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[Cursek]

BluesMan1956 wrote...

Cursek wrote...

Forumtroll wrote...

Actually he is blinded by hate. Hates Orlesians. Duncan is an Orlesian, Bregen and Geneive were Orlesians are commanded the Grey Wardens before the events of the game. They also put Maric in severe danger by taking him to the Deep Roads in the Calling. In his mind the Grey Wardens are gunning for the thrown and back by Orlais, especially since he was vaguely aware Alistair was part Orlesian and as well as maybe having an Orlesian elven mage. Read the Calling it answers questions about why Loghain hates everyone.

I have, and it just shows how much more of a hater he is.

The Blight doesn't really mind whether you're Fereldan or Orlesian, and everyone understood this except Loghains royally whiney ass.

Loghain did not believe that the Blight was that big of a threat.

Also an LOL desicion for a 'war hero'.

[ComTrav]

Loghain is a hero who lived a little too long, started becoming a little too proud, believed a little too much in his own legend, and started making some bad decisions as a result. (Sten says in the epilogue this is why no living qunari is ever declared ata'qun or whatever.) Anora, Ser Cautherine, and even Eamon himself mention their respect for him. If he would've died before the game started he'd be a nifty little codex entry, maybe a statue. Like a Napoleon or Benedict Arnold, he had his heroic moment, outlived it, and then became a villain.



Part of why he is a good villain is that he has mostly understandable reasons for doing what he did. I think he becomes a little more sympathetic in the end when he realizes some of the mistakes he made (and of course, his line about daughters never growing up.) And in his place, I might've made some of the same decisions, but that doesn't change the fact that 'I'm here and he's there'. (Even if he does hit like a truck during the duel, much harder then I expected from a sword-and-board warrior.)

[Gill Kaiser]

I kind of felt bad for Loghain during the Landsmeet duel, as my Mage completely annihilated him. I don't think he even got a hit in.

[RunCDFirst]

All this started because Loghain couldn't abide the thought of Orlesians coming to help Ferelden.

And yet, the Blight was quelled without Orlesian help by a united Ferelden.

Loghain's a bit of a paranoid fanatic that caused far greater death and suffering because of his bigotry. He thought he was right, but he's very clearly shown to be in the wrong. His plan to usurp the throne was doomed to fail from rebellion and civil war. Had he won, everyone would have lost.

ComTrav wrote...

Loghain is a hero who lived a little too long, started becoming a little too proud, believed a little too much in his own legend, and started making some bad decisions as a result. (Sten says in the epilogue this is why no living qunari is ever declared ata'qun or whatever.) Anora, Ser Cautherine, and even Eamon himself mention their respect for him. If he would've died before the game started he'd be a nifty little codex entry, maybe a statue. Like a Napoleon or Benedict Arnold, he had his heroic moment, outlived it, and then became a villain.

You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain?

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 17 novembre 2009 - 11:16 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

Bah, all this Loghain love is sickening.

No. This wasn't anything to do with saving his country. Sure, he told himself this during the day and used it to justify his actions to the nobles around.

His actions were his final revenge. He had been waiting for years. His bitterness towards Maric because Loghain was in love with Rowhan (sp). His anger at Maric for his elven dalliances. And finally, his chance to kill Calian. Calian, who was the symbol of what Maric got and Loghain didn't. And Calain, whose birth killed his mother (if I am remember correctly), the woman who Loghain always loved and could never have.

Loghain is a Lancelot without the moral rectitude to remove himself from the equation. His not a patriot, he is not a hero by the time the game starts. He is a small, bitter man, who finally sees his opportunity to get revenge on his dead 'friend' for having everything that Loghain wanted.

Some hero.

RazorrX wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Loghain's
problem is that he assumes that a) the darkspawn incursion is not a
Blight, and that the Grey Wardens and Orlais are involved in some
conspiracy to retake Ferelden. The rest of his war crimes are carried
out in pursuit of what he thinks is best for Ferelden, but are in
actuality responses to threats that don't really exist, and
dramatically decrease the country's ability to fight the true threat,
the Blight. Loghain's a former hero who's gone through Anti-hero, to
villain, then Anti-villain, then possibly back to hero again.
I also
think that Howe was responsible for a lot of the crimes attributed to
Loghain. We know that Loghain's not in it for himself, whereas Howe is
a total parasite.

You know what is odd about that?  Howe
sided WITH Orlais during the previous Occupation - Yet he is Loghains
co-conspirator.  Odd how Log would trust Howe after that.

Again, Orleis was just a straw-man. A way that Loghain was able to hide his cowardly strike.

Modifié par Rylor Tormtor, 17 novembre 2009 - 11:29 .

[ComTrav]

RunCDFirst wrote...

You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain?

Was trying to remember the exact quote, but yes, that's the gist of it.

IMO Branka is a similiar, though more extreme case. (When Oghren asks, "What happened to you?" She says, "I *am* your Paragon.")

[Cursek]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Bah, all this Loghain love is sickening.

No. This wasn't anything to do with saving his country. Sure, he told himself this during the day and used it to justify his actions to the nobles around.

His actions were his final revenge. He had been waiting for years. His bitterness towards Maric because Loghain was in love with Rowhan (sp). His anger at Maric for his elven dalliances. And finally, his chance to kill Calian. Calian, who was the symbol of what Maric got and Loghain didn't. And Calain, whose birth killed his mother (if I am remember correctly), the woman who Loghain always loved and could never have.

Loghain is a Lancelot without the moral rectitude to remove himself from the equation. His not a patriot, he is not a hero by the time the game starts. He is a small, bitter man, who finally sees his opportunity to get revenge on his dead 'friend' for having everything that Loghain wanted.

Some hero.

RazorrX wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Loghain's
problem is that he assumes that a) the darkspawn incursion is not a
Blight, and that the Grey Wardens and Orlais are involved in some
conspiracy to retake Ferelden. The rest of his war crimes are carried
out in pursuit of what he thinks is best for Ferelden, but are in
actuality responses to threats that don't really exist, and
dramatically decrease the country's ability to fight the true threat,
the Blight. Loghain's a former hero who's gone through Anti-hero, to
villain, then Anti-villain, then possibly back to hero again.
I also
think that Howe was responsible for a lot of the crimes attributed to
Loghain. We know that Loghain's not in it for himself, whereas Howe is
a total parasite.

You know what is odd about that?  Howe
sided WITH Orlais during the previous Occupation - Yet he is Loghains
co-conspirator.  Odd how Log would trust Howe after that.

Again, Orleis was just a straw-man. A way that Loghain was able to hide his cowardly strike.

Pretty much this.

[Cursek]

ComTrav wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain?

Was trying to remember the exact quote, but yes, that's the gist of it.

IMO Branka is a similiar, though more extreme case. (When Oghren asks, "What happened to you?" She says, "I *am* your Paragon.")

I felt so bad aboud being against her, but the other option (and what could happen with Shale) pretty much was more canon to my PC's morals =/.

[AtreiyaN7]

Sure, he did what he thought was right, but his idea of what was right ended up being twisted by his completely irrational hatred of Orlais.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 18 novembre 2009 - 09:10 .

[JamieCOTC]

RazorrX wrote...

Loghain is doing ABSOLUTELY what he thinks is right.

Problem is . . .



He is VERY VERY VERY Wrong.

I felt the same way.  It's save his country at any cost, which seems honorable, but "at any cost" could be xomething worse rthan the blight.  *spoiler* so when his daughter starts acting the same way, there was no way in hell I was putting her on the throne. *end spolier*

[Vaeliorin]

Loghain's problem is, and always has been, that he always does what he thinks is right, regardless of the cost to himself and others. He refuses to even consider that any version of right other than his own exists.



That's exactly what made him into the main villain in The Stolen Throne, and I've been waiting for a chance to gut him since I read it. Sadly, it was less satisfying than I expected.

[JamesX]

Sorry if this been said, I didn't read all 3 pages.



Loghain did what he believe is necessary. He knows what he did is not right. But he saw no alternatives than to remove the foolish king who is going to sell them all out to the Olasians over a false blight and near blind worship of the Wardens.

[Dark83]

Kozuka78 wrote...

Cailan requesting the aid of orlais, is like the french requested german forces to come and help defend paris only 30 years after the end of WW2. Its a ridiculous proposition.

WW2 ended in 1945. West Germany was a member of NATO in 1955 and a founding member of the EEC in 1958. In 1975 ("30 years after"), West Germany would in fact be obligated to defend Paris.

Loghain knew he had to removed for the safety of fereldan. Yes, loghain kills the tyrn of highever and attempts to kill the arl of redcliffe. All necessary in a revolution. The tyrn and the arl are his two biggest rivals for power.

So basically because he's utterly wrong, and completely mistaken, he performs a coup d’état to kill off his political rivals and king.

Or to put it another way, we have a general who doesn't believe in his king, there's a famous force that historically have been always correct about a world-destroying threat whom he also refuses to believe in. So you're saying it's perfectly reasonable to commit High Treason, arrange for the deaths of your leige and large portions of your nations military and some of your most powerful allies (because they're political rivals), purge every potential political rival you have, and commit numerous warcrimes in a grab for the throne.

Much like another poster said, he wanted the throne. He may have just been deluding himself, but his daughter demonstrably was willing to obey him, and had to loyalty of the other nobles - but he wanted to be king. He "made calculated decisions" about killing off his king, his own nation's military, and potential political rivals.

BluesMan1956 wrote...

Loghain did not trust the
Grey wardens and he couldn't control the King.  Both of them were an
impediment to what he thought was best for Ferelden, so, he took the
only logical course of action.

To reword this, he felt he was
right and they were wrong - so he got them all killed and siezed the
throne.

It is the actions one chooses to perform that determines a man's character.

The Angry One wrote...

I dispute the notion that the
battle was a bad plan however, though even if it was bad then it's
because Loghain purposefully made it so - as he was the one who drew it
up.

I very much agree. If the battle could not be won, it was because Loghain ensured it could not be won - it was his plan. More Grey Wardens were coming, as well as foreign reenforcements. He deliberately pushed ahead, and further - from the dialog regarding the plan, it was deliberate to "draw them into a trap". The plan would not have failed this spectacularly if he had not deliberately set it up to be so.

Rylor has it right. "Patriotism" is nothing more than self-justification - his motives are personal and selfish.
Much like after Bush's adminstration left and the truth emerged that they had been planning the invasion of Iraq long before "fighting terrorism" or "liberating Iraq" was said. The invasion may well have fought terrorism and liberated Iraq, but that was not the root motivation in spite of what they may publically claim. Loghain choose a corse of action and merely justified it through sheer arrogance.

"This is the right decision, because it is my decision. I choose this because it is the right choice."

[Mudzr]

Right or wrong I couldn't bring myself to kill hill after he says goodbye to his daughter.

Screw Alistair, I *MAJOR SPOILERS* befriended him and it was he who sacrificed his life.

So he looked good, the citizens forgave him, Morrigan didn't get her crazy demon baby and Alistair was still alive, if a drunken mess.

[Vicious]

Wow seriously guys.

Cailan was dead whether or not Loghain's army marched. The signal came far, far too late - When Loghain quits the field, The battle was already all but decided, and if his army was far enough that the Darkspawn did not engage them, there was NO WAY he could have saved Cailan or Duncan.

Whatever any NPC in the game says, it makes zero logical sense that he could have made a difference because as he withdraws, Cailan dies, Duncan dies, and the PC and Alistair get riddled with arrows.

He did not like Cailan but he did NOT want him to die. He says as much, and if you accuse him of wanting to kill Cailan in the Landsmeet, you always lose the vote.


All he would have done was lost his own army and likely his own life and thus Ferelden is screwed.

You could make a case for it if Loghain let the Darkspawn into the Tower, but he didn't. They tunneled from underground right into the tower.


So you see, as far as Loghain knew, they Grey Wardens lit the signal late ON PURPOSE. Because Cailan IDOLIZED them he would make an easy victim, particularly if they were making a power grab.  And that's the case he makes throughout the game.


Loghain is a fantastic character if you try to see past the surface and pay attention to events. Like when Zevran says Loghain hired him. Arl Howe actually hired him, and Loghain was obviously upset to having to consort with the likes of an assassin, finally turning his back shaking his head and telling Howe  'just get it done.' or Morrigan saying "the battle was lost, the other guy quit the field" without saying whether or not it would have made a difference.

Loghain makes mistakes but he is not a bad guy. He makes GOOD on his second chance if you give him one. It's just a shame Maric is dead and neither Cailan nor Alistair are anything like him.

Modifié par Vicious, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:02 .

[ReubenLiew]

Yes, yes he was doing what he thought was right.



Sadly he made the sad mistake all npcs make of your character. They neglect to take into account you are the PROTOGANIST and therefore cannot be defeated unless by dues ex machina.



And odds are the Protoganist will always win. He played the wrong hand, that one.



I personally thought he was a very well thought out character myself. But I do not question the fact that he was at that point become a bitter old man whose paranoia had taken over his better judgement, although once you disabuse him of his paranoia he comes a far more likable character. He might be a hero, and it was unlikely he could've saved the battle, but there was nothing to suggest he couldn't at least save his king and the Grey Wardens if he went into battle, even if it would be a loss he could at least save many lives by allowing them to escape. He however chose to quit the field instead and allowed a lot of good soldiers to die because he was far too bitter at that point. Plus if the king got his ass handed to him after all that I'm sure it would knock SOME iota of sense into his thick skull but then maybe Loghain just knew the poor dim boy better than I.



A shame the only way I could keep Alistair was to kill him, but the point stands.

[Vaeo]

Loghain was totally in the wrong. Calen was a great leader. Make no mistake, he was hoping to find a lot of glory alongside the Gray Wardens, but he would not risk nearly as much. Calen was the sort of man willing to forget ancient history, forgive former enemies, and cast aside his pride for the good of his nation: IE: requesting aid from the dudes who enslaved them to stop the blight for the greater good of all. They just don't make them like Calen anymore. His young exterior was just a disguise for his amazing leadership.

They even had a good plan, that would have arguably won them another battle. Yet in the middle of a blight Loghain risked everything, including throwing a nation into a civil war in the middle of a blight. : / Loghain struck me as more power hungry than anything else. His moves in this game all seemed pretty stupid as far as being a leader goes. But being a greedy power hungry selfish ******. . . He did that perfectly. : p

Calen was the best man to lead that country, hands down. A man of excellent character, and still let Loghain have his way with his plans, never afraid to utilize his supreme battlefield tactics. Unfortunately, being good on the battle field alone does not qualify one to lead a nation. Calen would have strove to unify all against the blight, where Loghain sought to utterly seclude Ferelden.Not wise on his behalf, on any accounts.

Modifié par Vaeo, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:15 .

[Taritu]

"You could make a case for it if Loghain let the Darkspawn into the
Tower, but he didn't. They tunneled from underground right into the
tower.

So you see, as far as Loghain knew, they Grey Wardens lit the signal late ON PURPOSE.
Because Cailan IDOLIZED them he would make an easy victim,
particularly if they were making a power grab.  And that's the case he
makes throughout the game. "

Huh?  Remember, every single gray warden in Ferelden except you and Alistair are with the King.  It makes no sense for the gray wardens to start a power grab by comitting mass suicide in order to off the king.  Since he was with them, if they wanted him dead, in the middle of the battle, they could just have chopped him down and said a Darkspawn did. 

Loghain is not that stupid.  Moreover, he poisoned Arl Eamon before the battle and Howe took out the Couslands (the only other Teyrn family in the country and thus almost as powerful as he is) before the battle.  He was already making his move.

There's an argument to be made that he doesn't want Cailan dead (mostly because he tries to talk him out of going with the Gray Wardens) but there's no way, assuming he isn't a moron, which he isn't, that he thinks the Gray Wardens want to kill Cailan by comitting mass suicide with him and he's very clearly intending a coup.

Now he could well think the Gray Wardens have made Cailan their puppet, but that's an entirely different thing.

Modifié par Taritu, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dark83 wrote...

Kozuka78 wrote...

Cailan requesting the aid of orlais, is like the french requested german forces to come and help defend paris only 30 years after the end of WW2. Its a ridiculous proposition.

WW2 ended in 1945. West Germany was a member of NATO in 1955 and a founding member of the EEC in 1958. In 1975 ("30 years after"), West Germany would in fact be obligated to defend Paris.

That's a very different situation that cannot be compared with the situation in Ferelden. NATO was headed by the USA and both France and West Germany were financed by the USA and its Marshall Plan. That means that both countries had the USA to ensure the alliance.
Second, at very first, the French and British were horrifed at the idea of having a re-militarised Germany. The USA brushed those fears aside a bit, for the sake of countering the USSR. But even today, Germany still cannot have a large army.

I do not see the Orlais and Ferlden having an actual treaty, or being part of a security organisation, that can effecitvely manage such an intervention. NATO is set up to ensure that military intervention can happen without loss of sovereignity os said country. NATO forces are obliged to respect each other's sovereignity and would evacuate their troops immediately after the crisis has abaited. There is no such garantuees with Orlais.
What's to stop the Orlesian army from re-conqering Ferelden? Especially since Ferelden had a king that is so eager to die and a disunified nobility. What's the garantuee that the Orlesians would leave Ferelden after the blight is over? What's the garantuee that they will not interfere in Ferelden's politics and autonomy?
And assume that there was not a blight (as it was not certain at very first, except for the Grey Wardens), how can you make a large army go back?

International security organisations are designed to avoid such problems. Ferelden and Orlais were not part of a security organisation that would ensure any of this. Not to mention that Orlais is an Empire and has a history of expansionism. And militarily speaking, is stronger than Ferelden.
 
It's like saying Carthage would have allowed Roman troops to come in and help them after the 2nd punic wars. 
It's like saying that Afghanistan would allow Russian troops back, only 30 years after the atrocious Russian invasion. Well too bad they are worried by another invasion now. 

And I see that most of the critics of Loghain always end up saying: "Loghain doesn't like Ferelden. Nor does he hate Orlais. He just likes himself".
That's interesting speculation. but nothing more than speculation. In my interpretation of the character, it seems obvious to me that he loves Ferelden and is not using it as an excuse.  
You can always hate him. But I think it's sad that many do not understand him. I think understanding (not necessarily liking) Loghain makes the story much more interesting. Like understanding Saren in Mass Effect. Hence why Loghain is my favorite character after Morrigan.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:22 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

Vicious wrote...

Wow seriously guys.

Cailan was dead whether or not Loghain's army marched. The signal came far, far too late - When Loghain quits the field, The battle was already all but decided, and if his army was far enough that the Darkspawn did not engage them, there was NO WAY he could have saved Cailan or Duncan.

Whatever any NPC in the game says, it makes zero logical sense that he could have made a difference because as he withdraws, Cailan dies, Duncan dies, and the PC and Alistair get riddled with arrows.

He did not like Cailan but he did NOT want him to die. He says as much, and if you accuse him of wanting to kill Cailan in the Landsmeet, you always lose the vote.

What? Are you high? Noone died TILL after Loghain retreated. Retreated from HIS PLAN. Which means he was planning to flee the ENTIRE time. He never intended to help Cailan, and he did, in fact, want him to die.

All he would have done was lost his own army and likely his own life and thus Ferelden is screwed.

You could make a case for it if Loghain let the Darkspawn into the Tower, but he didn't. They tunneled from underground right into the tower.


So you see, as far as Loghain knew, they Grey Wardens lit the signal late ON PURPOSE. Because Cailan IDOLIZED them he would make an easy victim, particularly if they were making a power grab.  And that's the case he makes throughout the game.

No, serisouly, Don't be so freaking dense. He didn't want the Grey Wardens to light the fire in the first place because he wanted to send his men, so he would be assured that the fire wouldn't be lit.

Loghain is a fantastic character if you try to see past the surface and pay attention to events. Like when Zevran says Loghain hired him. Arl Howe actually hired him, and Loghain was obviously upset to having to consort with the likes of an assassin, finally turning his back shaking his head and telling Howe  'just get it done.' or Morrigan saying "the battle was lost, the other guy quit the field" without saying whether or not it would have made a difference.

Loghain makes mistakes but he is not a bad guy. He makes GOOD on his second chance if you give him one. It's just a shame Maric is dead and neither Cailan nor Alistair are anything like him.

Loghain is a petty broken down old man. He fails his friend, Maric, but being directly responsible for Cailan's death.

[Maria Caliban]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Am i giving him to much credit? Is he just an oppurtunist bastard or the tragic hero that tries holding his country together?

You can have conversations about this when he's in your group, you know.

He's doing what he thinks is right, but he does betray the king.

[Vaeo]

Loghain is a strategist, but a poor leader. Calen was genuinely noble, open to his strategies, and yes, had a love of glory. The plan itself was a good plan, and Loghain did abandon the king. They held their ground somehow, didn't they? With the troops Loghain withdrew. Cough. And ooooh, sure. No way in hell they would have beat the charging darkspawn horde with those men and a good flank. : p



Loghain wanted the throne. He wanted to lead the country in a way he saw fit, and went to some pretty treacherous lengths. What Loghain did was a textbook example of politics. Bioware, IMHO made it pretty obvious he was scummy. As surviving power he merely took advantage of the unknowing populace, used his position of power to maintain control over the troops, spread lies that everyone would believe because 'he was the man'. He told them the battle was not winnable. Just like he told them a bunch of other BS. And most people bought it, as far as commoners go, especially in that era. Typical medieval cover up for 'luhlz, I betrayed the king and must nao take ze throne'.



He was manipulative, a liar, and used the troops he should have used to flank the darkspawn to probably fight a potentially tougher battle in the city after they pulled out and lost the advantage of a flank. : p All in all, the original plan was solid. But yeah, he wanted the throne. Regardless of his ambitions, he demonstrated some poor leadership. After all. . . Civil war in the middle of a blight? Haha. Calen, that guy was awesome. Unfortunately, he took the shaft for his strong leadership because his underling bailed.

[Hizuka]

Vaeliorin wrote...

Loghain's problem is, and always has been, that he always does what he thinks is right, regardless of the cost to himself and others. He refuses to even consider that any version of right other than his own exists.

That's exactly what made him into the main villain in The Stolen Throne, and I've been waiting for a chance to gut him since I read it. Sadly, it was less satisfying than I expected.

Um...I just finished reading the Stolen Throne about 10 minutes ago, and I distinctly recall Loghain doing everything in his power to free Ferelden and put Maric (the protagonist) on the throne.  The antagonists sure seemed to be Severan and Meghren, since they were doing their level best to kill Maric and the rebellion.  If anything, those two Orlesians were competing to be the main villain.

[HVLAD]

Perhaps he thinks he is doing the right think, but so did Stalin. I cannot agree that he decided not to charge just in the battle. He has planned that. It is the only expalnation for Howe´s doing. If Howe did not know that he would go unpunisched, he would never dare to attack Couslands. And only person who could assure him he would not be punisched, was Loghain.