316 réponses à ce sujet

[tallon1982]

I can honestly say I don't know how to feel about this information...I'm going to have to see it played out on my own before I can decide but from just reading over what is said it seems like it's out of character after what you go through with Anders. It's rather surprising you don't get Justice/Vengeance lashing out at you for trying to do this in the game like all the other times from what I've read...I'm confuzzled now lol

[Avissel]

Suddenly I am interested in Anders again.

Modifié par Avissel, 25 mars 2011 - 04:11 .

[SurelyForth]

tallon1982 wrote...

I can honestly say I don't know how to feel about this information...I'm going to have to see it played out on my own before I can decide but from just reading over what is said it seems like it's out of character after what you go through with Anders. It's rather surprising you don't get Justice/Vengeance lashing out at you for trying to do this in the game like all the other times from what I've read...I'm confuzzled now lol

Yeah, Justice will take over Anders body to plant the bomb, and when he's confronting Meredith and Orsino, but suddenly he just chills out so Anders can take up arms against those that he has been championing since he arrived in Kirkwall?

This is the man who begs the Warden to defend Amaranthine because "If one innocent person dies, we're no better than the darkspawn." I just don't see how he could possibly think he could find atonement in aiding in the Rite unless Hawke has twisted him as much as Vengeance.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 25 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[Miliat]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

It is in the final game. If you get to full rivalry with Anders and convince him that it was wrong to merge with Justice, then you have the option to get him to side with the Templars with you. It is only available if you complete the final rivalry stage and get him to admit he's been wrong the whole time.

This really bothers me, actually. He's spent so much time (even with Justice pushing him) helping people, not just mages. Yet, you can in rivarly (even romance) push him to do the exact opposite of his ideals? That he is so downtrodden by everything and the war he had with Justice and what happens, that he would condemn the people he was trying to save for his actions. Seems out of character and wrong in my opinion. But maybe I need to actually play it through and see all of the dialogue and the options to understand it better. Just, feels wrong.

[Hellosanta]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

It is in the final game. If you get to full rivalry with Anders and convince him that it was wrong to merge with Justice, then you have the option to get him to side with the Templars with you. It is only available if you complete the final rivalry stage and get him to admit he's been wrong the whole time.

Ho snap. Now I have to do two playthroughs to see both friendship and rivalry paths. 

[Herr Uhl]

SurelyForth wrote...

This is the man who begs the Warden to defend Amaranthine because "If one innocent person dies, we're no better than the darkspawn." I just don't see how he could possibly think he could find atonement in aiding in the Rite.

He might see it as Justice's fault that he went against that very device and looks to Hawke for guidance instead. He made the city burn (and possibly much more) and realizes his mistake, and then does what he can to make it better (and following Hawke would do that in his mind).

*shrugs*

[Hellosanta]

Miliat wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

It is in the final game. If you get to full rivalry with Anders and convince him that it was wrong to merge with Justice, then you have the option to get him to side with the Templars with you. It is only available if you complete the final rivalry stage and get him to admit he's been wrong the whole time.

This really bothers me, actually. He's spent so much time (even with Justice pushing him) helping people, not just mages. Yet, you can in rivarly (even romance) push him to do the exact opposite of his ideals? That he is so downtrodden by everything and the war he had with Justice and what happens, that he would condemn the people he was trying to save for his actions. Seems out of character and wrong in my opinion. But maybe I need to actually play it through and see all of the dialogue and the options to understand it better. Just, feels wrong.

You can make Merrill to give up the blood magic and convince Fenris to fight for mages in rivalry path. I don't think any of their believes are lesser than Anders. Rivalry path actually has bigger impacts on companions.

[Sylvanpyxie]

I don't think it so much "destroys" his character as much as it adds more depth to it. Anders had always taken a back seat on the Mage V Templar fight, until Justice convinced him to stand up and fight, that was shortly followed by Justice merging with Anders, which, let's face it, changed Anders completely and not for the better.

Since that change, he has effectively been a prisoner in his own body, his views marred by Justice's rage and anger. He's been constantly fighting for control and holding his, and Justice's, rage in check.. He hasn't been able to think as himself for the entire game.
I find it a nice addition that Bioware gave us the chance to see Anders shoulder the weight of what he did, to feel guilt for the pain he caused.. To go against his deepest beliefs in an attempt to make amends for his, Justice's, mistake and regain Hawke's trust.

That's just my opinion though. I can see how other people would disagree.

[Shandyr]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

It is in the final game. If you get to full rivalry with Anders and convince him that it was wrong to merge with Justice, then you have the option to get him to side with the Templars with you. It is only available if you complete the final rivalry stage and get him to admit he's been wrong the whole time.

Oh snap, really...?  Huh... 

Also, any reason there wasn't a kiss for the mage-siding Hawkes that romance Anders?  We can speculate all we want but I'd rather hear reasoning from the lady who wrote this genius character who we can't stop thinking about.

Lol seriously, after my second playthrough with a Fenris romanced I thought: What? Fenris kisses Hawke at the end but Anders doesn't? I only get that kiss siding with the templars? O_o
ugh... I hate templars... But I want that kiss xD


On topic:
I'm really glad you guys found this out. As someone else said it adds a new depth to Anders.
Still I find it sad that you can't side with him and the mages but still show him that he was wrong with blowing up the church. It feels like there are things left unspoken between Hawke and Anders (romanced) in the pro-mage ending.

Modifié par Shandyr, 25 mars 2011 - 04:31 .

[Patriciachr34]

It also makes me think that Anders has a path to ultimate freedom from Justice, and not just by dying. Perhaps this path creates the catalyst that finally allows Anders to release his hate. Justice became Vengeance because of Anders' hate. If Anders no longer hates, then maybe Vengeance will either revert to Justice of leave Anders altogether. This is a very interesting reveal.

[hoorayforicecream]

SurelyForth wrote...

tallon1982 wrote...

I can honestly say I don't know how to feel about this information...I'm going to have to see it played out on my own before I can decide but from just reading over what is said it seems like it's out of character after what you go through with Anders. It's rather surprising you don't get Justice/Vengeance lashing out at you for trying to do this in the game like all the other times from what I've read...I'm confuzzled now lol

Yeah, Justice will take over Anders body to plant the bomb, and when he's confronting Meredith and Orsino, but suddenly he just chills out so Anders can take up arms against those that he has been championing since he arrived in Kirkwall?

This is the man who begs the Warden to defend Amaranthine because "If one innocent person dies, we're no better than the darkspawn." I just don't see how he could possibly think he could find atonement in aiding in the Rite unless Hawke has twisted him as much as Vengeance.

Anders gets a "My God, what have I done?!" moment if you go 100% rivalry and do Questioning Beliefs before the final decision. You can view it as just a 'chill out, justice' moment, but I saw it as Anders losing himself to Justice over the course of the game, then finally and heroically taking control back to try to set things right. He knew that, no matter what the result of the battle between the templars and mages in Kirkwall, the world would never be the same. He knew that his revolution had started. He also knew that a lot of innocent people were going to die, and that the remaining cornered mages would probably start with the blood magic and demon possession, so it is not entirely unreasonable that an un-justiced Anders would be willing to, under those circumstances, work with the templars for the sake of saving the innocents. Justice is the one who believes that the end justifies the means, and so is willing to sacrifice both innocents and himself to achieve that goal.

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

He also knew that a lot of innocent people were going to die, and that the remaining cornered mages would probably start with the blood magic and demon possession, so it is not entirely unreasonable that an un-justiced Anders would be willing to, under those circumstances, work with the templars for the sake of saving the innocents.

But the templars aren't working to save innocents - the Right of Anulment was invoked, and now all the Circle mages are going to be killed for something no member of the Circle had anything to do with. It's odd that he'd willingly side with the templars when their aim is to murder innocent people.

[Addai]

Hellosanta wrote...
You can make Merrill to give up the blood magic and convince Fenris to fight for mages in rivalry path. I don't think any of their believes are lesser than Anders. Rivalry path actually has bigger impacts on companions.

You're not really convincing Fenris he was wrong, however.  He says "I think this a mistake, but will stand by you."  He's acting out of personal loyalty but not changed conviction.

I have trouble with both Merrill and Anders knowing that Hawke has so much effect on them.  It makes me want to avoid them entirely, just as I couldn't stomach Leliana for being so clingy and boundary-less.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

He also knew that a lot of innocent people were going to die, and that the remaining cornered mages would probably start with the blood magic and demon possession, so it is not entirely unreasonable that an un-justiced Anders would be willing to, under those circumstances, work with the templars for the sake of saving the innocents.

But the templars aren't working to save innocents - the Right of Anulment was invoked, and now all the Circle mages are going to be killed for something no member of the Circle had anything to do with. It's odd that he'd willingly side with the templars when their aim is to murder innocent people.

This makes more sense to me after playing Sebastian's quests and finding out that the Divine is planning an Exalted March.  You can see it as cutting off a limb to prevent the spread of gangrene.  If you don't sever the limb, the whole body could die.  If the Circle isn't purged, the rest of Kirkwall will go down with the mages.  You could be saving more innocents than you kill.  It's a gamble either way.

[Aigyl]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

It is in the final game. If you get to full rivalry with Anders and convince him that it was wrong to merge with Justice, then you have the option to get him to side with the Templars with you. It is only available if you complete the final rivalry stage and get him to admit he's been wrong the whole time.

Aw! This was bugged on my game.

I had Anders at full rivalry in Act 2.

I helped him plant the bomb, and then in Questioning Belief he admitted he was wrong and said he should have never done it.

However when I sided with the Templars he wouldn't come with me. So I assume this was bugged, which is a jolly shame as it sounds amazing

[tallon1982]

The problem I have with the Templars really is just Meredith and the handful that abuse their power over mages which is essentially what cause this crap to begin with. Now the Rite irked the hell out of me which is why I tend to side with the mages but I think I'm going to, like I said previously, play the other side just to see how it goes. I've only played it on the 'safe' side so it'll be interesting to play on the so called dark side of the game.

[SurelyForth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

He also knew that a lot of innocent people were going to die, and that the remaining cornered mages would probably start with the blood magic and demon possession, so it is not entirely unreasonable that an un-justiced Anders would be willing to, under those circumstances, work with the templars for the sake of saving the innocents.

But the templars aren't working to save innocents - the Right of Anulment was invoked, and now all the Circle mages are going to be killed for something no member of the Circle had anything to do with. It's odd that he'd willingly side with the templars when their aim is to murder innocent people.

This.

So I can understand how, in the end, a Rivaled Anders might be standing on his own, distinct from Justice. I can understand how a rivaled Anders could, in the end, be more mentally free than a non-rivaled Anders. And I can even see how he would be more open to his love for Hawke, because he is not as wholly consumed by the cause.

But aiding in the annulment is...monstrous, coming from him. He's basically strolling into a prison that might very well have been his and killing people who could very well have been him. To me, it seems like an act of epic self-loathing, not one of atonement.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 25 mars 2011 - 05:04 .

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

This makes more sense to me after playing Sebastian's quests and finding out that the Divine is planning an Exalted March.  You can see it as cutting off a limb to prevent the spread of gangrene.  If you don't sever the limb, the whole body could die.  If the Circle isn't purged, the rest of Kirkwall will go down with the mages.  You could be saving more innocents than you kill.  It's a gamble either way.

Except Leliana never says there's any way to stop it, and there's no indication Meredith is even aware of what the Divine is planning. I honestly don't see any scenerio where Anders would think that butchering mages of all ages would be a good idea for something they had nothing to do with.

[hoorayforicecream]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

He also knew that a lot of innocent people were going to die, and that the remaining cornered mages would probably start with the blood magic and demon possession, so it is not entirely unreasonable that an un-justiced Anders would be willing to, under those circumstances, work with the templars for the sake of saving the innocents.

But the templars aren't working to save innocents - the Right of Anulment was invoked, and now all the Circle mages are going to be killed for something no member of the Circle had anything to do with. It's odd that he'd willingly side with the templars when their aim is to murder innocent people.

Not all of the mages were innocent, but the citizens of Kirkwall certainly were. They were the innocents I was talking about... and you can tell, because there are a lot of extra corpses on the way to the Gallows that aren't templars or mages. Siding with the templars wouldn't be about furthering their goal (though there is the option of saving some mages even though the rite has been invoked, as Cullen mentions), but about ending the conflict with the fewest lost lives possible.

Side with the templars: innocent people dead
Don't side with the templars, and let the conflict keep going on longer: many more innocent people dead

It's a numbers game.

[Rinji the Bearded]

The same number of people die no matter which side you pick. 

All/most of the mages die. You kill Meredith. The war begins, whether you condone it or no.

Well, I guess there are the Templars you have to contend with... *shrug*  Come on, you've been killing hired mercenaries and other men just doing what they can to get by, what's a few more Templars?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 25 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

It is in the final game. If you get to full rivalry with Anders and convince him that it was wrong to merge with Justice, then you have the option to get him to side with the Templars with you. It is only available if you complete the final rivalry stage and get him to admit he's been wrong the whole time.

Awesome.  Now I have a reason to try romancing Anders again.

I'll do it on a "Redeemer" playthrough.

[DeaHamlet]

SurelyForth wrote...

tallon1982 wrote...

I can honestly say I don't know how to feel about this information...I'm going to have to see it played out on my own before I can decide but from just reading over what is said it seems like it's out of character after what you go through with Anders. It's rather surprising you don't get Justice/Vengeance lashing out at you for trying to do this in the game like all the other times from what I've read...I'm confuzzled now lol

Yeah, Justice will take over Anders body to plant the bomb, and when he's confronting Meredith and Orsino, but suddenly he just chills out so Anders can take up arms against those that he has been championing since he arrived in Kirkwall?

This is the man who begs the Warden to defend Amaranthine because "If one innocent person dies, we're no better than the darkspawn." I just don't see how he could possibly think he could find atonement in aiding in the Rite unless Hawke has twisted him as much as Vengeance.

Yeah.  Exactly.  Exactly this.
And... it makes me sick to think.  I cannot fathom even Anders from Awakening being that selfish to kill innocent mages to atone to a lover?!  For the fact that he brought down this fate about them?  Atone by killing innocent mages?  
Ick.  Just ick.

[hoorayforicecream]

RinjiRenee wrote...

The same number of people die no matter which side you pick. 

All/most of the mages die. You kill Meredith. The war begins, whether you condone it or no.

Well, I guess there are the Templars you have to contend with... *shrug*  Come on, you've been killing hired mercenaries and other men just doing what they can to get by, what's a few more Templars?

If the characters were able to see the future, then this would be a fine response. However, at the time of the decision, they didn't know that. We're not discussing metagame knowledge, we're discussing characters and motivation.

[DeaHamlet]

Hellosanta wrote...

Miliat wrote...

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

It is in the final game. If you get to full rivalry with Anders and convince him that it was wrong to merge with Justice, then you have the option to get him to side with the Templars with you. It is only available if you complete the final rivalry stage and get him to admit he's been wrong the whole time.

This really bothers me, actually. He's spent so much time (even with Justice pushing him) helping people, not just mages. Yet, you can in rivarly (even romance) push him to do the exact opposite of his ideals? That he is so downtrodden by everything and the war he had with Justice and what happens, that he would condemn the people he was trying to save for his actions. Seems out of character and wrong in my opinion. But maybe I need to actually play it through and see all of the dialogue and the options to understand it better. Just, feels wrong.

You can make Merrill to give up the blood magic and convince Fenris to fight for mages in rivalry path. I don't think any of their believes are lesser than Anders. Rivalry path actually has bigger impacts on companions.

Ahmmm not exactly.  You can make Fenris fight for mages as a friend as well.  
And when you convince Merrill to give up blood magic, you're not convincing her to start killing innocent mages.
It's so not the same thing, not by a long shot.

[SurelyForth]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Not all of the mages were innocent, but the citizens of Kirkwall certainly were. They were the innocents I was talking about... and you can tell, because there are a lot of extra corpses on the way to the Gallows that aren't templars or mages. Siding with the templars wouldn't be about furthering their goal (though there is the option of saving some mages even though the rite has been invoked, as Cullen mentions), but about ending the conflict with the fewest lost lives possible.

Side with the templars: innocent people dead
Don't side with the templars, and let the conflict keep going on longer: many more innocent people dead

It's a numbers game.

So send the templars through Kirkwall to defend them from the abominations that are popping up in the street. The Gallows is a prison, as long as the mages are kept inside of the Gallows they are not a threat to the citizens of Kirkwall.

Orsino was willing to lay down his objections and compromise with Meredith. He begs her to not kill the Circle mages and tells her that he will help her with her search himself. Despite what he does later, he was trying to end the conflict as peacefully as possible and was shot down by Meredith.