet seen an Extra Credits that I don't like, because it's well-researched, fair and speaks to gamers in an engaging way.

But I don't think this piece tells us what one particular person's responsibilities were with regards to one particular game. The major problem that I have with this thread is that generalisations and "logic" don't equal truth.

Also, I think that the Extra Credits piece there was putting forward the "ideal." It is appropriate to do so in that kind of piece, because they were responding to emails asking about what it takes to be involved in gaming, but real people have their strengths and weaknesses.

No-one's perfect in every way, and I'm pretty sure that if someone did possess every single quality in that piece, there'd be people who still didn't like their games. It's an interesting piece though.

[Anzer]

neppakyo wrote...

You mean there were more than 20 people in the entire city of kirkwall? You mean i didn't pass through the city of static NPC's, maybe the odd group of 2 or 4, in sparse locations?

I really want your copy of DA2, sounds better than mine.

You mean just like there were more than 20 people in Denerim? You should probably take off those rose colored glasses and take a second look at what you're comparing. 

I did not say Dragon Age 2 was a flawless masterpiece, I said it improved upon the original in nearly every way.