518 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

Omika_Pearl wrote...

Saboera wrote...


If you are actually trying to argue, you are failling to do so. The ''if you ain't happy, do better'' argument is as pathetic as it can get. In case you missed it, it's divided pretty evenly between those who praise it and those who hate it (even bioware said it), it makes the ''minority of old schoolers'' not much of a minority after all. As for complaining not doing anything, you couldn't be farther from the truth. The very concept of complaints is to let them know what we wanted and expected so they can adjust for the future, which every worthy game developpers take in consideration at the very least.

Missed what?  What did I miss?  What evidence of your disgruntled nerd majority is there, beyond internet slamming and screaming?

If there's a mass demonstration of 200,000 gamer activists at ComiCon this year to protest Mike Laidlaw's existence as a human being, I'll start to take you jackasses seriously.

Hell, if even TWO of you showed up to attempt a real, human conversation with either him or other Bioware employees about this very thread, I'd be flabbergasted.

As it stands, you're all hot air and fluff.  Venting into an indifferent digital space.

And to answer an earlier assumption, I am not an EA/BW employee, but I've been around.  I know what kind of heartache and hard work goes into making most games, films, books, and other things that enable otherwise paralyzed, ambition-less people to pretend, vicariously, that they are for just a few moments, someone or something beyond themselves.

Must be nice hiding behind a screen belittling others who have a different opinion to your own.

(Disgruntled nerds?)

(Jackasses?)

(Hot air and fluff?)

Your hardly painting the picture of a superior being in your responses, do you see the irony?

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[Omika_Pearl]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Must be nice hiding behind a screen belittling others who have a different opinion to your own.

The irony!  The irony!  The IRONY!

Modifié par Omika_Pearl, 28 mars 2011 - 06:08 .

[Cybermortis]

Look at all the user/player reviews and you'll see three types of people. The 'Minority' players either fail to see anything good about the game, and are calling for heads to roll. Or they fail to see/accept there is anything bad or wrong with the game and will defend it to the death.

Both of these extreme views cane be seen by their universal habit of insulting everyone who doesn't agree with them.

Leave out these two extreme viewpoints and you can see that the majority fall between them, with most people stating they got some enjoyment out of the game but that it has some serious problems.

Now as to blaming one person, that is the natural reaction for people - we LOVE to be able to point the finger at one person, and western culture and often law reinforces this.

In reality there is not single person you can blame, but several. Was the lead designer at fault? Maybe, but someone put him in charge. Someone also set the development cycle, decided on cash now! Someone allowed a flawed game to be released. Someone messed up and managed (for example) to loose the auto-attack feature on the console versions...the list goes on and on.

Chances are 90% of the problems people have had would have been there regardless of who was the lead developer. And people would always complain about the game regardless - too few changes and it would be 'too much like DAO'. Too many and its 'Nothing like DAO'.

The basic problem with the game is simply development time given to it. If you look carefully at the comments overall - and as above ignore the extreme views - it is fairly clear that most people are of the opinion that the intent and intentions were in fact rather good, it was just the execution that fell flat due to the rushed cycle. The time given for the project was not in the hands of the lead designer, therefore it is hardly fair to blame him for it even if you disliked the direction he intended to take the game in.

Having said that he is clearly not doing himself any favours in interviews. But even this might not be purely his fault - no doubt there is someone telling him what to say/not say. And if he's just one of these people who don't express themselves well in interviews he shouldn't have been asked to give any.

[axl99]

@Cybermortis: THIS. SO VERY MUCH THIS.

We can keep debating as much as we like until the cows come home and it still won't solve anything. It's really in the developer's hands. It's not like they don't know their game is bugged, they tried to fix as many as they could before the official launch date - mostly the extreme game breaking bugs. But I'll bet you they're still plowing through a bunch while new ones pop up in place as we speak. That's usually how it is in game development.

Not exactly fair to the consumers and the fans, yes. That's an ugly truth and a bitter pill to swallow.

But I'll also bet you 10 times out of 10 they're kicking themselves for all the problems that are happening in the game. They want this project to work just as much as we do, and arguing amongst ourselves is not helping.

[scpulley]

Firky wrote...

RohanD wrote...

My point is that as far as I can tell, the one over-arching thing that I have seen throughout the game's development cycle and now into it's first weeks of release, is that the vision Laidlaw had for the franchise was at odds with the market's expectations. He has talked down Origins, mentioned that Baldur's Gate needs to be left to exist in a time capsule and said that people who are criticizing are simply afraid of change. These were very, very bad moves on his part and in my opinion he is completely and utterly wrong on every count. 

snip .... all we want is a game that is still true to what actually makes the western cRPG unique and special.

Well, I guess I'm in for a penny, in for a pound now. (And it is becoming a good discussion.)

I guess what I'd say is - was Laidlaw's vision at odds with the market's expectations? I'd argue that a 10% score drop for a sequel isn't that much of a big deal. (I've been working as a freelance games reviewer for nearly 4 years, and I do have quite a lot of experience with scoring. It's something I take very seriously.)

Also, my original point was, do we really know that this is Laidlaw's vision? It might be, or it might be a collective vision of the entire team.

There has been a vocal backlash, but can we measure it? How? Is it really representative of a majority?

I think you might have a valid point here, actually. "He has talked down Origins, mentioned that Baldur's Gate needs to be
left to exist in a time capsule and said that people who are criticizing are simply afraid of change." Although, that's not exactly the impression that I got, I know what you are referring to. Perhaps this is more of a marketing mistep than a problem with design. (But, like I've said, I thought DAII was great, so my opinion is coming from there.)

Ultimately, I really think that trying to pin blame on one person in this kind of situation, based on reasoning (however logical it may seem) and personal preferences, isn't the right way to approach providing feedback.

i agree with this for the most part. It's hard to blame one person, but he's the face to Bioware's reaction to all of this basically. If he is saying something, whether it's the general feeling of his whole team or just him personally, for better or worse, he's going to get blamed for whatever reactions result from him speaking. That's the nature of PR and marketing. So, even though he may completely disagree with his own words privately, that doesn't matter. If he doesn't like that people are pinning his comments on him and reacting in a negative way, he shouldn't be taking up the helm of this game. From what I've read, he's mostly been neutral to negative about the people critizing the game and if I was working at EA or Bioware, I'd be telling him to keep the negative comments about what he thinks of the people trashing DA 2 to himself. Every time he's tried to address the negative comments directly, he's just made it worse as he comes off as either blindingly loyal to his vision or the team's vision or just full of himself and his 'innovative' game.

[axl99]

But hats off to a guy who sticks to his vision, flawed or not. So he's trying something new with the genre. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but honestly? There really is no pleasing anyone in the end is there? I appreciate him trying to find more ways to us to enjoy playing a game differently, because things like that are in the job description.

So DA2 wasn't up to snuff. OK. Fine. There's always the next game.

Look at what happened with JRPGs. They've become so saturated and mired in perceived expectations of what should or shouldn't be that the business that's making them is collapsing on itself because no one is trying anything new and radical for fear of backlash. And believe me, there's been plenty of backlash.

If you want people full of themselves over a bad game, look at Epic Mickey. It was epic fail.

[Cybermortis]

Of course the 'Next Game' in question is Mass Effect 3...totally different development team, more development time (which includes them having started work on it before ME2 was released) and with FAR more riding on it.

What we'll need to look at is the 'next-game-but-one', which will probably have a release date 12 months from now.

[rvgifford]

My issues resolve around how in interviews with him the suggestion is that anybody who didn't love EVERY single change presented in DA2 was somehow a character flaw of the player, meaning us, the consumer. His interviews rub me the wrong way. He did acknowledge the obnoxiousness of the reused levels at least, but that's about the only point for him in the interviews I've read.

Also, rushed game; yes, definitely. I have no idea how much control over the timetable Mike had so will continue to blame the far too short development period.

[Firky]

scpulley wrote...

Every time he's tried to address the negative comments directly, he's just made it worse as he comes off as either blindingly loyal to his vision or the team's vision or just full of himself and his 'innovative' game.

Fair enough, but that's probably a matter of opinion. I haven't got that impression, for example. (But I do like the game - and Mike, for the record.)

[Chaos_1001]

Just a thought :

In my opinion this is one of the goals of the OP. To divide the community and create a total "crapstorm" within the community itself. If you all indeed do take a look around you will realize that the OP accomplished this . Think about it , this OP claimed to be a long-standing member of the community but only has 1 game registered DA 2. Their profile is totally blacked out to the public. They were not booted but in fact set that like that themselves.

[BubbleDncr]

Dragon Age 2 is a great game. I love it. Everyone I know in real life, who has played it, has also loved it. If every DA game in the future is at the quality of DA2, I will be overjoyed for years to come.

It sucks that people who don't like the game are the loudest. These forums, which are supposed to be made up of Bioware fans, is one of only 2 places I've been hearing negatives about DA2. You'd think this was the Bioware Haters Network, geez.

[addu2urmanapool]

Deny, deny, deny.

The game isn't THE WORST. But it is far worse than it should have been. Most people agree with this, as evidenced by worse reviews by both professional critics and users, in the aggregate. Worse, Bioware isn't doing what it can to fix even the simplest bugs.

Modifié par addu2urmanapool, 28 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[zyxe]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

If it's true that EA rushed the release of DA2, then the fault is not Laidlaw, but EA.

So if it is EA's fault, I can only hope that one day, EA will sell Bioware to a company that actually cares about quality games.

my only issue with this statement is that if the lead knows the game has a limited development timeframe, then it really should be designed accordingly. there were so many changes in the gameplay and interface that had to have taken a lot of time to create, integrate and troubleshoot, and with this limited timeframe perhaps the lead should have chosen to pare down the number of changes and focus on the core experience. maybe what bit them is that there were too many changes to implement correctly in the given time.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

axl99 wrote...

Ok. So it's just bugs we're complaining about?

I honestly don't care about the recycled levels. Assassin's Creed reuses them SHAMELESSLY, but the difference between them and DA2 is the fact Ubi has insane level designers on their side who do their damnest to hide the reuse from players except for the ones who actively look for things to pick apart. Like me.

If the rumours about the rushed pipeline are true, I'd be shocked and amazed at how much content they're able to put out. 20 hours of gameplay in a 8 month production timeframe? Unbelievable.

DA2 has a lot of potential on many fronts, and of course there were many missed opportunities, but if that means the devs end up learning something new and constructive from the experience, then the 60 bucks I put into a signature edition will be worth something.

We can keep whining and complaining all we want with all our armchair theories about game design, production art and writing. But we're not helping the devs if our responses aren't constructive and specific enough to address our issues with the game.

Well it's funny because most people noticed the repetition in DA2 because it was blatanly obvious. At least have the courtesy to ****** on us and tell us it's raining.

[scpulley]

Firky wrote...

scpulley wrote...

Every time he's tried to address the negative comments directly, he's just made it worse as he comes off as either blindingly loyal to his vision or the team's vision or just full of himself and his 'innovative' game.

Fair enough, but that's probably a matter of opinion. I haven't got that impression, for example. (But I do like the game - and Mike, for the record.)

I kinda feel bad for him because I think in the end he lead the charge here on the changes and was the face to all of this. Now it's blowing back at him directly cause, well, he was in front of it all. So....he can either backpedal and take flack from his employer for that or stick to his guns to keep his job, but earn the wrath of DA fans everywhere.

[zyxe]

Chaos_1001 wrote...

Just a thought :

In my opinion this is one of the goals of the OP. To divide the community and create a total "crapstorm" within the community itself. If you all indeed do take a look around you will realize that the OP accomplished this . Think about it , this OP claimed to be a long-standing member of the community but only has 1 game registered DA 2. Their profile is totally blacked out to the public. They were not booted but in fact set that like that themselves.

the community was already well divided prior to this post. also, if you read the post which was edited quite a while back you will see that the OP is stating his understanding that Mr. Laidlaw is in fact the decision maker, and that if he is incorrect, would appreciate someone with this particular knowledge to point it out. it is not a personal attack, rather an attack on the job someone did, and he is pointing at that "someone" professionally, not personally.

besides, who cares about someone's profile, or whether they have 1 or 10 games registered? or if the profile is blacked out? if it was created yesterday? lots of people roam forums without registering, and only finally register when they have something to say. nothing wrong with that.

[Cybermortis]

Note my join date.

Then note how many games I have registered.

[HawXV2]

I think Laidlaw is doing perfectly fine.

[SirGladiator]

If they want to upgrade the head guy position, and they cant get the guy who quit after making DAO back, they should bring in the woman who created the Sims Medieval, that was just UNREAL awesome, she took a regular Sims game, a series that had gotten fairly stale to be honest, and turned it into an AMAZINGLY fun and unique RPG-type game! Thats just the type of innovation we need for DA3. Whether you love or hate Mike, no doubt that woman would be a huge upgrade, she's gotta be the best game designer in the world today, its tough to say enough good things about her talent and what she's accomplished!

[Night Prowler76]

BubbleDncr wrote...

Dragon Age 2 is a great game. I love it. Everyone I know in real life, who has played it, has also loved it. If every DA game in the future is at the quality of DA2, I will be overjoyed for years to come.

It sucks that people who don't like the game are the loudest. These forums, which are supposed to be made up of Bioware fans, is one of only 2 places I've been hearing negatives about DA2. You'd think this was the Bioware Haters Network, geez.

Go on any other game forum, they all view DA2 as a failure, even the critics view it as lacklustre for BioWare, but I guess you are a right and all of them are wrong.

[axl99]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
Well it's funny because most people noticed the repetition in DA2 because it was blatanly obvious. At least have the courtesy to ****** on us and tell us it's raining.

Well that you don't blame on the game designer. You blame it on the level designer.

And you have no idea how much I want to throttle one right now.

A level designer is supposed to put all the assets together in a cohesive manner that suits the gameplay and populate it with as much stuff as possible. Unfortunately, the ball was dropped on that in more ways than one. The camera is pointed in a 3/4 down shot most of the time, if you want to see any good environment details you have to point the camera up and all around you. Especially in places like Hightown and the Gallows. 

It's a damn shame is what it is. 

The issue with repeating maps can be mitigated with adding/subtracting environmental models and changing the textures/materials to at least make them look unique. This was a trick that the Assassin Creed guys used often. Those guys had the right idea in adding lots of people to populate an area [which may cause lag issues] and using money to renovate areas [poetic justice in hindsight but not emotionally immersive enough].

That aside, Mass Effect 2 was also an excellent example of level design that suits gameplay and exploration purposes. I just wished they brought a few people on over to Dragon Age 2.

[Which reminds me. There was a donation box in a little hole in the wall in Lowtown where you can put in a max of 5 sovereigns. Anyone know what that does?]

Modifié par axl99, 29 mars 2011 - 12:23 .

[thenemesis77]

Mike and both David took a risk on a game that was going in the right path, they took it from that path and put it from where the fans where taking the series to where they wanted it to go and they thougth that whatever they put out would be fine....even if they took everything out of DAOs to make this a quick easy money gain. I think they should be held responsible for it. They took everything that was great about DAO away for some action/halfass based game that had no kind of story or main character.

DAO was set in stone for them to have alot more..but they thought they were above that and so be it, your are what you put into your work and they droped the ball and screwed us rpg fans for fans that they could not reach. Yea Iam a bastard but I speak whats on my mind and let the chips fall where they must. It's pure rubish that they would change up a game that was so going into the right path........thats what arrogance gets you, so no I don't feel a bit sorry for them.

[axl99]

I'm sure some people have played Baldur's Gate. When the "cheap MMO gameplay" comment was leveled at DA2, I couldn't help but recall the gameplay in Baldur's Gate felt like a cross between Warcraft and a much slower version of Diablo.

You want arrogance? Look in a mirror. Customers or no, some fans just have self-entitlement issues.

Modifié par axl99, 29 mars 2011 - 12:54 .