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[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

But the templars aren't working to save innocents - the Right of Anulment was invoked, and now all the Circle mages are going to be killed for something no member of the Circle had anything to do with. It's odd that he'd willingly side with the templars when their aim is to murder innocent people.

Not all of the mages were innocent, but the citizens of Kirkwall certainly were.

Not the criminals, not the members of the gangs, not the rapists and murders. Not all of the citizens of Kirkwall were innocent. If that was the case, two elves wouldn't have murdered a guard for raping a woman.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

They were the innocents I was talking about... and you can tell, because there are a lot of extra corpses on the way to the Gallows that aren't templars or mages.

And we have no idea who killed them.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Siding with the templars wouldn't be about furthering their goal (though there is the option of saving some mages even though the rite has been invoked, as Cullen mentions), but about ending the conflict with the fewest lost lives possible.

Genocide doesn't tend to have minimal casualties.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Side with the templars: innocent people dead
Don't side with the templars, and let the conflict keep going on longer: many more innocent people dead

It's a numbers game.

Murdering every member of the Kirkwall Circle - from the eldest mage to the youngest apprentice - sounds like it's going to lead to more people dead than defending them from templar soldiers would.

[marquiseondore]

When I first sided with the Templars you had the option to spare some mages. I'd like to think that applied to all non blood mages.

[Camenae]

Somebody gave me this link that shows the Anders-siding-with-Templars ending (with kiss!)



Buuuuuuuuut...I still don't know if it's in the core game or if this can only be achieved via modding. I know I'm not computer-savvy enough to mess with the files and the code, so if it's not in the core game then : (

[DeaHamlet]

SurelyForth wrote...

Amondra wrote...

 I go sleep and next thing I know this fourm gets like four new pages o.O

I am glad it is in the game and makes sense for the rival path as well (not going to lie, the fangirl wants it on friendship, but I understand why not)

I don't think it cheapens him.  I truly believe Justice/Veangence had more to do with the bomb then Anders really. considering how he was always trying to help people, even in Awakening he started out as a spirit healer(I know was more for we need a healer thing) but I also saw it as his natural incline to help others.  So point when the Chantry went sky high I was like "WTF Anders!"  then I nerd raged and was like "JUSTICE!!!!" and strangled the spirit out of him in my mind.

But yeah, you can see the regret in his eyes.  I think it is fitting for him somehow, like he is holding on to what little humanity Justice hasn't taken.  That he is still fighting for himself.

Also he even said that Vengeance is fighting to get over over his choice more or less, so at the point Anders is winning the fight.  Also I finished the game with the Debug and Varric says I become vicount and then disappear and Anders stayed with me. *was content*

Except by helping Annul the Circle, he's killing himself. In a way. Justice was not the reason he hates the Chantry. What they do to mages, what they did to him by taking him from his family, then imprisoning and mistreating him, is why he hates the Chantry. If he fights the mages, he is validating the system and the school of thought that took his life from him. I don't see how a Hawke who would expect him to do that is any better than Vengeance at that point and the Anders that agrees is just as warped by Hawke as Justice was by Anders' own anger.

You said it so beautifully.  Thank you for expressing what I was thinking in such a concise and effective manner.

[marquiseondore]

Camenae wrote...

Somebody gave me this link that shows the Anders-siding-with-Templars ending (with kiss!)



Buuuuuuuuut...I still don't know if it's in the core game or if this can only be achieved via modding. I know I'm not computer-savvy enough to mess with the files and the code, so if it's not in the core game then : (

It's suppose to be in the game. That video was done using the console command.


I have to go way back in my saves to see if I can get this ending. I already tried redoing Act III but that didn't work.

[Raelis27]

SurelyForth wrote...


Except by helping Annul the Circle, he's killing himself. In a way. Justice was not the reason he hates the Chantry. What they do to mages, what they did to him by taking him from his family, then imprisoning and mistreating him, is why he hates the Chantry. If he fights the mages, he is validating the system and the school of thought that took his life from him. I don't see how a Hawke who would expect him to do that is any better than Vengeance at that point and the Anders that agrees is just as warped by Hawke as Justice was by Anders' own anger.

This. This is why I absolutely, categorically refuse to interpret Anders' helping annul the Cirlce as any sort of redemption. He's destroying himself either way. And if a Justice-free Anders is ready to turn on the very people he was willing to protect with his life, the very people he felt were mistreated horribly, that means there was nothing of the original Anders left to save. IMO.

Modifié par Raelis27, 26 mars 2011 - 12:08 .

[Hellosanta]

I don't think it as he's supporting Templar ... more like he's supporting what Hawke is doing. Hawke asks Anders to "restore order" not "kill mages with Templar".

In every case of Anders (separation of Justice and Anders, his cause & struggle, and so on), there can be only much interpretations from players. Anders doesn't approve Kirkwall's circle (he accuses Orsino of some reasons at the end), he only cares because they are his kind. Also, if you notice that almost every mage we face in Gallow is blood mage, it's not so wrong for Anders to stand against them. He hates blood magic, seriously, deeply, a lot. You don't get rivalry point when you get to slaughter blood mages in front him in the course of the whole game.

Templars don't really want to kill every mages from the Circle. Cullen and many others don't approve Meredith's idea of eliminating every Circle mages. Both in circle and in templar/chantry, there are many innocents and corrupted people. I think we can't say which side is "more innocent".

Edit: it's just all my humble opinion ... nothing means to be a fact, I assure you.

Modifié par Hellosanta, 26 mars 2011 - 12:56 .

[LadyVaJedi]

I wish there would have been a kiss from him when ( if in romance ) if you did spare him and let him atone for blowing up the temple. Because he didn't think things would turn out like they did.

[sassperella]

sounds to me that this is bugged or it actually was removed at the last minute and Jennifer didn't know. Someone would have had that ending without console commands if so.

Also I think if you do rivalry with him especially romance it kinda breaks at the chantry boom. When asked he says it was him not justice that blew up the chantry, though in rivalry Jennifer clearly states he blames justice and at the gallows you get the same speech as friendship.

There is no indication at that point that rivalry did anything whatsoever. It was a disappointment that you could spend the game convincing him that he was wrong only to not have it acknowledged at the very end and him treat you as if you'd friendmanced him.

Modifié par sassperella, 26 mars 2011 - 02:35 .

[Eydris Ivo]

sassperella wrote...

sounds to me that this is bugged or it actually was removed at the last minute and Jennifer didn't know. Someone would have had that ending without console commands if so.

Also I think if you do rivalry with him especially romance it kinda breaks at the chantry boom. When asked he says it was him not justice that blew up the chantry, though in rivalry Jennifer clearly states he blames justice and at the gallows you get the same speech as friendship.

There is no indication at that point that rivalry did anything whatsoever. It was a disappointment that you could spend the game convincing him that he was wrong only to not have it acknowledged at the very end and him treat you as if you'd friendmanced him.

yeah, I've fooled around a bunch now and I still can't get it any other way than the console command.

[LT123]

Is the Rite of Annulment supposed to be"We wipe out every single mage in the tower" or "We just kill all the blood mages/malificarum and leave the others alone"? Cullen seems to think it should be the latter, while Meredith is obviously going for the first option. I can't remember which it was in Origins.

[Ryzaki]

LT123 wrote...

Is the Rite of Annulment supposed to be"We wipe out every single mage in the tower" or "We just kill all the blood mages/malificarum and leave the others alone"? Cullen seems to think it should be the latter, while Meredith is obviously going for the first option. I can't remember which it was in Origins.

I think it was the latter in origins. (You could chose to make it the former though). 

Then again Wynne reacted like it was the former. Though I doubt Gregoir would've killed her and the children. Isolated them yes but killed? I doubt it. He's too relieved if you save them. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 mars 2011 - 03:51 .

[Hellosanta]

Ryzaki wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Is the Rite of Annulment supposed to be"We wipe out every single mage in the tower" or "We just kill all the blood mages/malificarum and leave the others alone"? Cullen seems to think it should be the latter, while Meredith is obviously going for the first option. I can't remember which it was in Origins.

I think it was the latter in origins. (You could chose to make it the former though). 

Then again Wynne reacted like it was the former. Though I doubt Gregoir would've killed her and the children. Isolated them yes but killed? I doubt it. He's too relieved if you save them. 

I had a feeling that Irving and Gregoir actually has somekind of friendship like relation unlike Orsino and Meredith. Gregoir is just much much better knight-commendar than Meredith. 

[Shandyr]

LT123 wrote...

Is the Rite of Annulment supposed to be"We wipe out every single mage in the tower" or "We just kill all the blood mages/malificarum and leave the others alone"? Cullen seems to think it should be the latter, while Meredith is obviously going for the first option. I can't remember which it was in Origins.

AFAIK it's the former. It's indicated in Da:O and in the codex entry.

http://dragonage.wik...te_of_Annulment

"Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to
prevent further incidents, granted all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry
the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable."

You know when the demons befell the circle of Ferelden how could the Templars tell if any survivor had any "visitor" with him/her? So to be on the safe side, just kill them all.

[Ryzaki]

Really though Anders is just a giant chewtoy either by Vengeance or by Hawke. He can't go without being someone's puppet. The only way the poor guy will get any freedom is through death. And even then there's no guarantee Justice won't use him a puppet then. 

...I want to give Anders a big hug.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 mars 2011 - 05:32 .

[Addai]

Hellosanta wrote...

I don't think it as he's supporting Templar ... more like he's supporting what Hawke is doing. Hawke asks Anders to "restore order" not "kill mages with Templar".

That's not what Meredith says she intends to do, however.  She's going to annul the Circle.

If you click on Ser Kerras after finishing On the Loose, he says she's already sent to Orlais for the Rite of Annulment, so she's been planning it a long time and is just looking for an excuse.  Anders helpfully providing one and then joining in the slaughter...?  I suppose it makes sense if he figures it will inflame other Circles even more.

[DeaHamlet]

Anders is in dire need of hugs and kittens. Dire need.

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...
...I want to give Anders a big hug.

I want to give him a hard smack up side the head with my mage staff.

[Ryzaki]

Though I would like some insight on why Anders would choose to join the templars.  Most likely its because the ridculous overabudance of bloodmages in Kirkwall. That would be a fitting reason. Perhaps have Orsino's revelation happen before you choose your side instead of afterward (the whole him working with Quintis thing not the Harvester 2.0) 

...Probably would help if it wasn't bugged. >_>

Well Addai enjoy smacking him. I will on the other hand be giving him a much needed hug. Maker knows he needs one. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 mars 2011 - 05:40 .

[Ryzaki]

Shandyr wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Is the Rite of Annulment supposed to be"We wipe out every single mage in the tower" or "We just kill all the blood mages/malificarum and leave the others alone"? Cullen seems to think it should be the latter, while Meredith is obviously going for the first option. I can't remember which it was in Origins.

AFAIK it's the former. It's indicated in Da:O and in the codex entry.

http://dragonage.wik...te_of_Annulment

"Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to
prevent further incidents, granted all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry
the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable."

You know when the demons befell the circle of Ferelden how could the Templars tell if any survivor had any "visitor" with him/her? So to be on the safe side, just kill them all.

Ah I see. So this is just one case where some Knight Commanders would choose to "interpret" the rite to conviently allow the isolation of certain mages instead of outright slaughter? 

Because Gregoir refuses to kill the mages whenever I save them. :/ 

[Koffeegirl]

Ryzaki wrote...

Shandyr wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Is the Rite of Annulment supposed to be"We wipe out every single mage in the tower" or "We just kill all the blood mages/malificarum and leave the others alone"? Cullen seems to think it should be the latter, while Meredith is obviously going for the first option. I can't remember which it was in Origins.

AFAIK it's the former. It's indicated in Da:O and in the codex entry.

http://dragonage.wik...te_of_Annulment

"Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to
prevent further incidents, granted all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry
the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable."

You know when the demons befell the circle of Ferelden how could the Templars tell if any survivor had any "visitor" with him/her? So to be on the safe side, just kill them all.

Ah I see. So this is just one case where some Knight Commanders would choose to "interpret" the rite to conviently allow the isolation of certain mages instead of outright slaughter? 

Because Gregoir refuses to kill the mages whenever I save them. :/ 

Really DA2 gave me a whole new level of respect for Gregoir and Irving. Ferelden is really lucky that they are the Knight Commander and First Enchanter repsectively. I think that if Anders had blown up the Chantry in Ferelden, he would of been punished and not the Circle. Also, I agree that Irving and Gregoir have a strong rivalry friendship. They both care and respect each other, even though they might not always agree.


Also, it feels wrong to me to Annul the Circle (although I've tried both endings), because their re little children in the Circle, as well. I remember in Origns how Wynne and the other mages are protecting the children when the Ferelden goes crazy. As Cullen says, the situation in the Ferelden Circle was worse in the fact that blood mages had taken over the Circle, but they still were able to save more mages. I hope in DA3 or DLC they let us know how the ferelden Circle fares with the falling of the Chantry. I hope that Gregoir and Irving can keep thinks under control there.

To keep on topic I want to give Anders hug too, its all very sad either way.

Modifié par Koffeegirl, 26 mars 2011 - 06:01 .

[Amondra]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Anders is in dire need of hugs and kittens. Dire need.

If all his fangirls got together and hugged him I think he would die from the attention/love overload lol

but yes Anders need hugs, and his cat back damn it.  I swear things would have turned out better if he has his cat.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

As stated he probably does it because of the sheer amount of blood magic in Kirkwall and even that he can't tolerate. I mean, you would think with the level of maleficarum that the guy in the Hanged Man was right. Lyrium in the water supply.

[hoorayforicecream]

Addai67 wrote...

Hellosanta wrote...

I don't think it as he's supporting Templar ... more like he's supporting what Hawke is doing. Hawke asks Anders to "restore order" not "kill mages with Templar".

That's not what Meredith says she intends to do, however.  She's going to annul the Circle.

If you click on Ser Kerras after finishing On the Loose, he says she's already sent to Orlais for the Rite of Annulment, so she's been planning it a long time and is just looking for an excuse.  Anders helpfully providing one and then joining in the slaughter...?  I suppose it makes sense if he figures it will inflame other Circles even more.

On a side note, I don't think Meredith would ever have gotten approval for the Rite of Annulment. The Rite of Annulment must be approved by a Grand Cleric, and Elthina already refused. Sending away to Orlais would just be a rather transparent ploy, where the other grand clerics and the Divine would probably respond with "Why aren't you asking Elthina, who happens to be in the same city as you?"

The only reason she was able to get the templars to follow her was because the grand cleric was dead.

[Camenae]

Is it the Rite of Annulment or is it the Right of Annulment? I personally think it should be a "rite" but the game says "right."

Call it quibbling, but I would object much more strongly if something as drastic and cruel as the Annulment is called a "right". It is not a right! Or it shouldn't be. But I get that the "Privilege of Annulment" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.