33 réponses à ce sujet

[Saphiron123]

**Spoilers** STOP HERE IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED CHAPTER 2

Okay, playing DA2 on hard. I won, I beat the Arishok in a 1 on 1 duel. Thing is, it wasn't fun, it wasn't a relief when I won. I did kill him on normal in the end b/c sooner or later, he caught me, and I died due to his cheap lift you over his head, hit you with whirlwind before you stood up move - insteant death if under 75% life.

It was half an hour of dodging and striking from behind, it was swearing when the guy who already had like 10,000 HP drank yet another healing potion.

Clearly he was made for a party fight, and this running around pillars hoping my damn skills would recharge as a huge pain in the butt.

Now, Logain, in DA:O... that was satasfying. Bioware can do great duels... so why the oversight? I'm all for a challenge, but a cheap boss that takes half an hour's worth of straight damage to die, and can heal to boot? Not an enjoyable experience.

mage and rogue experience may differ, but my 2H warrior... yeah, why the hell did they give him healing and that much life for a 1 vs 1 duel? The high dragon was easier.

I hope someone puts out a potion free mod for him or something, but that was the most frusting fight I've seen in a game for years on end.

[wulfsturm]

Saphiron123 wrote...

**Spoilers** STOP HERE IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED CHAPTER 2

Okay, playing DA2 on hard. I won, I beat the Arishok in a 1 on 1 duel. Thing is, it wasn't fun, it wasn't a relief when I won. I did kill him on normal in the end b/c sooner or later, he caught me, and I died due to his cheap lift you over his head, hit you with whirlwind before you stood up move - insteant death if under 75% life.

It was half an hour of dodging and striking from behind, it was swearing when the guy who already had like 10,000 HP drank yet another healing potion.

Clearly he was made for a party fight, and this running around pillars hoping my damn skills would recharge as a huge pain in the butt.

Now, Logain, in DA:O... that was satasfying. Bioware can do great duels... so why the oversight? I'm all for a challenge, but a cheap boss that takes half an hour's worth of straight damage to die, and can heal to boot? Not an enjoyable experience.

mage and rogue experience may differ, but my 2H warrior... yeah, why the hell did they give him healing and that much life for a 1 vs 1 duel? The high dragon was easier.

I hope someone puts out a potion free mod for him or something, but that was the most frusting fight I've seen in a game for years on end.

I found the fight pretty easy on hard with my 2H warrior, at least in comparison to other bosses.

[Saphara]

The fight wasnt that hard for me. Also, why do people insist on putting spoilers in the NO SPOLIERS forum? This isnt the " No spoilers unless you put spoiler warning" forum.

[Hatchetman77]

I did it with a 2 handed warrior too.  I found it easy but boring as hell.  Just wait till he charges, hit-hit-pommel strike-(if it works hit a few more, if not then run and wait for his next charge while your cooldowns come back up).  Dog thouroughly bit the hell out of his crotch which was entertaining to watch though.  I even named him Chopper in honor of the junkyard dog from Stand By Me.  He lived up to his namesake.

[thatguy212]

Saphiron123 wrote...
Now, Logain, in DA:O... that was satasfying.

you thought it was satisfying? for me the Loghain fight was about 10 second then he was done, really boring fight if you ask me

[Ploppy]

Took my mage about 15 minutes on Hard, could have done it in 5-10 if I'd respecced. Was not fun in the least.

[5ubzer0]

I did it on an AoE specced mage in fail equipment. The whole fight was hilarious. In the end, auto-attack killed him. Enjoyable? No. Took me ages, but I must say it was satisfying to see his corpse.

[cachx]

He's pretty fun as a rogue.

Decoy-run-switch to bow, repeat.

Well, at least it was fun when I used decoy by accident.

[Grovermancer]

Saphiron123 wrote...
Thing is, it wasn't fun, it wasn't a relief when I won.

IMO...

That's because the combat in DA2 has been "consolized," and the experience of many console action twitchy button mashers is a feeling of 'relief' instead of accomplishment after beating a boss.

In a good RPG, you almost want to try the battle again, immediately after winning...
In a good console game, you're glad its over.

RPG combat (including boss fights) are a 'holistic' experience, where your build, skills, strategies all factor in on battles.
Console combat is about reflexes, reaction time, and "getting the pattern down," etc.

RPG combat is about feeling accomplishment after beating a boss.
Console combat is about the removal of anxiety after beating a boss.


That's why the big boss battles in DA2 feel tedious and annoying to so many who are used to the RPG combat experience.  Because it's not RPG combat as much as it's moved towards console-like combat, at least w/ certain of the bosses, or certain aspects of the encounter, w/ certain of the bosses.  (ie, ducking the charge, hiding behind the pillars in the Deep Roads, dealing w/ the minion spam w/ the mine boss)

Modifié par Grovermancer, 25 mars 2011 - 05:26 .

[GrandiaRapp]

A "one on one fight" he proclaimed.
So I summoned "dog" bwahaha.
I WAS however expecting him to say that I had cheated and suddenly it would be come a free for all.
So many missed opportunities

[Eurypterid]

Saphara wrote...

The fight wasnt that hard for me. Also, why do people insist on putting spoilers in the NO SPOLIERS forum? This isnt the " No spoilers unless you put spoiler warning" forum.

Exactly. Putting a spoiler warning in your post doesn't cut it. This is a no spoiler forum. That means NO spoilers.

Moving to the spoiler forum...

[Sergeant Pepper]

I did like the fight, his moves were much better signposted than many of the boss fights - but I do think it takes too long, especially when he uses potions 3 times during the fight.

[Zjarcal]

Agreed. As much as I like the concept of dueling the Arishok, the fight made me feel really bad for my Hawke. Really Ciera Hawke? That's how you win a duel, by running in circles?

Reloaded and did the all out brawl. It ended up feeling more satisfying, which is a shame really. The duel should've been handled better.

The Loghain, Ser Landry, and Sten (if you actually fought him) duels were perfect, and that's how this one should've been handled. A bit harder sure, but not a crazy boss fight with a million hit points.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 25 mars 2011 - 07:27 .

[Esbatty]

Actually my third duel glitched out on my Rogue. I was wtfbbqpwning the Arishok. Then he has me hump his blade using my own blood as lubricant when all of sudden, since I we were so close to the damn wall/railing in the Viscount throneroom, when he "finished with me", I found myself stuck up by the throne.

So the closest I could get to the Arishok was to slash at him through his own line of men who made that ring around your fight so no one else could participate. Then I decided to sit back and whip out that sweet bow I was saving for Sebastian and just pinged him to death from a safe distance.

[Lithuasil]

The duel with the Arishok is simply one of the best examples for why they need to come up with a proper combat system, that is to say, a sufficient one.
For all intends and purposes - go play Dark Messiah - about two hours in, there's a duel with an orcish shaman, which pretty much exactly displays how such a situation goes down, if gameplay helps the immersion along, rather then constantly breaking it.

[Ciryx]

The duell against the Arishok is quite easy.
You need to understand his attack patterns, than you win easily. Often without even using a Healthpotion. On nightmare.

People need to adapt and to learn. Than they will have more fun than ever.
Sadly complaining is a lot easier. So we got a lot of QQ here.

€dit: Also, you never need to run in circles. His attacks only hit right in front of him. Its enough if you move to the side and attack him from there. Or "shadowstep" as rogue behind him while he makes his attack. The only time when you have to keep distance is when he goes on rampagemode and swings around him widley. Big deal.

And somehow its really contradicting. On the one hand you want a faster more engaging bossfight, but than you scream about the game being to action-heavy. Jeez.
The enviorment should have played more of a role in that bossfight. Like luring him somewhere so his weapon will get stuck etc. But whatever.

Modifié par Ciryx, 25 mars 2011 - 01:02 .

[AlexXIV]

I did play on hard and beat the arishok with my healer/spirit healer spec. I basically only had my 'normal' attacks to even do dmg. The simple trick is to stay away from him. I didn't even use a potion either. Only reason I didn't try on highest difficulty yet is because hard took me almost half an hour already, and I just didn't feel like doing that again.

[Echidnalexx]

wulfsturm wrote...

Saphiron123 wrote...

**Spoilers** STOP HERE IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED CHAPTER 2

Okay, playing DA2 on hard. I won, I beat the Arishok in a 1 on 1 duel. Thing is, it wasn't fun, it wasn't a relief when I won. I did kill him on normal in the end b/c sooner or later, he caught me, and I died due to his cheap lift you over his head, hit you with whirlwind before you stood up move - insteant death if under 75% life.

It was half an hour of dodging and striking from behind, it was swearing when the guy who already had like 10,000 HP drank yet another healing potion.

Clearly he was made for a party fight, and this running around pillars hoping my damn skills would recharge as a huge pain in the butt.

Now, Logain, in DA:O... that was satasfying. Bioware can do great duels... so why the oversight? I'm all for a challenge, but a cheap boss that takes half an hour's worth of straight damage to die, and can heal to boot? Not an enjoyable experience.

mage and rogue experience may differ, but my 2H warrior... yeah, why the hell did they give him healing and that much life for a 1 vs 1 duel? The high dragon was easier.

I hope someone puts out a potion free mod for him or something, but that was the most frusting fight I've seen in a game for years on end.

I found the fight pretty easy on hard with my 2H warrior, at least in comparison to other bosses.

I think you've got to be lying, I was on normal and I had to attack him THROUGH the pillar because he just had too much HP and did too much damage, there's no other way aside from the OPs way of attack, run away, attack, rinse repeat

[yangthecat]

Grovermancer wrote...

Saphiron123 wrote...
Thing is, it wasn't fun, it wasn't a relief when I won.

IMO...

That's because the combat in DA2 has been "consolized," and the experience of many console action twitchy button mashers is a feeling of 'relief' instead of accomplishment after beating a boss.

In a good RPG, you almost want to try the battle again, immediately after winning...
In a good console game, you're glad its over.

RPG combat (including boss fights) are a 'holistic' experience, where your build, skills, strategies all factor in on battles.
Console combat is about reflexes, reaction time, and "getting the pattern down," etc.

RPG combat is about feeling accomplishment after beating a boss.
Console combat is about the removal of anxiety after beating a boss.


That's why the big boss battles in DA2 feel tedious and annoying to so many who are used to the RPG combat experience.  Because it's not RPG combat as much as it's moved towards console-like combat, at least w/ certain of the bosses, or certain aspects of the encounter, w/ certain of the bosses.  (ie, ducking the charge, hiding behind the pillars in the Deep Roads, dealing w/ the minion spam w/ the mine boss)

Hey, thanks for that explanation. I'd been trying to figure out why the DA2 boss battles felt so tedious, and I think you nailed it. I also find most boss battles in console games tedious as well. That wasn't the case in DA:O, I was very engaged in the fight and had that sense of accomplishment at the end.
I've gotten in the habit of switching to casual during boss battles in DA2, not because I want an easy fight, but because I just want this tedium to be over as soon as possible.

[Lithuasil]

yangthecat wrote...
Hey, thanks for that explanation. I'd been trying to figure out why the DA2 boss battles felt so tedious, and I think you nailed it. I also find most boss battles in console games tedious as well. That wasn't the case in DA:O, I was very engaged in the fight and had that sense of accomplishment at the end.
I've gotten in the habit of switching to casual during boss battles in DA2, not because I want an easy fight, but because I just want this tedium to be over as soon as possible.

From a rogue's perspective (I only dueled the arishok as a rogue), fighting Loghain and fighting the Arishok kind of felt... exactly the same. 

[JoshieoPandar]

The satisfaction of beating him was there, did it on hard, and half of the time consist of kiting until cooldowns were up. Found it easier on my mage, winter's grasp > blow CDs > kite, kite till CDs are up > winter's grasp > blow CDs > mana pot etc...

[yangthecat]

Lithuasil wrote...

yangthecat wrote...
Hey, thanks for that explanation. I'd been trying to figure out why the DA2 boss battles felt so tedious, and I think you nailed it. I also find most boss battles in console games tedious as well. That wasn't the case in DA:O, I was very engaged in the fight and had that sense of accomplishment at the end.
I've gotten in the habit of switching to casual during boss battles in DA2, not because I want an easy fight, but because I just want this tedium to be over as soon as possible.

From a rogue's perspective (I only dueled the arishok as a rogue), fighting Loghain and fighting the Arishok kind of felt... exactly the same. 

I tended to use Alistair to duel Loghain, for rp reasons. I did fight Loghain a few times as a mage or rogue and crushed him a bit too easily in those classes.
I was mostly commenting on the boss battles in general in DA2 vs. DA:O rather than the specific duels between Loghain and the Arishok. 

[Lithuasil]

yangthecat wrote...

I tended to use Alistair to duel Loghain, for rp reasons. I did fight Loghain a few times as a mage or rogue and crushed him a bit too easily in those classes.
I was mostly commenting on the boss battles in general in DA2 vs. DA:O rather than the specific duels between Loghain and the Arishok. 

While I by no means want to be quoted as liking the combat in DA2 (see above) - occasionally having to move behind a pillar or out of a dragons landing path is considerably less tedious then any of the bossfights I remember from Origins - where given the frailty of the balance, I could basically sit in the same spot and watch.
Babysteps, and far from what I'd want, but at least they're getting there

[Wulfram]

GrandiaRapp wrote...

A "one on one fight" he proclaimed.
So I summoned "dog" bwahaha.
I WAS however expecting him to say that I had cheated and suddenly it would be come a free for all.
So many missed opportunities

If you get a dog, he should get a Saarebas.

[yangthecat]

Lithuasil wrote...

yangthecat wrote...

I tended to use Alistair to duel Loghain, for rp reasons. I did fight Loghain a few times as a mage or rogue and crushed him a bit too easily in those classes.
I was mostly commenting on the boss battles in general in DA2 vs. DA:O rather than the specific duels between Loghain and the Arishok. 

While I by no means want to be quoted as liking the combat in DA2 (see above) - occasionally having to move behind a pillar or out of a dragons landing path is considerably less tedious then any of the bossfights I remember from Origins - where given the frailty of the balance, I could basically sit in the same spot and watch.
Babysteps, and far from what I'd want, but at least they're getting there

Well, the fights in Origins also had that element of staying out of the dragon's landing path (archdemon fight, or avoiding the Broodmother's tentacles, for instance.)
For me it was a subjective thing I could not put my finger on. I liked the DA:O boss fights, but found the DA2 boss fights tedious and I am relieved when they are over with. The person I quoted seemed to have hit the nail on the head as to why I like the boss fights in one game and not the other, especially since I get the same feeling of tedium and relief from console game boss fights in general.