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Mike Laidlaw - The problem? Somebody else - The solution?


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#126
Chaos_1001

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FedericoV wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...

Discuss.

Edit:  To those of you saying this is a hate thread or personal attack.


But it's a personal attack.

You have written one of the most self-entitled, rude and immature thread I've ever read. I'm ashamed of that community. I suppose that the only thing you have studied in economy is the way "not" to make money. I hope that the same thing happens to you some day: some no-one that writes on a popular board that he hopes you'll be fired just to have some attention.

You are talking of the carreer and the life of a person and you should respect it no matter your like/dislike of DA2, a thing that no one will be interested in since you payed the game nonetheless (since you studied a lot of economy and devoted you whole life to it, it's strange that you have forgotten that you have allready voted with your wallet).


Absolutly this ^

#127
Saboera

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The producer is in charge of overseeing the whole project, as pointed out. Usually it's divided in teams with each lead being in charge of their department.

Mike however is in charge of the mechanics of the game and most likely the vision of what the game should become. Considering a lot of the complaints are design related, it's fair to accuse him so long you realized that what he failed at here is the management of the design team. He's not alone in creating mechanics, other people are working on that too but it's basically his job to keep the vision homogenize and he has the last word on the job accomplished by other designers. Same goes to every lead in their respective field.

The team, according to Mike was composed of Senior designers and it frankly puzzle me as to how it could end up like what it is with nothing but experienced designers but at the same time I believe it was the mistake. Having some fresh meat in the team is usually keeping things fresh.

In graphic design firms for example (another creativity related industry) it's not rare to see people retire early or straight up lose their job to younger people with fresher ideas. Usually fresh meat is involved in every project for their ideas and eagerness to prove themselves by thinking outside the box. The difficulty in a creative industry is that you consistently have to reinvent yourself. Juxtapose that with fast evolving technology and it's really hard to keep up.

The problem with senior designers, in my opinion, is that while they are experienced, it seems that they sometime go ''out of touch'' with the gaming scene due to multiple factors (family, kids, lack of time, loss of interest, so on) as they get older. The result them trying to catch up with the ''fresh ideas'' that sometime became stale already. It's more or less the case here in my opinion.

What I really question of Mike's thinking however is, having full knowledge of the timeframe allowed for Dragon Age 2 development, why suddenly decide to change so much in so little time? Instead of expanding the mechanics in place that made the success of the game, they did (in his own words) a 180 degree with it and provided us (in my opinion and many others) half baked mechanics. They are not necessarily bad but a lot of those mechanics felt very incomplete or badly executed. Not only that but doing a 180 degree with a relatively new franchise on the first sequel, alienating the fans in the process is questionable at best. I mean even if there was publisher pressure to change stuff, it's up to them to stand up to that and be confident in what they created previously.

Firing him would accomplish nothing but losing a designer that proved himself worthy. What he really needs to do however is instead of trying to damage control, denying and blaming it on X or Y, is to really accept the complaints and think about it (which i'm sure he will). All those interviews stating people don't like changes makes me frown a bit every time I read them.

Modifié par Saboera, 25 mars 2011 - 12:43 .


#128
Stinkface27

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I thought the game was incredible in every aspect. The things that disappointed me did so because they felt rushed or half-done. My conclusion is then that the game would have been that 10/10 masterpiece if it had been given a bigger timetable, but that the person in charge was amazing. Just my opinion on the subject.

#129
skyrend

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YohkoOhno wrote...

I've seen nothing to suggest ML is doing a bad job.


Hi, have you played DA2?

#130
Wulfram

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Mike should go and develop Jade Empire 2

#131
Rykoth

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Pwnsaur wrote...

Chiramu wrote...

Rykoth wrote...

The problem isn't with Bioware.

The problem is with the ungrateful fans who always find something to whine about.

"We want this this and this."
- New game comes out with those requests -
"HOW DARE YOU"


Very true :)


Graciousness is warranted in the face of charity. In the circumstances of capitalism, being gracious for paying for a product that disappointed you is absurd. As an added note, I don't remember fans begging for a shorter game, less dialogue, less skills, recycled environments, no non-combat skills, more bugs, less NPC interaction and a higher price tag. Being completely intolerant of one side of an argument does not extinguish the validity of that argument.


This is the problem with you "disappointed people."

You state your disappointment as fact, not opinion. You think that because Bioware disappointed YOU that YOU have the right to demand something.

What about those of us who enjoyed the game. Forget for a moment that the game DOES have flaws (gasp... someone who loves the game can admit that) ....

You are not more entitled then anyone else. The OP is not more entitled then anyone else. The people demanding Mike Laidlaw step down are not more entitled then anyone else. The people who are "disappointed" with the game are acting as if they are the ones to listen to. Some are. Some aren't.

Just because the game disappointed -you- does not mean Bioware should bend over for -you-

You might not like the NPC interaction. There's plenty of people who did love it, and appreciated that its more quality over quantity (instead of the repetitive "I await your command" "Sooooo full of questions are we" you had to go through just to access a new conversation topic with DAO companions)  and thus wouldn't want to see that changed. What makes your opinion more valid then them? What makes the opinion of those who want a balance between both games less valid then yours?

This is the problem.

You don't have to bend over and kiss Bioware's game for being "disappointed" but you have no right acting like you are some self entitled brat just because the game was a disappointment for you.

(Note: "you" is not necessarily specific)

You speak of tolerance of the other side of the argument... well... THAT is why it is hard to be tolerant of "your side." Because with a few exceptions most of the people that are "disappointed" with the game act as if their opinion is the only one that matters.

Whereas there are plenty of us who do love the game and are willing to actually be I don't know... nice in our feedback of some of the short comings the game has?

#132
Chaos_1001

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My absolute last post in this topic...

You are attacking a specific person over a game based on your opinion of that game. This is shameful and stupid. Just because the internet gives you people ( jumping on this bandwagon ) a voice does not give you the right to do what you are doing here in this thread. A few of us have stepped up and went against this line of thought and because we defended x person we were labled fanbois. We were in fact defending not just the person here but going against this line of thought in general. This is not politics ... It is a damn game! Honestly actually really look into what you are doing here !

#133
Korusus

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There's no doubt that Dragon Age deserves a better lead designer, one who will stick more closely to the original mission of the series. Mike Laidlaw was brought in at the end of Origins development to turn it into a console port. Dragon Age II is his idea of what Dragon Age should be and fully intends to stick with it for Dragon Age 3, he's as much as admitted that in interviews. The lead designer brought in to consolize the game stayed on for the sequel, and lo and behold the sequel. Is anyone really surprised at the way it turned out?

He's happy with the combat. He's happy with the waves of enemies. He's happy with the dialogue wheel. And he had no problem with the recycled areas until they were bashed incessantly by reviewers and players, and the best defense they can come up with is that they didn't think it would be a big deal or that they thought they had done it "artfully".

I'm sorry, but all Mike has done is overseen the creation of the worst rated BioWare game (besides Sonic Chronicles) since Baldur's Gate, he's tarnished the BioWare brand. I certainly wouldn't fire him (I don't want anyone to be fired), but he does not deserve to be lead designer. Dragon Age deserves better.

You can blame EA's time frame all you want, but I doubt EA forced Laidlaw and the DA team to redesign the game from scratch. That was his decision.

Modifié par Korusus, 25 mars 2011 - 02:04 .


#134
dewayne31

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skyrend wrote...

YohkoOhno wrote...

I've seen nothing to suggest ML is doing a bad job.


Hi, have you played DA2?


i have and yea it has it problems. but i think it good. but that my opinion

#135
Rykoth

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Korusus, learn to read the interviews.

He explained the recycled areas as either - more quests/content or more unique areas. It's called resource time. He's basically said he's not proud of the fact so much was recycled. Move on.

#136
MrTijger

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Korusus wrote...

There's no doubt that Dragon Age deserves a better lead designer, one who will stick more closely to the original mission of the series. Mike Laidlaw was brought in at the end of Origins development to turn it into a console port. Dragon Age II is his idea of what Dragon Age should be, he's as much as admitted that in interviews. The lead designer brought in to consolize the game stayed on for the sequel, and lo and behold the sequel. Is anyone really surprised at the way it turned out?

He's happy with the combat. He's happy with the waves of enemies. He's happy with the dialogue wheel. And he had no problem with the recycled areas until they were bashed incessantly by reviewers and players, and the best defense they can come up with is that they didn't think it would be a big deal or that they thought they had done it "artfully".

I'm sorry, but all Mike has done is overseen the creation of the worst rated BioWare game (besides Sonic Chronicles) since Baldur's Gate, he's tarnished the BioWare brand. I certainly wouldn't fire him (I don't want anyone to be fired), but he does not deserve to be lead designer. Dragon Age deserves better.

You can blame EA's time frame all you want, but I doubt EA forced Laidlaw and the DA team to redesign the game from scratch. That was his decision.


Are you really this stupid? Honestly, do you think ANY company hands over a core IP to someone below VP level and then sits on their hands for 18 months and never checks in to see if things are going as planned? Really?

These ludicrous attacks are getting tiresome and shameful, you dont like the game, fine, but do everyone a favor and stop projecting your BS on something you do not own or have any say over. Come up with your own IP, game and world and then you can make the decisions.

#137
Johnsen1972

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If Mike isnt reponsible who is responsible? He should have asked for more time instead of cutting the game on almost everything. He is the one who is supposed to KNOW how to make games.Image IPB If not he shouldnt be lead designer at all.

Modifié par Johnsen1972, 25 mars 2011 - 02:09 .


#138
Korusus

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Rykoth wrote...

Korusus, learn to read the interviews.

He explained the recycled areas as either - more quests/content or more unique areas. It's called resource time. He's basically said he's not proud of the fact so much was recycled. Move on.


PR hogwash.  DA2 has less content than any other BioWare game in recent memory, especially Act 3.  Read the interview with the lead level designer, they didn't think it was a big deal.  Did you read the Laidlaw interviews?

"...the re-use of the levels is something we knew was a bit of a risk,
but we wanted to make sure there was more content rather than less, so
re-using some of the spaces and coming to them again was certainly one
we were careful about and tried to re-use as artfully as we could..."


Sounds pretty proud to me.


MrTijger wrote...

Are you really this stupid? Honestly, do
you think ANY company hands over a core IP to someone below VP level
and then sits on their hands for 18 months and never checks in to see if
things are going as planned? Really?

These ludicrous attacks are
getting tiresome and shameful, you dont like the game, fine, but do
everyone a favor and stop projecting your BS on something you do not own
or have any say over. Come up with your own IP, game and world and then
you can make the decisions.


Oh, so he didn't oversee the worst rated BioWare game (besides Sonic Chronicles) in more than a decade? 
I'm being completely honest here.  The thread is about Mike Laidlaw and
his decisions.  I've repeatedly said I think the game is a 7.  But the
question is whether Mike Laidlaw deserves to be lead designer on Dragon
Age.  My opinion is no.  Try and stay on topic, please and thank you[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

#139
shai-hulud-lama

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i haven't read this thread, but just the question makes me angry.... this ist just ridiculous...just because you didn't like the game you imply that the lead designer has to be replaced?
I don't think that the success or failure of a game can be the responsibilty of one single person...how many people worked on DA2.....80 or something?
As far as i know Mr. Laidlaw has a pretty impressive record working on good games.

#140
MrTijger

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Johnsen1972 wrote...

If Mike isnt reponsible who is responsible? He should have asked for more time instead of cutting the game on almost everything. He is the one who is supposed to KNOW how to make games.Image IPB If not he shouldnt be lead designer at all.


Thank goodness you're clearly VP material for Bioware, you're able to make such sweeping remarks and have such a grasp of the obvious that clearly you should be in charge of Bioware.

PS: The person in charge of  and responsible for DA 2 is not Mike Laidlaw but Mark Darrah. Maybe you might want to read the credits next time.

#141
UnstableMongoose

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petipas1414 wrote...

UnstableMongoose wrote...

accessd wrote...

If DA3 is coming out in 2012 then sadly I think DA:O is the only game in the series worth playing.

They just can't make a worthy follow up to a great game like DA:O in a year.

Best review of the game so far:
http://www.gamecriti...w#comment-38568

Now read his DA:O review:
http://www.gamecriti...-origins-review

He is spot on.

Mr. Mike Laidlaw should read these.


Sweeping generalizations plague that GC review. It's rushed, biased garbage. A completion time of 22 hours proves that he skipped basically everything about the game that was good in a mad rush to the finish. He's been waiting to write that super-negative review, sitting on tenterhooks. You can't exactly ascribe integrity to someone who posts three articles blasting the game before he even bothers to put out a half-page review. It resonates with popular opinion about several concepts, but the number of reasonable people that would give it a score that low is negligible. There's plenty of intelligent discussion of its flaws without having to fall back on trash like GC.


maybe you'd prefer destructoid or gamespot?


Nope, I prefer to not have people form my opinions for me. I'll look at Metacritic occasionally, as it's a good bellweather (if not perfect). I'm just sick of the logical fallacy of people thinking that review is somehow better-written than any article that gave DA2 a higher score than it deserved just because it gave it a lower score than it deserved. It's not like it took any balls to do it. GC spends most of their time panning stuff anyway.

#142
MrTijger

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Korusus wrote...

Oh, so he didn't oversee the worst rated BioWare game (besides Sonic Chronicles) in more than a decade? 
I'm being completely honest here.  The thread is about Mike Laidlaw and
his decisions.  I've repeatedly said I think the game is a 7.  But the
question is whether Mike Laidlaw deserves to be lead designer on Dragon
Age.  My opinion is no.  Try and stay on topic, please and thank you../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png


No, he didnt. Mark Darrah did. You have no clue what Mike Laidlaw decided and what not, he never states anything of that nature which makes sense, he's not even the project lead after all.

As for the remark about opinions I defer to Varric's take on such matters.

Modifié par MrTijger, 25 mars 2011 - 02:23 .


#143
Ronin2006

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Chaos_1001 wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Ronin2006 wrote...

Discuss.

Edit:  To those of you saying this is a hate thread or personal attack.


But it's a personal attack.

You have written one of the most self-entitled, rude and immature thread I've ever read. I'm ashamed of that community. I suppose that the only thing you have studied in economy is the way "not" to make money. I hope that the same thing happens to you some day: some no-one that writes on a popular board that he hopes you'll be fired just to have some attention.

You are talking of the carreer and the life of a person and you should respect it no matter your like/dislike of DA2, a thing that no one will be interested in since you payed the game nonetheless (since you studied a lot of economy and devoted you whole life to it, it's strange that you have forgotten that you have allready voted with your wallet).


Absolutly this ^


Perhaps you need to have a look at the first post again.  There's a little part on the English language that I've added that demonstrates how this is not in any way, shape or form a "personal" attack.  If you cannot grasp this concept in the language you are typing in, then perhaps you should refrain from this forum until you have gained a greater command of that said language.

You can criticise my understanding of economics all you want, but I can guarantee you that one way for a business "not" to make money (as you put it) is to alienate it's consumers and make a significant number of them unhappy.  Whether you like it or not, this clear divide in the community shows that a large percentage of the fanbase are unhappy with this game.  You may love it, and that's your right, just like it's everyone else's right to form their own opinion, and a lot of them are exercising this right and expressing dissatisfaction with the game.

You "hope" that ... happens to me?  Well, I can say likewise or worse.  But it's not really relevant here.

Yes, I am talking about the career and life of a person, but consider this.  If due to Mike Laidlaw's creative vision and management style, Bioware is unable to retain a healthy profit in the future, it won't just be Mike Laidlaw's job lost, it will be hundreds.  If I had to choose between having one person lose their job, and hundreds, I know which one I'd choose.

PS I haven't devoted my whole life to economics and while you consider that I have "voted" with my wallet by buying the game, consider this.  There will be many more opportunities to "vote" again in the future, and I will vote with keeping my money in my pocket, unless of course something drastic changes in Bioware and their design philosophy.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 25 mars 2011 - 02:56 .


#144
Cutlasskiwi

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Sure, DA2 had some problems but so did DAO. No game is ever perfect.

And since I have no idea who's made what decisions when it comes to both DA games it's hard to comment on it. But it looks like Mike is doing a great job, as well as the rest of BioWare (I really liked DA2). Not every decision or change is going to be a success but some are.

#145
JosephShrike

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Just because you preface something with "This isn't a personal attack" doesn't make it not a personal attack. I'd be like me saying "This isn't a personal attack, OP, but you're an idiot.". Still kind of one :P

#146
Ronin2006

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JosephShrike wrote...

Just because you preface something with "This isn't a personal attack" doesn't make it not a personal attack. I'd be like me saying "This isn't a personal attack, OP, but you're an idiot.". Still kind of one :P


Read my edited edited first post and see how this isn't a personal attack.  People like you need to gain a better understanding of the English language and what a personal attack actually entails.

#147
errant_knight

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Since this doesn't seem to be going away, I'm going to repeat what I said on the same topic in another thread. This has all the earmarks of a lynch mob, and that's never a good thing. Let it go. Put down the pitch forks and torches. Put down the tar and feathers. This isn't helping at all.

#148
MrTijger

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Ronin2006 wrote...

JosephShrike wrote...

Just because you preface something with "This isn't a personal attack" doesn't make it not a personal attack. I'd be like me saying "This isn't a personal attack, OP, but you're an idiot.". Still kind of one :P


Read my edited edited first post and see how this isn't a personal attack.  People like you need to gain a better understanding of the English language and what a personal attack actually entails.


You make a person responsible for all that ails DA 2 (in your opinion) whom happens to not even be the project leader. Perhaps you are the one who needs better understanding of some matters?

#149
wicked_being

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I don't think he did a bad job, it was just lacking. But then again, we would never know what happened during production. Just think whatever you want, there's nothing we can do anyway.

#150
Obadiah

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It's an RPG for the button smasher crowd. It might work - it certainly looks like we bought it.