48 réponses à ce sujet

[Vicious]

Yet you do not refute it with science.

Modifié par Vicious, 25 août 2011 - 03:39 .

[TanyaT]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Wait, you actually WANT to be Viscount of that scum pit?

why not, banish the chantry and templars, and turn us over to King Alistair

[Rifneno]

Vicious wrote...

Yet you do not refute it with science.

Probably because anyone who thinks the Kirkwall Murder-Rape Squad was championing "the people" is obviously beyond reason.  Should I also try to explain trigonometry to this Coke can?

[IanPolaris]

Vicious wrote...

Yet you do not refute it with science.

Science has nothing to do with "truth"  Go take a course in philosophy, or go to seminary school if you are interested in that.

The fact is the Apostate Mage ending for the pro-templar Hawke is badly written.  I even had a convo with DG about it and got that admission.  There is no way even a pro-templar Hawke would be permitted to become Viscount except for bad (and lazy) writing in the game (it was easier to make all pro-templar Hawkes to be viscounts).

The only reason Hawke becomes Viscount in the end is because the Templars install their hero as Viscount because the Templar wish is the only one that matters.  The Seneschal in Act III makes that very, very plain.  So siding with the Templars does NOT mean siding with the people.  It means siding with the Templars. No more and no less.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

TanyaT wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Wait, you actually WANT to be Viscount of that scum pit?

why not, banish the chantry and templars, and turn us over to King Alistair

The Viscount of Kirkwall has about enough authority to blow his nose...and wipe it if the Knight Commander countersigns the order.  Meredith's death doesn't change that.  If the Templars don't want you as Viscount, then you are removed from office almost immediately.

-Polaris

[Vicious]

The fact is the Apostate Mage ending for the pro-templar Hawke is badly written. I even had a convo with DG about it and got that admission

What ending? Seemed to me no matter which side you pick the game just... trailed off... credit roll.

[Harid]

This is the only board I've seen where people don't get mocked for invoking Godwin's Law.

[IanPolaris]

Vicious wrote...

The fact is the Apostate Mage ending for the pro-templar Hawke is badly written. I even had a convo with DG about it and got that admission

What ending? Seemed to me no matter which side you pick the game just... trailed off... credit roll.

DG as much as admitted that "Mage Hawke become Viscount" was a mistake.  No matter how grateful, the Templars would never permit that.  THe problem is the game was programed to read only one variable (support Templars or support Mage) and if you supported the Templars you always got to be viscount and that was lazy programming/writing.

-Polaris

[Tainan7509]

IanPolaris wrote...

TanyaT wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Wait, you actually WANT to be Viscount of that scum pit?

why not, banish the chantry and templars, and turn us over to King Alistair

The Viscount of Kirkwall has about enough authority to blow his nose...and wipe it if the Knight Commander countersigns the order.  Meredith's death doesn't change that.  If the Templars don't want you as Viscount, then you are removed from office almost immediately.

-Polaris

That's the reason why i never really like templars. 

[happy_daiz]

What is going on with all these necro posts today?

[Tainan7509]

Vicious wrote...

The fact is the Apostate Mage ending for the pro-templar Hawke is badly written. I even had a convo with DG about it and got that admission

What ending? Seemed to me no matter which side you pick the game just... trailed off... credit roll.

maybe that's the point for the end game. I got a feeling that BW gonna make both side look really bad and someone have to come in to end this cycle.

[Gervaise]

Let's face it the Last Straw is such a flawed finale.  You are initially given 3 options: Support Meredith, Support Orsino, Remain Neutral but if you choose the latter, you are then told that is not allowed and you must choose one or the other.  Your decision does not in fact have to reflect anything you have done earlier in the game. 

So you can go throughout supporting mages, freeing them, backing Orsino, telling Anders he is a great guy, help him make his bomb and win the support of pro-mage nobles by cutting off Meredith's supplies and killing her elite hit squad and then at the last moment, you can switch sides, kill all the mages, kill Meredith, have the Templars bow the knee to you and the people beg you to rule - all this as a mage (even a blood mage!)   And apparently the only person who questions your motives was in fact mad-dog Meredith and this was the reason the other Templars suddenly decide to have a rush of conscience.  Oddly enough it was probably the sanest thing she has said all game!

Conversely you can go through the game telling Anders he is foul, killing and imprisoning mages, take the Templar specialisation, support Meredith, being constantly thanked by Cullen for your support, etc, etc, and then as a matter of consceience (and because your little sister is in the Circle) suddenly decide you are going to support the mages because they are innocent of the bomb plot and again no one thinks to back your stance until after all the mages are dead.   Then they only let you go because apparently a whole host of Templars are too scared of you to stop you leaving, because otherwise, if they thought you were justified, why didn't they invite you to stay!

[Piercezoner]

 Templar path is basically the most neutral ending your going to get since you became Viscount and took control of the city. It also makes much more sense. Supporting the mages is just silly.

Modifié par Piercezoner, 25 août 2011 - 07:47 .

[TanyaT]

Piercezoner wrote...

 Templar path is basically the most neutral ending your going to get since you became Viscount and took control of the city. It also makes much more sense. Supporting the mages is just silly.

tosh!
the opposite is the obvious neutral ending.

[Gervaise]

I would agree that opting for the Circle mages is the nearest you get to a neutral ending, since you can do this from conscience, not wanting them to suffer for something they didn't do. The problem is that this is not acknowledged in the epilogue, so it is assumed that if you opted for mages, you favour the rebellion Thedas wide, not just that you were trying to make life better for the Kirkwall Circle. This is why I feel there should have been the option for defending the Circle mages but then making it clear your reasons for so doing, so in fact you do end up being asked to rule the city. This is not because I want to be vicount whichever side I choose but because that is a logical alternative to the other two scenarios. And if such a possibility was based on your previous actions, this would at least make your earlier choices meaningful. Since clearly whatever you do, the wider implications remain the same and ultimately you end up leaving the city either way, there is no real reason why such an alternative was not possible.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Gervaise wrote...

The problem is that this is not acknowledged in the epilogue, so it is assumed that if you opted for mages, you favour the rebellion Thedas wide, not just that you were trying to make life better for the Kirkwall Circle.

One of my major issues with the story. I wanted to punch my character in the face when Hawke's "It's the right thing to do" paraphrase to Anders came out in VO as "Mages deserve their freedom."

I was expecting "Mages don't deserve to die for a crime they didn't commit", but since it was Anders she was talking to I would have settled for "Mages don't deserve to die for YOUR idiocy."

This is why I feel there should have been the option for defending the Circle mages but then making it clear your reasons for so doing, so in fact you do end up being asked to rule the city. This is not because I want to be vicount whichever side I choose but because that is a logical alternative to the other two scenarios. And if such a possibility was based on your previous actions, this would at least make your earlier choices meaningful. Since clearly whatever you do, the wider implications remain the same and ultimately you end up leaving the city either way, there is no real reason why such an alternative was not possible.

It would have been nice. I guess I'll settle for my Mage Hawke being Viscount and having templars kneeling to her. I bet Kirkwall having a mage ruler doesn't get carried forward into future games--except as tall dwarf tales.

[Wulfram]

Harid wrote...

This is the only board I've seen where people don't get mocked for invoking Godwin's Law.

We're talking about a game which includes references to the "Tranquil Solution".  All Mage/Templar threads thus come pre-Godwinned.

[Rifneno]

Wulfram wrote...

Harid wrote...

This is the only board I've seen where people don't get mocked for invoking Godwin's Law.

We're talking about a game which includes references to the "Tranquil Solution".  All Mage/Templar threads thus come pre-Godwinned.

It's kind of ironic that Godwin's Law has become a mockery of itself.  It was made in jest of people comparing every politician they don't like to Hitler because they raised taxes 0.2%.  Now it's often used itself as a similar tool in conversations like this, where Hitler references actually should be since it's a discussion of killing a bunch of people for having different DNA.

[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

You kill less mages if you side with the templars....

How do you kill less mages by assisting in the mass murder of hundreds of innocent people who aren't responsible for the actions of one man? If you side with the mages, you're protecting men, women, and children from the templars, which means you're not aiding in the murder of hundreds of mages.

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

You kill less mages if you side with the templars....

How do you kill less mages by assisting in the mass murder of hundreds of innocent people who aren't responsible for the actions of one man? If you side with the mages, you're protecting men, women, and children from the templars, which means you're not aiding in the murder of hundreds of mages.

People like to lie to themselves to justify things.  They want to ignore both common sense and the fact Varric's "and many lived" line is notably absent from the templar ending so they can focus on the fact that they didn't butcher 3 apprentices who were on their knees, literally begging for their lives.  Which is especially asinine when you think about the fact they're defending the templars as the reasonable ones while at the same time strongly implying that they believe the templars will execute surrendering, begging prisoners.  I mean after all, if the templars are reasonable they'd spare them anyway right?  If you're saving them, that means you think the templars are murdering people trying to surrender who have done nothing wrong.

Ahh but enough of that...  if I kept going with all the logical fallacies that get used for the templars, you'd need an OC-3 to download this post.

[Xilizhra]

Did anyone else kind of want to become viscount in the mage ending anyway and erect a better Circle tower in Hightown? And then call it Justice Keep?

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Did anyone else kind of want to become viscount in the mage ending anyway and erect a better Circle tower in Hightown? And then call it Justice Keep?

While that would be hilarious, I'm not sure anything in Kirkwall--maybe the entire Free Marches, should have "Justice" in its name.  Kirkwall is to justice what China is to freedom.

[Xilizhra]

I wonder if it would be possible to demolish Kirkwall without killing anyone? Obviously the refugee levels would be horrible, but I legitimately think that razing the city is best for its inhabitants and their future, unless they want their children to grow up in a Tevinter sacrificial glyph.

[naledgeborn]

Pfft... Viscount. My mage M Hawke is in Isabela's "cabin" somewhere on the Waking Sea.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 26 août 2011 - 02:07 .