111 réponses à ce sujet

[dannythefool]

I thought for a while that Loghain was just trying to help his country but constantly overshooting, but my remaining sympathy for him died when I played the elven alienage quests during the ending. I can forgive him for hiring an assassin, that's fine I'm an assassin too. I can accept that you become king by poisoning your rivals, wouldn't be the first time after all and I do this twice in any playthrough to put my chosen king on a throne. But you can uncover so many other things he does that don't relate to grabbing power or saving Ferelden at all, and those I don't forgive him. I'm not even sure he's believable as someone who wants the best for Ferelden in the end, the only way I could see that is if he also thought he himself was the best that could ever happen to Ferelden.

[BringwinD]

I enjoyed killing loghain every single minute of it. Enjoyed it so much i reloaded and did the duel over 20times, each time killing loghain.

[EgasKrad]

I think Loghain is a good man, if "good" is justified by purely intention. Too bad that my main PC treated Alistair as his best friend that I have to keep my roleplay in check.



I think everyone would agree with this. Loghain may be wrong, ignorant, can't see the whole truth but he is definitely not some selfish fool that was over ambitious, power looting that had no common sense. He did what he thought was the best to save the country, even if that means thousand's death, innocent blood, killing children, sacrificing the life of his king or sacrificing the life of himself, it is justified if the result would save more.



It is easy for everybody to bash him because, we are all told that the result of his action would NOT save more, which is metagaming to me. However if we take that away and look at things his way, you will understand why he did all that.



By purely making things up, tell me, if the story spoiled you that Duncan actually never died but he is the archdemon and the Grey Warden is the agent of the Blight, in the very beginning, wouldn't you look at Loghain differently?

[BringwinD]

I disliked his face anyway.

[Dark83]

EgasKrad wrote...

I think Loghain is a good man, if "good" is justified by purely intention. Too bad that my main PC treated Alistair as his best friend that I have to keep my roleplay in check.

I think everyone would agree with this. Loghain may be wrong, ignorant, can't see the whole truth but he is definitely not some selfish fool that was over ambitious, power looting that had no common sense. He did what he thought was the best to save the country, even if that means thousand's death, innocent blood, killing children, sacrificing the life of his king or sacrificing the life of himself, it is justified if the result would save more.

"The ends justify the means" is itself a statement of character.

Bottem line - he is not a good person. Regardless of his intentions or goals (just like how we don't judge Hitler, Stalin, or Ghandi only by their intentions but by their actions) he chose his actions. Being "Good" and moral isn't just a white hat you can take on and off. You can't be good only when it's convenient. Once that hat is off, it's off. Once you cross the line, you're gone. When you're willing to sacrifice a hundred lives for your cause, two hundred isn't that much more. Then three hundred - thousands - tens of thousands. When you're willing to betray your countrymen, your own soldiers, your family, your king, your allies - it doesn't matter why.

When it becomes acceptable to you to inflict pain and suffering on thousands of innocents, when their lives are of no concern to you - you are no longer "Good". (Def: morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious; well-behaved; kind, beneficent, or friendly, honorable or worthy.)

He is evil - the only question is if he was justified.

Modifié par Dark83, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:49 .

[Tielis]

I think most of the people in this thread did not befriend Loghain and talk to him, or talk to his daughter about him.

Misguided, yes, made some pretty hefty mistakes, yes. Evil? No. Is Sten evil because of what he did? Because Loghain pretty much wants to redeem himself just like Sten after you get to know him better.

And I believe that Howe really put the screws into Loghain's head. Even Anora says that he hasn't been himself for a long time. Me, I'm glad that I gave him the chance to come back to himself and then save the country that he loved.

Modifié par Tielis, 18 novembre 2009 - 05:12 .

[The Angry One]

Tielis wrote...

I think most of the people in this thread did not befriend Loghain and talk to him, or talk to his daughter about him.

To what end? Of course they're going to say he isn't that bad. For one thing they're as bad as each other even if they weren't father & daughter. Loghain himself is only ever going to paint his actions in the best light.
This is like saying "well nobody who criticises Stalin ever got to know him and hear his point of view!"

Misguided, yes, made some pretty hefty mistakes, yes. Evil? No. Is Sten evil because of what he did? Because Loghain pretty much wants to redeem himself just like Sten after you get to know him better.

Sten did one thing in a blind panic and spends the rest of his existance brooding on it.
Loghain went on a calculated campaign that involved high treason, regicide,
murder, misinformation, slavery and civil war among other things.

And I believe that Howe really put the screws into Loghain's head. Even Anora says that he hasn't been himself for a long time. Me, I'm glad that I gave him the chance to come back to himself and then save the country that he loved.

Howe is a snake. But he's also a flunkie, not some grand mastermind.
Loghain is not some easily led fool, unless Howe is really a blood mage doing voodoo on Loghain to bend him to his will.

Modifié par The Angry One, 18 novembre 2009 - 05:19 .

[Eolath]

Loghain is a tactical leader, the king (what was his name?) wasn't. If it was up to Cailan the blight might've spread a load faster. Especially since Loghain and Cailan were arguing for days at Ostagar.



However, Loghain still betrayed his king and left him for dead. I still sided with him over Alistair though. (Because, let's be honest - that lad doesn't even know what being a king means)

[Akka le Vil]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Look at it from his perspective. Your country has been occupied for years, and some stupid naive king that thinks war is just a game wants help from their previous enemies. And he dont really seem to care about the blight as much about winning fame.

Then when the battle starts the tower of ishal flame goes unlit... time passes.... still unlit. All HE knows is that the grey wardens isnt igniting it! Then he realises its to LATE and the king is dead, so what can he do but do a tactical retreat?

The death of the king ofcourse bids to question if that wasnt abit convienient. But he HAS to be strong and maintain rulership to prevent a civil conflict.

Also Arl eamon says Loghain is a honorable man. So unless he is possessed by a demon (Which i thought was the case first) he really isnt acting THAT out of line. Ofcourse you get grumpy when the fail wardens dont signal him in time and the king dies with him to be blamed for it.

Am i giving him to much credit? Is he just an oppurtunist bastard or the tragic hero that tries holding his country together?

The "I'm doing what's right" is nice and all, the only problem being it's not believable.

He planned to betray the king long in advance (Howe kills your family days before the battle, and he could only think he'll get away with this if Loghain was going to get rid of Cailan).
He poisoned opposition, tortured people, sold his own citizen in slavery, crushed rebellions against his tyranny and was involved in most crimes known to man.
It starts to be hard to plaid "I'm doing this to avoid Orlaisian being bad to our innocent people" by now.

Then don't forget he let half of the army defending the kingdom to be slaughtered by the darkspawn and started a civil war. Now, it becomes very, very hard to believe in his "I'm doing what's good for the country". If he really wanted to off Cailan, he could have done it through an "accident" without killing tens of thousands of soldiers with him. And he could have waited for AFTER the darkspawn invasion, not destroy what is necessary to stop the invasion BEFOREHAND.

No, seriously, the whole Loghain thing was quite weakly done. It's supposed to make him a "grey" figure, but they really overdid it, and he doesn't have any credibility as the "misguided good guy".

[SJR200]

Vicious wrote...

He did not like Cailan but he did NOT want him to die. He says as much, and if you accuse him of wanting to kill Cailan in the Landsmeet, you always lose the vote.

 

My one play through I went this route because as it turns out, Logain is a hell of a debater. I lost the Landsmeet but owned Logain in both the battle and the duel. I let Allistair chop his head off, it was pretty sweet;)

I am intrigued by the fact you can get him to join your party if you choose another route to go, so my next go around I'll give that a shot.

[Mage Dan]

His paranoia of Orlais having a strong presence in Ferelden clouded his judgment to think of the rational present.



Granted he had a strong reason for his paranoia, he should also know how to assess things. A skill that was tossed out with his overwhelming suspicions.

[OneBadAssMother]

RazorrX wrote...

Loghain is doing ABSOLUTELY what he thinks is right.

Problem is . . .



He is VERY VERY VERY Wrong.

Great answer, agreed 100%

[RunCDFirst]

[quote]Vaeo wrote...

Calen was a great leader. Make no mistake, he was hoping to find a lot of glory alongside the Gray Wardens, but he would not risk nearly as much. Calen was the sort of man willing to forget ancient history, forgive former enemies, and cast aside his pride for the good of his nation: IE: requesting aid from the dudes who enslaved them to stop the blight for the greater good of all. They just don't make them like Calen anymore. His young exterior was just a disguise for his amazing leadership. [/quote]

Well... not really. Cailan was a rather bad leader. He just happened to have an overly enthusiastic view of war and heroism. A good leader could have brought in foreign troops and insured the safety of his people. Cailan lost himself in the 'bigger picture' so to speak. He didn't even want to discuss with Duncan about the possibility of the archdemon showing up. 'That's what the Grey Wardens are for, amirite?"

It seems the real power behind the throne in Anora, who is actually a decent ruler. Her and Cailan probably made a formidable duo but Cailan on his own is a bit too idealistic. I mean, the Blight could have  been defeated had all of Ferelden just been united, Orliasian support wasn't even necessary.
[quote]
They even had a good plan, that would have arguably won them another battle. Yet in the middle of a blight Loghain risked everything, including throwing a nation into a civil war in the middle of a blight. : / Loghain struck me as more power hungry than anything else. His moves in this game all seemed pretty stupid as far as being a leader goes. But being a greedy power hungry selfish ******. . . He did that perfectly. : p[/.quote]

Loghain is jerk though. And a very short sighted jerk at that.

[daguest]

Loghain is an old warrior with no more fight against orlais. He miss those battle. The king want to call orlais to fight the blight. He became paranoid.

Loghain is a good man, who lives in the past, and in the madness. And Howe have this part in it, because he betray his friend because he don't want to see the orlais help in ferelden. And the queen told you it's Howe fault for Loghain madness.

[BluesMan1956]

BringwinD wrote...

I enjoyed killing loghain every single minute of it. Enjoyed it so much i reloaded and did the duel over 20times, each time killing loghain.

...backing away slowly....

[Akka le Vil]

daguest wrote...

Loghain is a good man, who lives in the past, and in the madness. And Howe have this part in it, because he betray his friend because he don't want to see the orlais help in ferelden. And the queen told you it's Howe fault for Loghain madness.

Yeah, he's "good" but he betrays, tyrannize, murders, tortures and sells people into slavery.
You've a really weird definition of "good".

[daguest]

Akka le Vil wrote...

daguest wrote...

Loghain is a good man, who lives in the past, and in the madness. And Howe have this part in it, because he betray his friend because he don't want to see the orlais help in ferelden. And the queen told you it's Howe fault for Loghain madness.

Yeah, he's "good" but he betrays, tyrannize, murders, tortures and sells people into slavery.
You've a really weird definition of "good".

He is paranoid. But he is a good man. He is just very sick. Mental sickness could happen to everybody, good guy, bad guy, everyone.
Actually, he do everything to "protect" his country against orlais. Not for power, money or whatever. He think he do the best for his people. He is just mad.

[demireamer]

yes and so was Hitler.

[Akka le Vil]

daguest wrote...

He is paranoid. But he is a good man. He is just very sick. Mental sickness could happen to everybody, good guy, bad guy, everyone.
Actually, he do everything to "protect" his country against orlais. Not for power, money or whatever. He think he do the best for his people. He is just mad.

He "protects" his countrymen by killing them, selling them into slavery and handing Ferelden to the darkspawns on a platter ?
Does. Not. Compute.

When someone's "insanity" include torture, slavery and the like, saying he's a "good man" is a complete absurdity. Being "good" is not a brand name, it's a moral statement. You just can't do that and still be good. That's just nonsensical. It's like if I said about a 2,5 metres man "he's a small man ! He just grew up, but he's small !".

[Tieger]

its more complicated than that.

out of all the things that happen, the only bit i can't really justify to myself is the slavery. i guess its that they dont think of the elves as being real people.

abandoning cailen is another tricky bit - he claims it was a bad plan, and the king shouldnt have gone along with it, but as far as i can remember from the start, it was *his* plan? He was the king's general, its his job to create these plans, no? and i doubt the king would have come up with that plan to get himself glory - in that plan, all the glory goes to whoever rides to the rescue, not to the bait. but since there's never anything mentioned in game about this blatent lie, i assume i'm remembering wrong. it was about 3 am when i did that scene, afterall .



the torture wasnt him, and nor was trying to kill anora - they were both done by howe.



i dont think he was some amazing hero, but i do think he deserves the right to redeem himself. Its just a shame alistair's such an immature whiney **** about it

can you keep loghain alive, and still get alistair to be sane and marry the queen? or is he just too emo for that?

[Akka le Vil]

Tieger wrote...

abandoning cailen is another tricky bit - he claims it was a bad plan, and the king shouldnt have gone along with it, but as far as i can remember from the start, it was *his* plan? He was the king's general, its his job to create these plans, no? and i doubt the king would have come up with that plan to get himself glory - in that plan, all the glory goes to whoever rides to the rescue, not to the bait. but since there's never anything mentioned in game about this blatent lie, i assume i'm remembering wrong. it was about 3 am when i did that scene, afterall .

He abandons a good part of the Ferelden army to the Darkspawns. That disqualifies the "I'm doing it for the good of the nation" (because we all know that destroying your country's military forces and letting thousands of your own citizen die are great ways to protect your homeland against invasions), and that makes him pretty evil (do your remember what it means be at the mercy of the Darkspawns ? Only someone corrupted to the core could).

the torture wasnt him, and nor was trying to kill anora - they were both done by howe.

You should pay Fort Drakon a visit. I'm pretty sure the victims imprisoned in here disagree.

i dont think he was some amazing hero, but i do think he deserves the right to redeem himself. Its just a shame alistair's such an immature whiney **** about it

Seriously, Alistair being whiny about it ? He just have morals and a backbone.

[The Angry One]

You know, I still don't get why people rag on Alistair about this.

What's funny is most of these same people will say how satisfying it is to kill Arl Howe as a noble because of what he does to your family.

Hello? See the connection anyone? Loghain did to Alistair what Howe did to Cousland. Took away his entire family and smeared their names. Oh and bonus, he tried to kill Eamon too.

[Xaila]

Ah, Loghain. I feel like such a terrible person for finding myself strangely liking him. But it's more that I think he's an interesting/complex character than a 'good person'.

Honestly to me he seems mentally ill, possibly reaching a breaking point once Maric died (and perhaps losing the one person who kept his madness in check). Someone should've intervened long ago and neutralized his ability to have real power in Ferelden. Instead...well, Cailan was too dumb/soft, Anora was biased because it was her father, and others like Howe saw an opportunity to use his madness to their own benefit. Ser Cautherine was just too loyal and respectful of his past deeds. It's all classic enabling behavior... Not that he's a blameless victim obviously, but it's something to consider.

Modifié par Xaila, 20 novembre 2009 - 11:30 .

[Tieger]

the reason people rag on alistair, is because whatever you do, he whines about it.

"omg, you let loghain live" "omg, you like anora more than me" "omg, you want me to be king" "omg, you want me to marry anora" i'd bet he'd also whine "omg, your stealing the throne from me" if i was to try and become king.



as for killing howe... its different (of course, i would say that, being human noble, but thats not the point ). for a start, Howe is irredeemable. he doesnt show any form of contrition when you defeat him. secondly, Howe would be rubbish as a warden - he's an old man that can barely fight. i doubt he'd survive the joining. thirdly, Riordan isnt there going "you know, it'd be simply brilliant if we had a warden that we don't really care for the fate of....".

[Tielis]

Akka le Vil wrote...

He abandons a good part of the Ferelden army to the Darkspawns. That disqualifies the "I'm doing it for the good of the nation" (because we all know that destroying your country's military forces and letting thousands of your own citizen die are great ways to protect your homeland against invasions), and that makes him pretty evil (do your remember what it means be at the mercy of the Darkspawns ? Only someone corrupted to the core could).

He admits it was a bad plan.  So when he saw the flare go up, he realized it was a bad plan and decided to save what little of the army he still had and retreat.  It was a very sad backpeddle, when I hear it from himn.  I'm not saying that was the right thing to do, I'm just saying that I don't believe he was all rubbing his hands with glee thinking about how he could kill the king and half the army.