111 réponses à ce sujet

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Look at it from his perspective. Your country has been occupied for years, and some stupid naive king that thinks war is just a game wants help from their previous enemies. And he dont really seem to care about the blight as much about winning fame.

Then when the battle starts the tower of ishal flame goes unlit... time passes.... still unlit. All HE knows is that the grey wardens isnt igniting it! Then he realises its to LATE and the king is dead, so what can he do but do a tactical retreat?

The death of the king ofcourse bids to question if that wasnt abit convienient. But he HAS to be strong and maintain rulership to prevent a civil conflict.

Also Arl eamon says Loghain is a honorable man. So unless he is possessed by a demon (Which i thought was the case first) he really isnt acting THAT out of line. Ofcourse you get grumpy when the fail wardens dont signal him in time and the king dies with him to be blamed for it.

Am i giving him to much credit? Is he just an oppurtunist bastard or the tragic hero that tries holding his country together?

[EricHVela]

The road to ruin is paved with good intentions.

[Tankenminnet]

He sure is, and so is most people!

[RazorrX]

Loghain is doing ABSOLUTELY what he thinks is right.



Problem is . . .







He is VERY VERY VERY Wrong.

[Creston918]

I'm sure Ted Bundy thought he was doing what was right too...



It wasn't Loghain's task to decide whether the king deserved to live or die. It was his job to execute the (fairly crappy) battle plan. And what part of poisoning Art Eamon falls under the "Well, I'm just doing what's right!"



He's a traitor and is going to die. I'm going to take great pleasure in gutting him like a fish. If Loghain had done what he was supposed to, Duncan would not have died, and I wouldn't have had to listen to Alistair moaning about it on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and... on.

[Vilegrim]

Yes, and I am doing what I think is right by introducing him to Mr Maul to the head.

[LeandraNyx]

Perhaps he thought he was doing what was right when he left the battlefield. But at the point when he was poisoning Arl Eamon, torturing the children of other nobles, selling the elves into slavery, and leading his own daughter to believe her life was in danger because of him....? What may have started as right in his own mind became something else entirely.

[Forumtroll]

Duncan based on the novel and being close to his Calling may have been taken prisoner to wait for the transformation.

[Taleroth]

It's partially a question of "do the ends justify the means?"



Too bad it's also accompanied with "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."



He's confident that what he is doing is right. He's confident that it isn't a true Blight. These are both founded in ignorance.

[Red Viking]

I was under the impression that yes,Loghain was doing what he thought was right. I called him out on leaving his King and the Grey Wardens to die, which was my main problem with him during the Landsmeet. To my surprise, he shot right back that his responsibility was to save the lives of his men and that he had tried to convince a King who wanted a place in the storybooks not to go through with something he thought was a very bad idea.

That's actually a very convincing and reasonable argument.

Still, just because you do something you think is right doesn't mean it's the right choice. Ultimately, Loghain is blinded by the fact that he thinks his way is the right way.

Modifié par Red Viking, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:01 .

[Forumtroll]

Loghain has always been xenophobic. He's not pulling out any new tricks by doing something infinitely stupid be killing Duncan. Duncan is from Orlais, so where his Commanders before him. In his mind Duncan is leading an assault to reclaim Feralden for Orlais. Anyone even remotely friendly with his associates is also part of the plot to retake Feralden for Orlais.

Think of him a member of the right wing fringe who think all Muslims are evil.

Modifié par Forumtroll, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:02 .

[RazorrX]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Look at it from his perspective. Your country has been occupied for years, and some stupid naive king that thinks war is just a game wants help from their previous enemies. And he dont really seem to care about the blight as much about winning fame.

Ummm nope.  Loghains problem is that Calain asked for aid against the blight.  Aid from Orlais.  Loghain denies there is a Blight.  In his mind there can NEVER be a Blight.

Then when the battle starts the tower of ishal flame goes unlit... time passes.... still unlit. All HE knows is that the grey wardens isnt igniting it! Then he realises its to LATE and the king is dead, so what can he do but do a tactical retreat?

The Tower signal IS up when he looks up.  He withdraws because that was his plan from the beginning.

The death of the king ofcourse bids to question if that wasnt abit convienient. But he HAS to be strong and maintain rulership to prevent a civil conflict.

The death of the King and the Grey Wardens (Who keep sprouting on about the Blight) was the WHOLE plan.

Also Arl eamon says Loghain is a honorable man. So unless he is possessed by a demon (Which i thought was the case first) he really isnt acting THAT out of line. Ofcourse you get grumpy when the fail wardens dont signal him in time and the king dies with him to be blamed for it.

He is an honorable man, but he is Paranoid about Orlais, Obsessed about Orlais, and most importantly of ALL - There can NEVER be a Blight because if there was one, then the Witch of the Wilds told Maric the truth!

IF she told him the truth, then EVERYTHING she told him was true.  And she told him that Loghain would betray him again and again, each time worse than the last.

SO IF there is a Blight - Loghain is a traitor.  See how he self Fulfills the prophecy by trying to deny it?

Am i giving him to much credit? Is he just an oppurtunist bastard or the tragic hero that tries holding his country together?

Too Much Credit on one side, but he is (IN his mind) trying to do what is right.  The problem is what HE Thinks is happening is an Invasion by Orlais with some pesky darkspawn uprising that is diverting everyone from the big picture.

Remember - Calain ASKED for help from Orlais.  Loghain had them TURNED away at the Border because they CAME From Orlais.

Calian ASKED Loghain if they needed reinforcements - Loghain said "No."

[hexaligned]

Of course he is, His major failing is not taking the Blight seriously, but then no one does at that point in the story, aside from the wardens. Even Calin says he doesn't think it's a real blight. I do believe he sacrificed Calin however..which actually might have been good for the country in other times. You find out later the real power on the throne is Loghains daughter, Calin is more of a figure head. One who is making some very foolish and dangerous descions (as Loghain sees it) Such as letting Orliasan troops back into the country. Loghain would rather see everything burn (including his soul) than allow his country become enslaved again.

[Flamin Jesus]

If he thought the signal was coming too late, he could always have attacked without the signal, the signal was there specifically to tell him when the time was right, because he had no way of knowing otherwise. That's the entire point of the signal, because he can't see how the king's forces are doing.

[Gill Kaiser]

Loghain's problem is that he assumes that a) the darkspawn incursion is not a Blight, and that the Grey Wardens and Orlais are involved in some conspiracy to retake Ferelden. The rest of his war crimes are carried out in pursuit of what he thinks is best for Ferelden, but are in actuality responses to threats that don't really exist, and dramatically decrease the country's ability to fight the true threat, the Blight. Loghain's a former hero who's gone through Anti-hero, to villain, then Anti-villain, then possibly back to hero again.

I also think that Howe was responsible for a lot of the crimes attributed to Loghain. We know that Loghain's not in it for himself, whereas Howe is a total parasite.

[Guurzak]

Hitler, Mao, and Stalin thought what they were doing was right. The Spanish Inquisitors thought what they were doing was right. When you start seeing other people as nothing more than resources or obstacles for your plans for the greater good, the results are liable to be monstrous no matter how pure your motives.

[RazorrX]

Red Viking wrote...

I was under the impression that yes,Loghain was doing what he thought was right. I called him out on leaving his King and the Grey Wardens to die, which was my main problem with him during the Landsmeet. To my surprise, he shot right back that his responsibility was to save the lives of his men and that he had tried to convince a King who wanted a place in the storybooks not to go through with something he thought was a very bad idea.

That's actually a very convincing and reasonable argument.

Still, just because you do something you think is right doesn't mean it's the right choice. Ultimately, Loghain is blinded by the fact that he thinks his way is the right way.

HEHEHE That was an outlight Lie. 

The battle plan was Loghain's.  Calain even comments about it.  Calain asked if they needed to wait for reinforcements and Loghain told him No.  The tower, etc. was all Loghains plan.  The plan was to have the darkspawn remove Calain and the Grey Wardens so that he (Loghain) could once again Save Ferelden from the Orlesian Invasion.

[RazorrX]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Loghain's problem is that he assumes that a) the darkspawn incursion is not a Blight, and that the Grey Wardens and Orlais are involved in some conspiracy to retake Ferelden. The rest of his war crimes are carried out in pursuit of what he thinks is best for Ferelden, but are in actuality responses to threats that don't really exist, and dramatically decrease the country's ability to fight the true threat, the Blight. Loghain's a former hero who's gone through Anti-hero, to villain, then Anti-villain, then possibly back to hero again.
I also think that Howe was responsible for a lot of the crimes attributed to Loghain. We know that Loghain's not in it for himself, whereas Howe is a total parasite.

You know what is odd about that?  Howe sided WITH Orlais during the previous Occupation - Yet he is Loghains co-conspirator.  Odd how Log would trust Howe after that.

[Riot Inducer]

Loghain intended to off the king long before the battle started, if you looked into their interactions at all it was pretty obvious Loghain was getting fed up with the king. Then take into account Loghain's mounting paranoia and xenophobia and it all falls into place. At whatever point Loghain hatched his plan to betray the king he decided in his mind no one else was fit to lead Ferelden not even his own daughter, and everything else he did sprung up from that line of thought; poison Arl Eamon to silence what would be his most vocal opposition to him taking command of Ferelden, making pacts with Howe, so he would have an unrelenting and brutal enforcer to force his will on the nation.



Yes Loghain thought was hew as doing was right, would he have done it if he didn't think he was doing good?



Unfortunately he was blinded by his own paranoia and ended up fracturing Ferelden horribly when it needed to unite the most.

[Malkut]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Then when the battle starts the tower of ishal flame goes unlit... time passes.... still unlit. All HE knows is that the grey wardens isnt igniting it!

This is not what is happening.

My impression was that his entire grevance was motivated by his hatred of Orlais. Cailan was inviting Orlasian knights into the kingdom to help fight the Darkspawn, and Logain was concerned that they would reoccupy Ferelden.  Because of that, he's decided to consolidate all power to himself.

He starts by sending Howe to eliminate Teryn Cousland, who is the only other man in Ferelden with the title of Teryn, making him a competitor for the regancy, and who also is loyal to Cailan.  Soon afterwards, he removes Arl Eamon, but this plan obviously goes wrong through unforeseen circumstances.

At the war council at Ostagar, he wants to send his men to the tower.  Presumably, he would order them never to light the beacon, thus covering his betrayal better.  The king insists that Grey Wardens are sent with them, which he unwillingly relents to.  I think that's the moment when he realized that the Grey Wardens were going to have to go, as well.  He never trusted them, nor did he believe the tales about them, so he had no problem with placing the blame for the disaster on their shoulders.

He ultimately believed that he would unite the kingdom under his command, defeat the darkspawn without outside help, and secure Feredlenian independance from Orlais.  He misread the political situation and underestimated the threat of the Blight, which leads to a civil war, which preoccupies him and prevents him from countering the last two Grey Wardens as they pick apart his plan, one thread at a time.

Modifié par Malkut, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:23 .

[Gill Kaiser]

I'm really interested to see what you can talk to Loghain about if he joins your party after the Landsmeet, but I just can't bring myself to take him over Alistair.

Maybe in my future 'renegade' playthrough.

[hexaligned]

He's a much more intresting (and better game mechanic wise) character than Alistair imo. I just wish you could hunt Alistair down afterwards, I don't feel the game is complete without the option to gut him.

[Noone of Importance]

it gets worse when you start to think about Loghain logic



Grey wardens filled Cailens head with stories of blight and darkspawn and glorius battles



Cailen falls for the stories and goes rushing off to face the blight and invite orlesians etc



Grey wardens made cailen a bad king who had to be eliminated for the good of ferelden



Ergo, Grey Wardens murdered the king because if they had shut up and not bothered Cailen he would never have become a threat to Ferelden and Loghain could have served him loyally,



but thats what happens when you cant admit you got it wrong or have gone to far and start to Justify it all

[RunCDFirst]

Oddly enough, Loghain also views it as a game. When questioned about his decisions, he confesses to making some 'tactical errors'.



But, I suppose that's what politics do to a person.