As people have already said Loghain did what he did out of ignorance of the blight & hatred for Orlais.
Also as some people have already pointed out Loghain set his plans in motion way before the battle of Ostagar.
1) Howe attacking the Cousland's. Remember Calain said that he would take his army to fight Howe after finishing the darkspawn and this would have been expected by anyone as the Cousland's were very loyal allies of the King. The only way this attack makes sense is if Howe had backing from Loghain & knew the King would not be in a position to do so.
2) Uldred also had enough confidence in his backing from Loghain to lead a revolt at the Tower straight after Ostagar. Now unless they formalised their alliance over a quick evening's dinner, it's far more likely that he was already in Loghain's pocket prior to the battle.
3) The Arl's poisoning. Considering the Arl was already poisoned before the battle of Ostagar by Jowan on Loghain's behalf is another factor.
Isnt Loghain just doing what he think is right?
Débuté par
SomeoneStoleMyName
, nov. 17 2009 08:50
Retour en haut
#27
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 09:40
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
Loghain's logic is perfectly sound. Anyone with a decent political and prudent mind would have done something equivalent, considering the lack of knowledge that he had.
Grey WArdens say it's a blight because they can feel it, but that's no proof. Cailan says it's a blight because he WANTS it to be so, because he thinks it's cool. Loghain, probably unnerved by Cailan's stupidity, decided that there was not enough evidence that there was a blight. Indeed, the Archdemon did not show himself.
AS for calling foreign aid. That is a very sensitive issue in politics. No one calls for foreign aids without thinking a million times about it. Especially when it comes from an enemy. When you call a foreign army, you have to make sure they will not interfere in your sovereignity. You must also make sure that they leave after the event. Add the fact that it is not certain there was a blight, then how can you call those reinforcenments off?
There was no garantuee that the Orlesians would abide by any of this. So obviously, Loghain would reject their "aide".
Grey WArdens say it's a blight because they can feel it, but that's no proof. Cailan says it's a blight because he WANTS it to be so, because he thinks it's cool. Loghain, probably unnerved by Cailan's stupidity, decided that there was not enough evidence that there was a blight. Indeed, the Archdemon did not show himself.
AS for calling foreign aid. That is a very sensitive issue in politics. No one calls for foreign aids without thinking a million times about it. Especially when it comes from an enemy. When you call a foreign army, you have to make sure they will not interfere in your sovereignity. You must also make sure that they leave after the event. Add the fact that it is not certain there was a blight, then how can you call those reinforcenments off?
There was no garantuee that the Orlesians would abide by any of this. So obviously, Loghain would reject their "aide".
#28
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 09:48
Kozuka78
-
- Members
- 63 messages
History is always written by the victors, and in this story, loghain is definately not the victor.
Should he of been however? Yes, probably.
Lets put the orlesian thing into perspective. Fereldan has been occupied for over 80 years by a foreign force. Many of its current inhabitants remember this time vividly, many of them fought to end it.
Cailan requesting the aid of orlais, is like the french requested german forces to come and help defend paris only 30 years after the end of WW2. Its a ridiculous proposition.
The king is clearly not fit to lead, this is demonstrated at the start of the game. He has no regard for the lives of the people he leads, he is obsessed with creating his own legend. A thoroughly detestable character right from the out set. Not to mention we learn later on that really it was the queen anora and loghain that ran the kingdom anyway, the king is just a figurehead. A misguided, slightly dense and probably moronic figure head.
Dont tell me you actually thought the king was a good character in all of this?
Loghain knew he had to removed for the safety of fereldan. Yes, loghain kills the tyrn of highever and attempts to kill the arl of redcliffe. All necessary in a revolution. The tyrn and the arl are his two biggest rivals for power.
I never got the impression that loghain hated grey wardens. He asks valid questions at the start, and uses them as a convieniant scape goat to explain away the kings death. He sees them as something he can use.
He also seems to regret having to hire an assassin to kill the player character and ailistair. He does it because he considers it neccesary, but its against everything he would normally stand for.
The mage tower incident cant be blamed on loghain either really. He was searching for allies and found some. The blood mage/abomination problem was caused by years of oppresion from the chantry that forced a significant number of mages to feel like their backs where against the wall.
Infact his plan is perfect for all but two flaws;
A. He doesnt realise that a grey warden is physically neccesarry to kill the archdemon (and who can blame him, even the player didn't know why it was neccesary for most of the game)
B. The player is opposed to his actions. Historically, its very likely that loghain would of been successful. Very rarely does one person have as much mary-sue power as your character does.
Overall, I consider loghain to be an exceptional character, much deeper than most and greatly misunderstood by the majority of players taking things at face value.
The story is set up so that the player is directly opposed to loghain. However, if you were a nuetral party that got to choose a side...Im not convinced I would be supporting the player.
Should he of been however? Yes, probably.
Lets put the orlesian thing into perspective. Fereldan has been occupied for over 80 years by a foreign force. Many of its current inhabitants remember this time vividly, many of them fought to end it.
Cailan requesting the aid of orlais, is like the french requested german forces to come and help defend paris only 30 years after the end of WW2. Its a ridiculous proposition.
The king is clearly not fit to lead, this is demonstrated at the start of the game. He has no regard for the lives of the people he leads, he is obsessed with creating his own legend. A thoroughly detestable character right from the out set. Not to mention we learn later on that really it was the queen anora and loghain that ran the kingdom anyway, the king is just a figurehead. A misguided, slightly dense and probably moronic figure head.
Dont tell me you actually thought the king was a good character in all of this?
Loghain knew he had to removed for the safety of fereldan. Yes, loghain kills the tyrn of highever and attempts to kill the arl of redcliffe. All necessary in a revolution. The tyrn and the arl are his two biggest rivals for power.
I never got the impression that loghain hated grey wardens. He asks valid questions at the start, and uses them as a convieniant scape goat to explain away the kings death. He sees them as something he can use.
He also seems to regret having to hire an assassin to kill the player character and ailistair. He does it because he considers it neccesary, but its against everything he would normally stand for.
The mage tower incident cant be blamed on loghain either really. He was searching for allies and found some. The blood mage/abomination problem was caused by years of oppresion from the chantry that forced a significant number of mages to feel like their backs where against the wall.
Infact his plan is perfect for all but two flaws;
A. He doesnt realise that a grey warden is physically neccesarry to kill the archdemon (and who can blame him, even the player didn't know why it was neccesary for most of the game)
B. The player is opposed to his actions. Historically, its very likely that loghain would of been successful. Very rarely does one person have as much mary-sue power as your character does.
Overall, I consider loghain to be an exceptional character, much deeper than most and greatly misunderstood by the majority of players taking things at face value.
The story is set up so that the player is directly opposed to loghain. However, if you were a nuetral party that got to choose a side...Im not convinced I would be supporting the player.
Modifié par Kozuka78, 17 novembre 2009 - 10:00 .
#29
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 09:56
BluesMan1956
-
- Members
- 724 messages
I don't know if he views it as a game or acceptable politics. It certainly doesn't seem much worse than treacherous Dwarven politics.RunCDFirst wrote...
Oddly enough, Loghain also views it as a game. When questioned about his decisions, he confesses to making some 'tactical errors'.
But, I suppose that's what politics do to a person.
If the Grey Wardens truly believe that they should do whatever it takes to get the job done, then it seems that Loghain has adopted this amoral philosophy.
In a situation where the state trumps the individual, this is perfectly acceptable.
In a free society where the rights of the individual are sacrosanct, then Loghain's actions are tyranny
So,
Individual Rule = Freedom
State rule=Tyranny
#30
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:00
The Angry One
-
- Members
- 22 246 messages
Oh please his plan was a disaster.
- He didn't believe the Grey Wardens because he was an arrogant sod. Archdemon or no, the darkspawn were there, and they were an army, and they freaking reaked havoc on souther Ferelden while he hijacked every army between Ostagar and Denerim to fight his petty war.
- He managed to alienate almost the entire Bannorn with his arrogant claiming of the regency instead of letting Anora rule while he pulled the strings.
- Having Eamon poisoned was incredibly stupid. Even if he had died, there's a very good chance Teagan would become the new Arl and oppose Loghain in Eamon's name, and everyone would realise it was just a little too convenient that Eamon was murdered shortly after Cailan's death.
- Let's assume for a moment that Loghain was right and there was no true Blight. He has a civil war against the Bannorn. Now, what's to stop them from seeking help from Orlais? Orlais might jump at the chance to a) kick Loghain's ass and
opportunistically claim Ferelden lands for itself.
What's Loghain going to do then? Seek help from Tevinter? Hey look! Now Orlais and Tevinter get to carve up Ferelden for themselves, the very thing Loghain doesn't want to happen. Oops.
And I'm not even going into becoming a slaver, his paranoid assassinations and arrests and all the other things that make Loghain into the insipid tin pot dictator he is.
- He didn't believe the Grey Wardens because he was an arrogant sod. Archdemon or no, the darkspawn were there, and they were an army, and they freaking reaked havoc on souther Ferelden while he hijacked every army between Ostagar and Denerim to fight his petty war.
- He managed to alienate almost the entire Bannorn with his arrogant claiming of the regency instead of letting Anora rule while he pulled the strings.
- Having Eamon poisoned was incredibly stupid. Even if he had died, there's a very good chance Teagan would become the new Arl and oppose Loghain in Eamon's name, and everyone would realise it was just a little too convenient that Eamon was murdered shortly after Cailan's death.
- Let's assume for a moment that Loghain was right and there was no true Blight. He has a civil war against the Bannorn. Now, what's to stop them from seeking help from Orlais? Orlais might jump at the chance to a) kick Loghain's ass and
opportunistically claim Ferelden lands for itself.What's Loghain going to do then? Seek help from Tevinter? Hey look! Now Orlais and Tevinter get to carve up Ferelden for themselves, the very thing Loghain doesn't want to happen. Oops.
And I'm not even going into becoming a slaver, his paranoid assassinations and arrests and all the other things that make Loghain into the insipid tin pot dictator he is.
#31
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:09
Nyaore
-
- Members
- 2 651 messages
You can't really defend someone by claiming that they were simply doing what they thought was right because of the subjectiveness of such a claim. Hitler thought he was doing right by the German people when he enacted all of his hateful policies and planned genocides. Does this mean we can excuse his actions simply because it was the right thing to do in his mind? (Note: I'm not making a comparison between Loghain and Hitler here, I'm just using Hitler to debunk that particular excuse that many people are giving for Loghain's actions. <-- Hitler was also simply just the first historical tyrant to pop into my head who thought he was doing right by his people in all honesty. I'd have prefered to use another example but since I'm at work my mind is drawing a blank.)
Really, I think Loghain lost it somewhere between the timeline of the books and game. For a reputed tactical genuis he sure was making dozens of infantile mistakes that would make most strategists gawk in horror. I think he let his hatred for Orlais and his rampant paranoia consume him until it was all that really mattered. He's a rather flawed and interesting character, and I do wish that we could have delved deeper into the source of his madness during the actual game to get a better picture of his overall character.
Really, I think Loghain lost it somewhere between the timeline of the books and game. For a reputed tactical genuis he sure was making dozens of infantile mistakes that would make most strategists gawk in horror. I think he let his hatred for Orlais and his rampant paranoia consume him until it was all that really mattered. He's a rather flawed and interesting character, and I do wish that we could have delved deeper into the source of his madness during the actual game to get a better picture of his overall character.
Modifié par Nyaore, 17 novembre 2009 - 10:12 .
#32
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:18
bcooper56
-
- Members
- 607 messages
Ya and Hitler was just doing what he think is righ in ww2t?
/thread
/thread
Modifié par bcooper56, 17 novembre 2009 - 10:19 .
#34
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:31
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
bcooper56 wrote...
Ya and Hitler was just doing what he think is righ in ww2t?
/thread
It's not about what someone thinks. It's rather HOW someone thinks.
Loghain's logic is sound. Hitler's logic is stupid. His ideology is based upon blind hatred. That's not the case for Loghain.
Loghain made calculated decisions, that turned out wrong because he didn't know everything. Hitler on the otherhand was acting on his hatred alone. He even said that details and calculations are not for him, he prefers doing what his impulse tells him. Hitler could have been a brilliant leader, if it wasn't for his terrible logic (or lack thereof).
A better exampl that is similar to Loghain is Napoleon. He made mistakes. But his logic was sound.
Exact same thing with Saren. He didn't help the Reapers because he wanted organics to die. He helped them because he though that the rEapers would spare them. He was wrong, as far as we know, in terms of fact. But his train of logic wasn't false. It's just that he bases it on the premise that "The reapers are just machines".
#35
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:36
Brother-D
-
- Members
- 19 messages
He didnt live through the occupation neither did the king. The Story is pretty plain and simple in that respect. Its pretty black and white with no grey. Maybe You just sympathise with him and then want to argue that its morally right when it isnt.
#36
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:36
VanDraegon
-
- Members
- 956 messages
IMO, he made compromises that shouldnt have been made. Too many people died when he left the battle field. Had he joined the fight they could have prevailed(obviously the story for us as gamers would have suffered). He threw his honor away then. Add slavery on top of it? Dude, that is messed up. He made a good plea for his life but it was gratifying to take his head. I just wish there had been a cinematic for it. lol
#37
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:39
BluesMan1956
-
- Members
- 724 messages
Loghain did not trust the Grey wardens and he couldn't control the King. Both of them were an impediment to what he thought was best for Ferelden, so, he took the only logical course of action.VanDraegon wrote...
IMO, he made compromises that shouldnt have been made. Too many people died when he left the battle field. Had he joined the fight they could have prevailed(obviously the story for us as gamers would have suffered). He threw his honor away then. Add slavery on top of it? Dude, that is messed up. He made a good plea for his life but it was gratifying to take his head. I just wish there had been a cinematic for it. lol
#38
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:42
The Angry One
-
- Members
- 22 246 messages
If Loghain was truly smart, he would have joined the battle alongside the King, let the Grey Wardens kill themselves against the Archdemon and arrange for some Antivan Crows to make sure Cailan suffered a most unfortunate "accident" at the moment of victory (if he wasn't killed fighting the darkspawn anyway, he was on the front lines after all).
This way the darkspawn threat is neutralised (either there's no archdemon and the army is kicked back into it's hole, or there is and the wardens kill it), Loghain has the remaining wardens on side, the Bannorn's doubts are largely quashed as Loghain was fighting too and he can get to the business of making sure the Orleisians stay far away.
Instead he picks a jackass move that only his most ardent (and stupid) supporters believe and tears his nation apart.
This way the darkspawn threat is neutralised (either there's no archdemon and the army is kicked back into it's hole, or there is and the wardens kill it), Loghain has the remaining wardens on side, the Bannorn's doubts are largely quashed as Loghain was fighting too and he can get to the business of making sure the Orleisians stay far away.
Instead he picks a jackass move that only his most ardent (and stupid) supporters believe and tears his nation apart.
#39
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:43
VanDraegon
-
- Members
- 956 messages
BluesMan1956 wrote...
Loghain did not trust the Grey wardens and he couldn't control the King. Both of them were an impediment to what he thought was best for Ferelden, so, he took the only logical course of action.VanDraegon wrote...
IMO, he made compromises that shouldnt have been made. Too many people died when he left the battle field. Had he joined the fight they could have prevailed(obviously the story for us as gamers would have suffered). He threw his honor away then. Add slavery on top of it? Dude, that is messed up. He made a good plea for his life but it was gratifying to take his head. I just wish there had been a cinematic for it. lol
Logical perhaps in his mind, which at that point had become power mad and unbalanced.
#40
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:47
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
The Angry One wrote...
If Loghain was truly smart, he would have joined the battle alongside the King, let the Grey Wardens kill themselves against the Archdemon and arrange for some Antivan Crows to make sure Cailan suffered a most unfortunate "accident" at the moment of victory (if he wasn't killed fighting the darkspawn anyway, he was on the front lines after all).
This way the darkspawn threat is neutralised (either there's no archdemon and the army is kicked back into it's hole, or there is and the wardens kill it), Loghain has the remaining wardens on side, the Bannorn's doubts are largely quashed as Loghain was fighting too and he can get to the business of making sure the Orleisians stay far away.
Instead he picks a jackass move that only his most ardent (and stupid) supporters believe and tears his nation apart.
It was not certain that the battle could have been won. It's a very risky plan you are proposing. I am not saying it couldn't have worked. But it's too risky.
Sure, Loghain didn't do the right thing in terms of efficieny however. That doesn't make his logic and intentions wrong. Nor does it make it right to kill him in front of his daughter, just because of a whining **** (Alitsair).
#41
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:47
elemental150
-
- Members
- 103 messages
uhm....not that what Loghain did is real and/or nearly as bad but....Hitler did what he thought was right too.....Doing something evil to achieve something you think is good and worth while, doesn't make your goal noble or good.....the end rarely if ever truly justify the means
If you want to look at if from another angle...Loghain's sin was pride, he was so proud of what he had done for his country in the past and his status as a hero that he believed he knew the only way to over come the difficulties that his country faced in all aspects, this lead him to many blind actions....blind to the hopes of other people in the kingdom, blind to the suffering he was causing others, and blind to the beliefs that the country he so loved was based on....
If you lose all of your beliefs in trying to achieve something then they meant nothing to begin with nor is the goal that those beliefs set into motion actually worth achieving
If you want to look at if from another angle...Loghain's sin was pride, he was so proud of what he had done for his country in the past and his status as a hero that he believed he knew the only way to over come the difficulties that his country faced in all aspects, this lead him to many blind actions....blind to the hopes of other people in the kingdom, blind to the suffering he was causing others, and blind to the beliefs that the country he so loved was based on....
If you lose all of your beliefs in trying to achieve something then they meant nothing to begin with nor is the goal that those beliefs set into motion actually worth achieving
#42
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:51
BluesMan1956
-
- Members
- 724 messages
VanDraegon wrote...
BluesMan1956 wrote...
Loghain did not trust the Grey wardens and he couldn't control the King. Both of them were an impediment to what he thought was best for Ferelden, so, he took the only logical course of action.VanDraegon wrote...
IMO, he made compromises that shouldnt have been made. Too many people died when he left the battle field. Had he joined the fight they could have prevailed(obviously the story for us as gamers would have suffered). He threw his honor away then. Add slavery on top of it? Dude, that is messed up. He made a good plea for his life but it was gratifying to take his head. I just wish there had been a cinematic for it. lol
Logical perhaps in his mind, which at that point had become power mad and unbalanced.
I am not convinced that he was power-mad or unbalanced. If he once had any care for the People of Ferelden, he may have lost that and started seeing them as either helpful or hindering his cause, which of course, was just and right.
Also, I am not saying he wasn't a tyrant - because he was. But he had lost sight of why he was fighting in the first place - he must have lost site of the people he was supposed to protect. And that is when he turned into a tyrant
#43
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:52
The Angry One
-
- Members
- 22 246 messages
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It was not certain that the battle could have been won. It's a very risky plan you are proposing. I am not saying it couldn't have worked. But it's too risky.
Sure, Loghain didn't do the right thing in terms of efficieny however. That doesn't make his logic and intentions wrong. Nor does it make it right to kill him in front of his daughter, just because of a whining **** (Alitsair).
Nothing is without risk. I dispute the notion that the battle was a bad plan however, though even if it was bad then it's because Loghain purposefully made it so - as he was the one who drew it up.
I think it had a chance of working. Even without Loghain, Cailan's forces held their ground for a while.
At any rate it would be better than just pulling out and looking like a coward and traitor to any Bann with a brain.
#44
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:54
Cursek
-
- Members
- 115 messages
Putting is bluntly, he's a short sighted bitter ass racist, and he is right and the entire world, especially Orlais, is wrong.
#45
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 10:56
Forumtroll
-
- Members
- 323 messages
Actually he is blinded by hate. Hates Orlesians. Duncan is an Orlesian, Bregen and Geneive were Orlesians are commanded the Grey Wardens before the events of the game. They also put Maric in severe danger by taking him to the Deep Roads in the Calling. In his mind the Grey Wardens are gunning for the thrown and back by Orlais, especially since he was vaguely aware Alistair was part Orlesian and as well as maybe having an Orlesian elven mage. Read the Calling it answers questions about why Loghain hates everyone.
#46
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 11:01
KnightofPhoenix
-
- Members
- 21 527 messages
Forumtroll wrote...
Actually he is blinded by hate. Hates Orlesians. Duncan is an Orlesian, Bregen and Geneive were Orlesians are commanded the Grey Wardens before the events of the game. They also put Maric in severe danger by taking him to the Deep Roads in the Calling. In his mind the Grey Wardens are gunning for the thrown and back by Orlais, especially since he was vaguely aware Alistair was part Orlesian and as well as maybe having an Orlesian elven mage. Read the Calling it answers questions about why Loghain hates everyone.
That's not blind hate. His hate is perfectly understandable. And prudent.
How can anyone think that calling an Orlesian army back into Ferelden, after only a few years they were kicked out, is a good idea?
#47
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 11:01
Cursek
-
- Members
- 115 messages
Forumtroll wrote...
Actually he is blinded by hate. Hates Orlesians. Duncan is an Orlesian, Bregen and Geneive were Orlesians are commanded the Grey Wardens before the events of the game. They also put Maric in severe danger by taking him to the Deep Roads in the Calling. In his mind the Grey Wardens are gunning for the thrown and back by Orlais, especially since he was vaguely aware Alistair was part Orlesian and as well as maybe having an Orlesian elven mage. Read the Calling it answers questions about why Loghain hates everyone.
I have, and it just shows how much more of a hater he is.
The Blight doesn't really mind whether you're Fereldan or Orlesian, and everyone understood this except Loghains royally whiney ass.
Modifié par Cursek, 17 novembre 2009 - 11:03 .
#48
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 11:03
Forumtroll
-
- Members
- 323 messages
It would be extremely unpopular with the Banns except for Eamon who married an Orlesian, and Teagan who likes her.
#49
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 11:04
BluesMan1956
-
- Members
- 724 messages
Loghain did not believe that the Blight was that big of a threat.Cursek wrote...
Forumtroll wrote...
Actually he is blinded by hate. Hates Orlesians. Duncan is an Orlesian, Bregen and Geneive were Orlesians are commanded the Grey Wardens before the events of the game. They also put Maric in severe danger by taking him to the Deep Roads in the Calling. In his mind the Grey Wardens are gunning for the thrown and back by Orlais, especially since he was vaguely aware Alistair was part Orlesian and as well as maybe having an Orlesian elven mage. Read the Calling it answers questions about why Loghain hates everyone.
I have, and it just shows how much more of a hater he is.
The Blight doesn't really mind whether you're Fereldan or Orlesian, and everyone understood this except Loghains royally whiney ass.
#50
Posté 17 novembre 2009 - 11:07
Cursek
-
- Members
- 115 messages
Lol, the Bannorn agreed to have a stop to the Blight as much as anyone. And in The Calling they and everyone else was kept in the dark till Maric is no longer around and the Origins part of the game comes where the blight is already starting.
