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I mourn for Dragon Age


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#201
Aloradus

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Captain_Obvious wrote...

_Dejanus wrote...

Im so tired of these 'RUINED FOREVER' threads. 


This.


You are my new hero.  Image IPB


Not sure why all the fan boi and girls have their collective panties in a twist.  Bioware can do no wrong, ****** off!!
You can see the thread title, why read it?  

I've been a bioware fan for ages, and played manyof their games- most are amazing.  What does ****** me off is the countless fanboi rants about linear bs, and down with the mono myth (huh, its not a formula lol)- Bioware is breaking a mold! 

The mono myth is simply an acknowledgement of universal story qualities that are prescient in every culture. It doesn't tell you what to do. It simply tells you what a story needs if one desires to connect strongly with audiences. Knowing that the hero should be discontented at the story's beginning doesn't force one to choose a particular type of character. The hero can be a Wall Street broker or a robot that makes cubes out of junk. Knowing the hero needs an opponent doesn't dictate the type of opponent used. The opponent could be a sorcerer bent on revenge, a robot with a single-minded mission to assassinate John Connor. It could be a rival sports contestant or unruly weather and the advent of a new ice age.

There are so many of these threads because DA:2 has poor motifs, story and little drama connection.  Understandably the game for many was a dissapointment. However, I can see why people enjoy it. They love the world, they enjoy the hack n slash, etc. Its not a complete waste or doomed.

For me, I did actually like the dialog wheel and I enjoyed combat changes.  None of that however for me personally could hide the serious flaws this game has. I am sure it will sell well but it will have a negative affect on future releases unless they turn out a better product. 

The negative posts happen because these people care, enjoy Bioware and are worried about the next installment.

Modifié par Aloradus, 25 mars 2011 - 10:20 .


#202
Marcy3655

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Bioware has obviously changed a lot, as have the times, and the games inevitably will as well.. nothing can stop the changes that time dictates, but having been an admirer of Bioware's quality for many years starting with NWN 1 (which I still have on my PC with toolset and mods..), I still support them for what they've already done, nevermind now or in the future.. I am aware things will change and it doesn't scare me away.. The new game is excellent in many ways, flawed in a few and still fun nonetheless...

M

#203
Fran-kiki

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Can people not have a civil discussion without constant insult throwing?

I have to admit I was disappointed with Dragon Age 2 on different aspects. I didn't much enjoy not having a proper healer in my party and I felt they did lower the capabilities of the mages.
Overall, I just didn't much like my party, it felt like Sith Lords were all my party were with me to benefit themselves. While in Origins I really did start caring about the well-being of my party members and we felt like a proper team. They all seemed to geuninely like me, when I was playing as a strong-trusting party leader. Sure we had a few cut-scenes of them doing things together in DA2 but it wasn't on par with the party banter between Alistair and Morrigan that sometime had me in stitches.

I've never played Bioware games for game-play, I always play them for story and character development, I felt liked this lagged on so many aspects to be truly called a Bioware game, it felt like an Obsidian game with a borrowed Bioware title.

#204
DrGulag

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Atleast the responses provide some entertainment after the horrible game lol.


Modifié par DrGulag, 26 mars 2011 - 01:34 .


#205
Greta13

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Fran-kiki wrote...

Can people not have a civil discussion without constant insult throwing?


*Gives puzzled look* Who said this was a civilized discussion?

#206
ZaroktheImmortal

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Aloradus wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...

_Dejanus wrote...

Im so tired of these 'RUINED FOREVER' threads. 


This.


You are my new hero.  Image IPB


Not sure why all the fan boi and girls have their collective panties in a twist.  Bioware can do no wrong, ****** off!!
You can see the thread title, why read it?  

I've been a bioware fan for ages, and played manyof their games- most are amazing.  What does ****** me off is the countless fanboi rants about linear bs, and down with the mono myth (huh, its not a formula lol)- Bioware is breaking a mold! 

The mono myth is simply an acknowledgement of universal story qualities that are prescient in every culture. It doesn't tell you what to do. It simply tells you what a story needs if one desires to connect strongly with audiences. Knowing that the hero should be discontented at the story's beginning doesn't force one to choose a particular type of character. The hero can be a Wall Street broker or a robot that makes cubes out of junk. Knowing the hero needs an opponent doesn't dictate the type of opponent used. The opponent could be a sorcerer bent on revenge, a robot with a single-minded mission to assassinate John Connor. It could be a rival sports contestant or unruly weather and the advent of a new ice age.

There are so many of these threads because DA:2 has poor motifs, story and little drama connection.  Understandably the game for many was a dissapointment. However, I can see why people enjoy it. They love the world, they enjoy the hack n slash, etc. Its not a complete waste or doomed.

For me, I did actually like the dialog wheel and I enjoyed combat changes.  None of that however for me personally could hide the serious flaws this game has. I am sure it will sell well but it will have a negative affect on future releases unless they turn out a better product. 

The negative posts happen because these people care, enjoy Bioware and are worried about the next installment.


Well people are free to voice their opinion either way. But there's nothing wrong with criticism, as long it's put in a sensible and reasonable way. Dragon Age 2 was far from perfect, but then what game is? I thought it was alright. But I still prefer Origins. I did think there were a lot of issues with Dragon Age 2. But it was alright . I don't see why there's a problem with saying this game has problems. It seems some people take issue with someone not agree with their perfect vision of this game. Not everyone's going to think it's perfect or even better the original. Some people might not like it at all..

#207
ShrinkingFish

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Dragon Age is dead! Long live Dragon Age!!

#208
ZaroktheImmortal

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ShrinkingFish wrote...

Dragon Age is dead! Long live Dragon Age!!


So is it dead or alive?

#209
ShrinkingFish

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It is in referance to the call "The King is dead! Long live the King!!" Because upon the King's death the new King was always immediately, at that moment, crowned. It is a mourning of what was lost and a celebration of the new as well as an affirmation of allegiance and devotion.

In this case applied to the Dragon Age game, franchise and story.

In layman's terms: I am a fan of the classic Origins and I am a fan of Dragon Age 2 and am very much looking forward to the continuation of the series.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 26 mars 2011 - 08:00 .


#210
ZaroktheImmortal

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ShrinkingFish wrote...

It is in referance to the call "The King is dead! Long live the King!!" Because upon the King's death the new King was always immediately, at that moment, crowned. It is a mourning of what was lost and a celebration of the new as well as an affirmation of allegiance and devotion.


Ah, fair enough.

#211
brushyourteeth

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So, this is me logging in to say something nice my friend because you are getting SLAMMED!

I'm with you on some of those points, and you represented them respectfully. Let everyone else have a tall glass of Hateraide before you move on. :)

#212
Noatz

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Aloradus wrote...

Not sure why all the fan boi and girls have their collective panties in a twist.  Bioware can do no wrong, ****** off!!
You can see the thread title, why read it?  

I've been a bioware fan for ages, and played manyof their games- most are amazing.  What does ****** me off is the countless fanboi rants about linear bs, and down with the mono myth (huh, its not a formula lol)- Bioware is breaking a mold! 

The mono myth is simply an acknowledgement of universal story qualities that are prescient in every culture. It doesn't tell you what to do. It simply tells you what a story needs if one desires to connect strongly with audiences. Knowing that the hero should be discontented at the story's beginning doesn't force one to choose a particular type of character. The hero can be a Wall Street broker or a robot that makes cubes out of junk. Knowing the hero needs an opponent doesn't dictate the type of opponent used. The opponent could be a sorcerer bent on revenge, a robot with a single-minded mission to assassinate John Connor. It could be a rival sports contestant or unruly weather and the advent of a new ice age.

There are so many of these threads because DA:2 has poor motifs, story and little drama connection.  Understandably the game for many was a dissapointment. However, I can see why people enjoy it. They love the world, they enjoy the hack n slash, etc. Its not a complete waste or doomed.

For me, I did actually like the dialog wheel and I enjoyed combat changes.  None of that however for me personally could hide the serious flaws this game has. I am sure it will sell well but it will have a negative affect on future releases unless they turn out a better product. 

The negative posts happen because these people care, enjoy Bioware and are worried about the next installment.


The opposing viewpoint is not one of "DA2/Bioware are perfect" but rather irritation born or frustration at people such as the OP being seemingly unable to form a balanced view on the subject.

Criticising DA2's lack of environmental variety, its largely insufficient presentation of temporal dimension, depth of certain individual quests and of course the recycling of dungeon layouts are all fair points - which even the developers would probably concede. Calling the story terrible I don't think is fair, and frankly ridiculous when most of those who do so cite Origins as an example of a "better" story. I suspect any literary critic would agree the story of DA2 is less formulaic and predictable than Origins, and presents better characterisation, especially with Hawke as opposed to the Warden.

Don't hate them for trying to write a more complex and nuanced story than:

"WAKE UP IN THE MORNING FEELING LIKE THE WARDEN,
GRAB MY SWORD I'M OUT THE DOOR GONNA HIT THIS NATION,
BEFORE I LEAVE GET MY MAGE AND FIGHTER COMPANION
'CAUSE WHEN I LEAVE I GET ATTACKED AND I AIN'T COMING HOME

I'M TALKING 4 PLACES ON THE MAP, MAP
SIDEQUESTS AND ALL THAT CRAP, CRAP
GATHERING UP MY TROOPS, TROOPS
PULLIN' UP TO THE LANDSMEET
DEALING WITH LOGHAIN HARDCOOOORE

DON'T FEAR, WARDEN'S HERE
ARCHDEMON BLOWS UP
TONIGHT, WE FIGHT
THEN WE SEE THE SUNLIGHT
TICK TOCK ON THE CLOCK
BUT THE GAME HAS STOPPED, NOOOO"

#213
Tessaeva

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Well DAO was the bases of the series ,even tho DA2 did not follow what the origin began ,its still a nice ,game, i do miss the different races and the multiple endings DAO was prone to more multi play thru then DA2 ,,, But then again we don't know yet what they have installed for us in there future DLC ,so i gather that is kinda early yet to judge the guality of DA2 till such time is allowed for them to add some content,,, i have found it and enjoyable game to play, refreshing as to say in improved character detail. I do miss the interaction that i had in romancing of DAO ... That i was able to chat more with my teammates,,, I feel that both have there good qualities ,,i rather like that i do get to play and apostate mage in this part ,one thing that i always wanted to do in the DAO,, so in that part i was satisfied. I rather say in and ave, it was a good job in this game, Looking forward to see what they have in store for us in there DLC,,,,

#214
Anariel Theirin

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Noatz wrote...

Aloradus wrote...

Not sure why all the fan boi and girls have their collective panties in a twist.  Bioware can do no wrong, ****** off!!
You can see the thread title, why read it?  

I've been a bioware fan for ages, and played manyof their games- most are amazing.  What does ****** me off is the countless fanboi rants about linear bs, and down with the mono myth (huh, its not a formula lol)- Bioware is breaking a mold! 

The mono myth is simply an acknowledgement of universal story qualities that are prescient in every culture. It doesn't tell you what to do. It simply tells you what a story needs if one desires to connect strongly with audiences. Knowing that the hero should be discontented at the story's beginning doesn't force one to choose a particular type of character. The hero can be a Wall Street broker or a robot that makes cubes out of junk. Knowing the hero needs an opponent doesn't dictate the type of opponent used. The opponent could be a sorcerer bent on revenge, a robot with a single-minded mission to assassinate John Connor. It could be a rival sports contestant or unruly weather and the advent of a new ice age.

There are so many of these threads because DA:2 has poor motifs, story and little drama connection.  Understandably the game for many was a dissapointment. However, I can see why people enjoy it. They love the world, they enjoy the hack n slash, etc. Its not a complete waste or doomed.

For me, I did actually like the dialog wheel and I enjoyed combat changes.  None of that however for me personally could hide the serious flaws this game has. I am sure it will sell well but it will have a negative affect on future releases unless they turn out a better product. 

The negative posts happen because these people care, enjoy Bioware and are worried about the next installment.


The opposing viewpoint is not one of "DA2/Bioware are perfect" but rather irritation born or frustration at people such as the OP being seemingly unable to form a balanced view on the subject.

Criticising DA2's lack of environmental variety, its largely insufficient presentation of temporal dimension, depth of certain individual quests and of course the recycling of dungeon layouts are all fair points - which even the developers would probably concede. Calling the story terrible I don't think is fair, and frankly ridiculous when most of those who do so cite Origins as an example of a "better" story. I suspect any literary critic would agree the story of DA2 is less formulaic and predictable than Origins, and presents better characterisation, especially with Hawke as opposed to the Warden.

Don't hate them for trying to write a more complex and nuanced story than:

"WAKE UP IN THE MORNING FEELING LIKE THE WARDEN,
GRAB MY SWORD I'M OUT THE DOOR GONNA HIT THIS NATION,
BEFORE I LEAVE GET MY MAGE AND FIGHTER COMPANION
'CAUSE WHEN I LEAVE I GET ATTACKED AND I AIN'T COMING HOME

I'M TALKING 4 PLACES ON THE MAP, MAP
SIDEQUESTS AND ALL THAT CRAP, CRAP
GATHERING UP MY TROOPS, TROOPS
PULLIN' UP TO THE LANDSMEET
DEALING WITH LOGHAIN HARDCOOOORE

DON'T FEAR, WARDEN'S HERE
ARCHDEMON BLOWS UP
TONIGHT, WE FIGHT
THEN WE SEE THE SUNLIGHT
TICK TOCK ON THE CLOCK
BUT THE GAME HAS STOPPED, NOOOO"


See, you complain about people not having a balanced response, but then you reply yourself with something that mocks those of us who loved the Origins plot. 

I am no literary critic, but I did major in English and have read avidly my entire life, so I have a lot to compare to and have spent plenty of time researching literature.  I *much* prefer the plot of Origins and I don't feel you're giving it a fair response.  Was it sometimes banal?  Maybe.  But it was no moreso than many of the points in DA2, the plot of which (overall) isn't all that original either.  I would argue that Act II was the most original and engaging (LOVED it), but the mages vs templars plot was very poorly executed.  The truth is, both games have plots where some parts feel original and other parts feel typical and predictable, but you're going to have that in the fantasy genre no matter what, I think.

I'm definitely not criticizing the writers in general, though.  I think I said earlier in this thread that I find the writers to be excellent most of the time, and feel that they could have done much better in DA2 if they had more time to do so.  I'm a big fan of David Gaider, and I think one of the most complex and original characters I've read in anything ever was The Architect (though if you have only played Awakenings and didn't read the novel, you don't get to see that as much, I think).  I adored characters such as Alistair, Leliana, Rowan, and Loghain, just to name a few.  I felt the previous games and expansions, as well as the novels, gave me many things to think about, and offered much complexity, while still falling into the fantasy genre very nicely.  

DA2 has the potential, story-wise, to be much, much better, but the game itself dragged down the way the plot was carried out.  It's a big disappointment to many of us.  I didn't feel like I was playing a fantasy game because so many of the things I love best about the genre were missing.  I think that's a big reason a lot of people are upset with it.  It insists it takes place in Thedas, yet it feels so drastically different from the world we experienced in Origins that it's difficult to believe it's a sequel.

If the writers want to break the mold and do something different, I say more power to them, but I want it done well.

#215
cactusberry

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Gladly, I am very hard to dissapoint. I really, really liked this game, as with all of Bioware's titles I play. Maybe it's because I keep my expectations pretty low. Upsides to being a pessimist, you know.

#216
Suron

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TheDarkRats wrote...

Gladly, I am very hard to dissapoint. I really, really liked this game, as with all of Bioware's titles I play. Maybe it's because I keep my expectations pretty low. Upsides to being a pessimist, you know.


I'm surprised I liked DA2 as much as I did.  Despite being outspoken about the stupid changes and dumbing down...and that it's more like a JRPG then a WRPG with the over-the-top animations and combat....Fenris is your typical Cloud/Squal..and Merediths battle looked like it was ripped out of some kind of anime.....regardless...I enjoy the game for what it is and say that it was worth the purchase even though I'm one to argue $60 is bs for games...esp short ones.

regardless of that..regardless of how much you liked it...denying the faults and hand-waving them just makes you blind.

DA2 is more action-oriented then Origins..but it doesn't even hold a candle to the original..it's shorter, it has less customization and choices...EVERYTHING is less.  Yet it costs more.

liking it or not doesn't change those facts.

#217
Aloradus

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Noatz wrote...

Don't hate them for trying to write a more complex and nuanced story than:

"WAKE UP IN THE MORNING FEELING LIKE THE WARDEN,
GRAB MY SWORD I'M OUT THE DOOR GONNA HIT THIS NATION,
BEFORE I LEAVE GET MY MAGE AND FIGHTER COMPANION
'CAUSE WHEN I LEAVE I GET ATTACKED AND I AIN'T COMING HOME

I'M TALKING 4 PLACES ON THE MAP, MAP
SIDEQUESTS AND ALL THAT CRAP, CRAP
GATHERING UP MY TROOPS, TROOPS
PULLIN' UP TO THE LANDSMEET
DEALING WITH LOGHAIN HARDCOOOORE

DON'T FEAR, WARDEN'S HERE
ARCHDEMON BLOWS UP
TONIGHT, WE FIGHT
THEN WE SEE THE SUNLIGHT
TICK TOCK ON THE CLOCK
BUT THE GAME HAS STOPPED, NOOOO"


Okay first off, there is a lot of slant in what you just posted- any GOOD story can be boiled down to a paragraph.  If you want to discuss literary critic, DA:2 falls on many levels.  DA:O is far from perfect but it does have a better story even though its more generic.

DA:2 fails to engage the player by providing no motives for our 'avatar.'  Hawke has no goals or aspirations, he is simply a whimsicle errand boy.  If a historian wrote about him in a book it would be - A physically strong person, caught up in action by being at the right place at the right time and subsiquently used by the people around him who possed strong aspirations.

After that, lets look at the goals of those who use hawke, and they are pretty blank.  The only decent one is Anders but we are never let into his mind, nor are we treated as an equal- we are used by him to accomplish something we know nothing about, until its forced on us at the end.

Bioware tried to cover this up by having cutscenes w/ the chick and varric.  One learns not to do that at any basic writers workshop...  its okay if it actually goes somewhere, and plays into the story we are in- but it doesnt....

/edit/ no point in rambling

Modifié par Aloradus, 26 mars 2011 - 05:34 .


#218
Lianaar

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Suron wrote... Yet it costs more.


It is not exactly relevant, but being from Hungary I actually paid less for DA2 then DA:O. I don't know why, but it was cheaper, considerably cheaper.

#219
Noatz

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Anariel Theirin wrote...

See, you complain about people not having a balanced response, but then you reply yourself with something that mocks those of us who loved the Origins plot. 

I am no literary critic, but I did major in English and have read avidly my entire life, so I have a lot to compare to and have spent plenty of time researching literature.  I *much* prefer the plot of Origins and I don't feel you're giving it a fair response.  Was it sometimes banal?  Maybe.  But it was no moreso than many of the points in DA2, the plot of which (overall) isn't all that original either.  I would argue that Act II was the most original and engaging (LOVED it), but the mages vs templars plot was very poorly executed.  The truth is, both games have plots where some parts feel original and other parts feel typical and predictable, but you're going to have that in the fantasy genre no matter what, I think.

I'm definitely not criticizing the writers in general, though.  I think I said earlier in this thread that I find the writers to be excellent most of the time, and feel that they could have done much better in DA2 if they had more time to do so.  I'm a big fan of David Gaider, and I think one of the most complex and original characters I've read in anything ever was The Architect (though if you have only played Awakenings and didn't read the novel, you don't get to see that as much, I think).  I adored characters such as Alistair, Leliana, Rowan, and Loghain, just to name a few.  I felt the previous games and expansions, as well as the novels, gave me many things to think about, and offered much complexity, while still falling into the fantasy genre very nicely.  

DA2 has the potential, story-wise, to be much, much better, but the game itself dragged down the way the plot was carried out.  It's a big disappointment to many of us.  I didn't feel like I was playing a fantasy game because so many of the things I love best about the genre were missing.  I think that's a big reason a lot of people are upset with it.  It insists it takes place in Thedas, yet it feels so drastically different from the world we experienced in Origins that it's difficult to believe it's a sequel.

If the writers want to break the mold and do something different, I say more power to them, but I want it done well.


Don't quote my facetious indulgence as if was my entire post now.:?

There really isn't much to Origins beyond "here is a nasty group of monsters which will end up wrecking your country, deal with them." It worked for what its worth, but it wasn't inherently interesting because you can predict more or less what happens from the start. The individual plots of the four areas are largely irrelevant to the plot as a whole beyond what fodder you managed to recruit for the last battle, what DA2 does better is to tie the sub plots into the main game and making it a bit more of a tapestry of events. Am I claiming the plot of DA2 is perfect? No, it has its issues, but the point I'm trying to make is because people don't really appreciate a more political and less in your face kill the dragon plot, they rubbish it while comparing it to Origins. And I would rather people learned to appreciate a more interesting story than Bioware putting the princess of Orlais in a remote tower guarded by five dragons and having the hero have to recruit allies and gather magic crystals before storming the dark evil castle, rescuing her and then striking down some absurd cackling pantomime villain/mindless beast because the audience can't deal with anything less obvious.

#220
Darth Obvious

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Persephone wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...
I wouldn't declare the series dead because of one mediocre game. But they should learn from their mistakes and make DA3 closer to how DA:O was...

Except for all the people that like DA2 more than DA:O, yeah, that's a great idea.


Those few people will just be out of luck, then. They are the minority, looking at the reviews and fan comments on DA2...



Oh please!!! I highly doubt that. What matters in the end are professional reviews (DA2's score is fine) and Sales. Not skewed scores on Metacritic.


With that bizarre logic, then Britney Spears and Lady Gaga must be the best musicians of all-time.

No, the opinions of the ACTUAL PLAYERS are the only thing that matters. The critics will give poop on a stick 10/10, as long as they get paid, and their opinions have always been utterly worthless.

In the case of DA2, I've never known so many people to dislike a Bioware game. It is receiving more negative criticism than the minority cares to admit.

The game is bad, everyone knows it's bad, and only the most dishonest fanbois are not capable of admitting it. 

#221
Aloradus

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[quote]Anariel Theirin wrote...


Don't quote my facetious indulgence as if was my entire post now.:?

There really isn't much to Origins beyond "here is a nasty group of monsters which will end up wrecking your country, deal with them." It worked for what its worth, but it wasn't inherently interesting because you can predict more or less what happens from the start. The individual plots of the four areas are largely irrelevant to the plot as a whole beyond what fodder you managed to recruit for the last battle, what DA2 does better is to tie the sub plots into the main game and making it a bit more of a tapestry of events. Am I claiming the plot of DA2 is perfect? No, it has its issues, but the point I'm trying to make is because people don't really appreciate a more political and less in your face kill the dragon plot, they rubbish it while comparing it to Origins. And I would rather people learned to appreciate a more interesting story than Bioware putting the princess of Orlais in a remote tower guarded by five dragons and having the hero have to recruit allies and gather magic crystals before storming the dark evil castle, rescuing her and then striking down some absurd cackling pantomime villain/mindless beast because the audience can't deal with anything less obvious.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I definetly agree with this, I think its admirable- however that doesn't mean a game can't connect with people, or have a good story. 

Let me be annoying but I feel I could argue that you just reviewed DA:2 - it wasn't inherently interesting because you can predict more or less what happens each act. The individual plots of the areas are largely irrelevant to our character actions as a whole. Even what you manage to DO for the last battle, results in the same ending. After which our character still hasn't got a purpose or goal in the world. 

Bioware does have a talent for dialog, and creating characters.  I just feel they really got lost here.  Take the mother's death for instance, our character is more or less helpess- i realize they are trying to make us dislike mages... But it comes across as just some nut-job serial killer.  I doubt anyone killed the mage who kills their mother and really relates him to all mages being evil- especially since they paint your sister as a mage, and father.

I feel I ran around for 30 hours, whitnessing events and only getting involvment at each items climax, because someone attacked me, or I got used as a pawn.

Modifié par Aloradus, 26 mars 2011 - 06:08 .


#222
Coik

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Fran-kiki wrote...

Can people not have a civil discussion without constant insult throwing?


You expect too much from the Internet, I think.

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

ShrinkingFish wrote...

Dragon Age is dead! Long live Dragon Age!!


So is it dead or alive?


Great, now I have the image of a Dragon Age beat 'em up in my head marketed on the premise of how high LadyHawke kicks and the...erm physics invovled in a fight between Isabella and prologue!Bethany.

In any case, I'm curious:  There were parts of DAO that I liked, and parts that I hated.  There are parts of DA2 that I like, and parts that I hate.  Generally, though, I thought that both games were good and well worth the money I paid for them and the time I invested in them.  Does that make me a hater or a fanboy?

#223
Ariella

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Suron wrote...

TheDarkRats wrote...

Gladly, I am very hard to dissapoint. I really, really liked this game, as with all of Bioware's titles I play. Maybe it's because I keep my expectations pretty low. Upsides to being a pessimist, you know.


I'm surprised I liked DA2 as much as I did.  Despite being outspoken about the stupid changes and dumbing down...and that it's more like a JRPG then a WRPG with the over-the-top animations and combat....Fenris is your typical Cloud/Squal..and Merediths battle looked like it was ripped out of some kind of anime.....regardless...I enjoy the game for what it is and say that it was worth the purchase even though I'm one to argue $60 is bs for games...esp short ones.


I always found Fenris to be more of an homage to Wolverine (being Canada's most recognized superhero) than any JRPG.

Meredith's battle as interesting and an ironic twist because she was using magic, the very thing she hated, to win, which within the lore gives some interesting ideas as to why mages shouldn't be locked up, due to that fact there are so manyb supernatureal threats in Thedas.

regardless of that..regardless of how much you liked it...denying the faults and hand-waving them just makes you blind.

DA2 is more action-oriented then Origins..but it doesn't even hold a candle to the original..it's shorter, it has less customization and choices...EVERYTHING is less.  Yet it costs more.


We've discussed the content issue to death and tears: shorter developement cycle, attempted to deal with complains about unwieldy inventory etc. However the cost more isn't just a factor of Bioware/EA, it's a factor of the economy in general. Hell, basic FOOD prices are up, of course luxury items such as video games are going to be priced higher between 2009 and 2011.

I don't see any denying that there was more content, but more isn't always BETTER seems to be the argument you are ignoring.

liking it or not doesn't change those facts.


Thing is using certain facts (like price) to back up your argument are falicies, as I explain above (everything's costing more lately). Also you have yet to point out what specific content is better (areas etc) rather than general statements of "more is better".

Personally, I love both games, each for their own merits. I also came into DA2 expecting it not to be anything like Origins. Both games are worth my time... And the only Dragon Age "game" I find myself struggling through is Awakenings.

#224
Lithuasil

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Aloradus wrote...
Okay first off, there is a lot of slant in what you just posted- any GOOD story can be boiled down to a paragraph. 


Rather then just yelling at you - would you be so kind as to share where this wisdom comes from?


Aloradus wrote...
DA:2 fails to engage the player by providing no motives for our 'avatar.'  Hawke has no goals or aspirations, he is simply a whimsicle errand boy.  If a historian wrote about him in a book it would be - A physically strong person, caught up in action by being at the right place at the right time and subsiquently used by the people around him who possed strong aspirations.


So, you are saying you could relate to the motives and actions of the warden better then to those of hawke?

Aloradus wrote...
One learns not to do that at any basic writers workshop...  its okay if it actually goes somewhere, and plays into the story we are in- but it doesnt....


You know, I'm inclined to ask where your moral authority on the matter comes from?

Modifié par Lithuasil, 26 mars 2011 - 06:48 .


#225
Aloradus

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Lithuasil wrote...



Yell?!  You havnt heard of a query, pitch ?  The first paragraph is a brief capsule of purpose, motifs and drama...

Hawke has no desire other than to setup his family in the games
beginning.  DA:O while generic sets up many events which cause
justification and inspiration for your characters actions.

Does that matter?  Since you ask - everyone has a different opinion and in story there are no concrete rules-  there are obvious items that connect an audience. I'll give you my ideals because I have something I can cut and paste easily-


1. A story has a purpose, a lesson that it wants to get an audience to believe. By making the audience experience the story (through words, film, or gaming), the author hopefully accomplishes this mission.


2. The purpose of a story will inspire its relevant motifs. In Star Wars, the Empire is inhuman and "faceless" . . . which is the aesthetic reason why Darth Vader and storm troopers wear masks. To make them seem more inhuman, their dress code is patterned after **** German uniforms.


In Alice in Wonderland, the purpose of the story is to discuss a girl's resistance
to the structures and rules of grown-up society. Therefore, she goes on a
journey to Wonderland, a world of pure nonsense, chaos, and unpredictability.
But she doesn't fare so well, and that world keeps turning against her more
logical expectations, so she finally returns to the surface where she
tentatively embraces the order of the real world. The motifs
of Wonderland are purposely annoying because they are designed to make the
reader, like Alice, realize the danger of pure daydreaming at the expense of
logic.

In Peter Pan, a similar purpose is at hand. Wendy and her brothers don't want
to grow up and adopt the rules of adult society. That is when the ultimate
"perpetual child", Peter Pan, who literally never grows up, takes
them on a journey to Neverland. But eventually the kids long for adult
supervision back home, and they return with the Lost Boys in-tow. Peter-Pan,
meanwhile, is torn because of his devotion to Wendy, but ultimately he refuses
to grow up and he stays in Neverland. Neverland is patterned after the motif of
a children's ultimate fantasy. It has pirates, indians, and fairies. But note
that all of these fantasies are portrayed as villains at one point or another
in the story!

The Matrix is about fighting for the magic potential beneath your humdrum
existence. The story declares that the limitations we place upon ourselves
(such as our chosen professions and identities) are a self-manufactured
illusion. The Matrix posits that truth is more desirable than illusion. Neo is
the ultimate truth-seeker, fighting the "agents against change" who
perpetuate lies about his true potential, and Neo becomes powerful because of
this resistance. That's why the agents are faceless "men in suits".
The motif supports the purpose of the story.

3. A story with a PURPOSE and MOTIFS is almost ready to
begin. Lastly it needs DRAMA. Drama is the tension and excitement that is
generated when the audience is invested in the story's outcome but is doubtful
about the likelihood of that outcome taking place. Will John Carter's prowess
and chivalry be enough to woo the Princess of Helium? Will Sarah Connor prove
that she is a survivor against the Terminator, and the apocalyptic future, that
chase after her?

A great yarn is one that maintains suspense, without lulls, for as long as
possible. And contrary to popular belief, the resulting level of suspense is
dependent on how invested the audience is in the story's outcome and NOT on
film tricks and gimmicks. If the audience doesn't care about the characters,
then suspense is dead. This is why most horror films, which use dozens of
"shock" effects, just don't work. Sure, a film editor can make me
jump out of my seat. But a jump scare is just that: only a jump scare. But if I
don't care about the teenagers who are being slaughtered one-by-one, then those
jump scares are going to get boooooring very quickly. The movie Jaws has just
ONE jump scare . . . yet it remains amongst the best horror films ever made.
Oh, yeah . . . and it's PG.

So anyway, those are the three key ingredients I observe in successful stories:
Purpose, apt Motifs, and Drama. Purpose is the point of
the whole thing. Motifs help the storyteller design the
characters, the world, and the plot of the story. Drama is the drug that hooks
audiences for the duration of the story . . . which should be just long enough
for the story to get its purpose across.

Mythic Structure is a helpful gauge against which the storyteller can test the
effectiveness of those three components. Mythic structure simply shows how
humans prefer to absorb narrative information. To ignore the monomyth is to
risk not connecting with an audience.

Modifié par Aloradus, 26 mars 2011 - 07:30 .