316 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

One day I hope to actually pull off this Anders rivalmance (sounds both intriguing and painful). *fingers crossed* Right now, I'm too prone to caving in and being nice to my potential LIs.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 26 mars 2011 - 07:40 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

It's actually quite nice telling Anders where the cheese to his whine can go.

[sassperella]

OK well just finished the game with my pro templar playthrough, romancing Fenris. I had Anders on full rivalry and got him to admit he was wrong, that he an justice shouldn't have joined etc. and thought I'd try it out to see what happened. Nope he didn't come along on the templar,s side. So I don't know how the one guy who says he's got it to work did. He said he wasn't in a romance with him but neither was I. I didn't really mind as I'd have reloaded straight away anyway lol but just thought that as I was there I'd try it out.

I imagine that it has been taken out at the last minute as it didn't really fit with the story and Jennifer didn't know.... or maybe it is just bugged.

[ejoslin]

My guess is it's bugged. It's interesting that being supportive of Anders would ultimately be bad for him and challenging him is better. It makes sense, though; he needs someone to fight to save him from himself (and justice).

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 mars 2011 - 12:34 .

[sassperella]

But also odd that it would only make a difference if you rivalmanced him then forced him to support the templars. I find it odd that if you rivalmance him and support the mages he seems to revert back to friendmanced Anders accepting Justice and responsibility for the explosion without any of the inner conflict you encouraged through the whole path. It's like everything you did in the rivalry path is nulled. I wonder if this is a bug too. It was very disappointing.

[LobselVith8]

Koffeegirl wrote...

Also, it feels wrong to me to Annul the Circle (although I've tried both endings), because their re little children in the Circle, as well. I remember in Origns how Wynne and the other mages are protecting the children when the Ferelden goes crazy.

It's why I find siding with the templars deplorable. I don't see why Anders would ever think killing hundreds or thousands of innocent people in the Kirkwall Circle for something they had nothing to do with would ever be justified.

Koffeegirl wrote...

As Cullen says, the situation in the Ferelden Circle was worse in the fact that blood mages had taken over the Circle, but they still were able to save more mages. I hope in DA3 or DLC they let us know how the ferelden Circle fares with the falling of the Chantry. I hope that Gregoir and Irving can keep thinks under control there.

To keep on topic I want to give Anders hug too, its all very sad either way.

I think Irving would have retired (he says as much at the end of DA:O) since he wanted Wynne to replace him as First Enchanter. I'm curious what the fallout will be at the Ferelden Circle, since all the Circles are mentioned to have broken free from Chantry control, since it was where Anders was raised. Maybe Anders is a hero now to the mages now for his defiance of the Chantry, like Hawke is (if he sided with the mages)?

[highcastle]

It's too bad no one seems able to pull this off. I'm not really interested in siding with the templars mostly because I don't agree with Meredith's reasons for exercising the Right (no matter what the mages did, they aren't responsible for the Chantry incident and I don't understand how purging the Circle could possibly make that better). I would have at least tried it if there was a way to get this ending in the game, though. Maybe some kind modder out there will take care of this? *hint, hint*

[SurelyForth]

highcastle wrote...

It's too bad no one seems able to pull this off. I'm not really interested in siding with the templars mostly because I don't agree with Meredith's reasons for exercising the Right (no matter what the mages did, they aren't responsible for the Chantry incident and I don't understand how purging the Circle could possibly make that better). I would have at least tried it if there was a way to get this ending in the game, though. Maybe some kind modder out there will take care of this? *hint, hint*

And this is why I hate this ending, because they aren't responsible for the Chantry ending and Anders, of all people, should never willingly participate in their harm at the templars' hands. 

But I've said that, just not today. This whole scenario in painful for someone who previously appreciated the fact that there were lines he would not cross. As it is, his conviction for mages' rights, something that is as personal to him as anything can be to anyone, ends up being just another thing that Hawke can convince him to abandon. 

[ejoslin]

Well, to be fair, you're siding with the templars to minimize casualties, not because you think they're right.

Though honestly, the whole ending doesn't make much sense to me. You have a choice between backing someone who is obviously insane, or with a whole bunch of people who seem to keep turning into abominations. I suppose if you have convinced Anders he was wrong, he will be able to see that the mages in kirkwell, even though they are provoked, ARE dangerous as most are involved with blood magic and are consorting with demons.

[Asdara]

SurelyForth wrote...

highcastle wrote...

It's too bad no one seems able to pull this off. I'm not really interested in siding with the templars mostly because I don't agree with Meredith's reasons for exercising the Right (no matter what the mages did, they aren't responsible for the Chantry incident and I don't understand how purging the Circle could possibly make that better). I would have at least tried it if there was a way to get this ending in the game, though. Maybe some kind modder out there will take care of this? *hint, hint*

And this is why I hate this ending, because they aren't responsible for the Chantry ending and Anders, of all people, should never willingly participate in their harm at the templars' hands. 

But I've said that, just not today. This whole scenario in painful for someone who previously appreciated the fact that there were lines he would not cross. As it is, his conviction for mages' rights, something that is as personal to him as anything can be to anyone, ends up being just another thing that Hawke can convince him to abandon. 

Oh, I don't know about that.  Mages rights are important, but blowing up innocent people isn't the way to achieving any worthy goal like freedom.  He is messed up, he is out of control, and if Hawke can reign him in then we're doing him a favor - one he doesn't want and doesn't think he needs, but we are.  Just like when we tell Merrill that bloodmagic mirror time is bad.  Sometimes we ****** off our friends in trying to really help them - and I think Anders needs a dose of tough love from everyone after his little stunt.  Besides that, he's suicidal and in shock during the aftermath, it wouldn't be hard to manipulate him in such a condition at least for a short period of time to whatever strong will presented itself.  

Now is it wrong to make him side against "his own" on that?  Maybe.  He started a riot and wasn't going to see it through, thinking you'd kill him and take him out of action anyway, and dealing with the fallout has to happen.  We don't stand WITH Meredith at the end... we stand with the idea of the Templars she twisted out of control if we take their side.  The side trying to stop us all from being eaten by demons, remember them?  Kinda good folk really, with some notable exceptions.  Helping the mages is equally valid, but picking one side doesn't make the other side's position invalid.  That's what makes the decision so intense even if you played one side through the whole game, it's still a grey area no matter what camp you are in and you have to make the best of a bad situation or let it spin out of control.

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, to be fair, you're siding with the templars to minimize casualties, not because you think they're right.

Though honestly, the whole ending doesn't make much sense to me. You have a choice between backing someone who is obviously insane, or with a whole bunch of people who seem to keep turning into abominations. I suppose if you have convinced Anders he was wrong, he will be able to see that the mages in kirkwell, even though they are provoked, ARE dangerous as most are involved with blood magic and are consorting with demons.

I know that, but he should still refuse to go along on principal. Just because there has to be a sacrifice made at that point doesn't mean it should sit with him, considering that the mages are being sentenced for a crime that he committed. Basically.

And there are blood mages everywhere, but the mages in the Circle are by far the most innocent of them all AND they're in a prison on an island, away from the general population of Kirkwall. The fact that they turn to blood magic to defend themselves from certain death, because they don't even have the option to surrender and be taken to the Circle, is understandable. Despite his stance against blood magic, there is at least one point in the game (rescuing the Starkhaven mages) where Anders advocates helping blood mages avoid the Circle, because their desperation has driven them to necromancy. 

For me, it all goes back to the fact that his participation in the Annulment, and that ****ing kiss between an act of terrorism and an act that has been a weapon used to subjugate his kind for almost a millenia, strips away everything that he has stood for the entire game and most of what he stood for in Awakening. It's like being able to convince Loghain to join up with a league of chevaliers to go into an Orlesian prison and slaughter every Fereldan inside. The player might get some satisfaction that his character is just that badass and awesome, but it destroys another character in the process. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[Asdara]

And - I want to add - I make the comment I do about not standing with Meredith in the previous post because I don't think there is a single player out there who didn't - in their FIRST scene with her probably, if not then surely by the second - think to themselves "Oh we're going to be killing this ****." She drips of adversary in every reference to her - and if you're pro-templar you hear a lot of that from her own knights for pity's sake. So, "siding with her" at the end boils down to deciding to deal with her (read: kill if you have to, because you already know you probably will) later rather than immediately, addressing instead the pressing matter of the city in flames.

Saying "siding with the templars" shouldn't, I think, be synonymous with "siding with Meredith" - again, mostly because she's one person we probably think of ourselves as being able to smack down if need be by the time the decision comes up.

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Well, to be fair, you're siding with the templars to minimize casualties, not because you think they're right.

Though honestly, the whole ending doesn't make much sense to me. You have a choice between backing someone who is obviously insane, or with a whole bunch of people who seem to keep turning into abominations. I suppose if you have convinced Anders he was wrong, he will be able to see that the mages in kirkwell, even though they are provoked, ARE dangerous as most are involved with blood magic and are consorting with demons.

I know that, but he should still refuse to go along on principal. Just because there has to be a sacrifice made at that point doesn't mean it should sit with him, considering that the mages are being sentenced for a crime that he committed. Basically.

And there are blood mages everywhere, but the mages in the Circle are by far the most innocent of them all AND they're in a prison on an island, away from the general population of Kirkwall. The fact that they turn to blood magic to defend themselves from certain death, because they don't even have the option to surrender and be taken to the Circle, is understandable. Despite his stance against blood magic, there is at least one point in the game (rescuing the Starkhaven mages) where Anders advocates helping blood mages avoid the Circle, because their desperation has driven them to necromancy. 

For me, it all goes back to the fact that his participation in the Annulment, and that ****ing kiss between an act of terrorism and an act that has been a weapon used to subjugate his kind for almost a millenia, strips away everything that he has stood for the entire game and most of what he stood for in Awakening. It's like being able to convince Loghain to join up with a league of chevaliers to go into an Orlesian prison and slaughter every Fereldan inside. The player might get some satisfaction that his character is just that badass and awesome, but it destroys another character in the process. 

If I had to guess (and of course that's all I'm doing) is a friendmance encourages Vengance, but a rivalmance encourages Anders.  And Anders could end up being sickened by what he did in the name of justice, and realize that the templars is the way to keep further damage done.

Again, I am not crazy about the ending -- the whole thing makes little sense to me (and don't get me started about the animated statues).  If there seemed to be an actual reason for annulling the circle aside from Meredeth's paranoia, that would be one thing.  Or if it were clear that many more would die if you don't annul the circle (aside from some lines to Merrill after you've made your decision).  Even learning of a group of bloodmages who were holed up in the circle and refusing to come out would have been an improvement. 

Anyway, I do on a gut level understand why a rivalmance Anders would perhaps stick with Hawke even if Hawke sides with the templars, though I'm not sure it was well executed.  It would be the compassionate, caring man finally taking the reins back from Justice/Vengenace.

[Inzhuna]

sassperella wrote...

But also odd that it would only make a difference if you rivalmanced him then forced him to support the templars. I find it odd that if you rivalmance him and support the mages he seems to revert back to friendmanced Anders accepting Justice and responsibility for the explosion without any of the inner conflict you encouraged through the whole path. It's like everything you did in the rivalry path is nulled. I wonder if this is a bug too. It was very disappointing.

This, so many times over. It frustrated me so much I abandoned my playthrough.

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

If I had to guess (and of course that's all I'm doing) is a friendmance encourages Vengance, but a rivalmance encourages Anders.  And Anders could end up being sickened by what he did in the name of justice, and realize that the templars is the way to keep further damage done.

Again, I am not crazy about the ending -- the whole thing makes little sense to me (and don't get me started about the animated statues).  If there seemed to be an actual reason for annulling the circle aside from Meredeth's paranoia, that would be one thing.  Or if it were clear that many more would die if you don't annul the circle (aside from some lines to Merrill after you've made your decision).  Even learning of a group of bloodmages who were holed up in the circle and refusing to come out would have been an improvement. 

Anyway, I do on a gut level understand why a rivalmance Anders would perhaps stick with Hawke even if Hawke sides with the templars, though I'm not sure it was well executed.  It would be the compassionate, caring man finally taking the reins back from Justice/Vengenace.

A friend doesn't encourage Vengeance, it encourages Anders to keep with his cause. Because Hawke and Anders are working towards the just goal, Justice is content to mostly hang back and let Anders do his thing. In a rivalry, you're challenging Anders to question his cause and his decision to join with Justice. It makes him both driven to prove Hawke wrong AND it leaves him more at odds with Justice, who then *ahem* starts assuming direct control to get stuff done. Like the bombing. 

So I can see that Anders is helping Hawke rectify the situation he caused by siding with the templars, even though I don't think the game itself makes a good enough argument that Annulling the Circle is any way justifed considering its the city proper that needs attending to. BUT, as an act of redemption or compassion, it does not work for me on a "This is good for Anders, and this is better than him co-existing with Justice" level because, no matter Hawke's intentions, he is participating in an act of mass murder against the very people he has spent the past 7 years trying to save. I can't see that as an indication of anything other than him being so hopelessly broken that he's going to hand himself over to Hawke for Hawke to use as s/he sees fit because he does not trust himself to make those decisions any more. 

And, seriously, as an Anders fan that depresses me more than I can convey. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 mars 2011 - 04:10 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

The argument put forth that annulling the circle is justifiable is that Merdith is nuts. I don't know why people try to pick apart this. She's crazy. If she were sane she would probably have just killed Anders right there and be done with it. I honesty think her insanity though actually helps the situation. It makes her chain of command check their morale compass and in the end that's for the best of everyone. People who do not question are dangerous.

[Addai]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

The argument put forth that annulling the circle is justifiable is that Merdith is nuts. I don't know why people try to pick apart this. She's crazy. If she were sane she would probably have just killed Anders right there and be done with it. I honesty think her insanity though actually helps the situation. It makes her chain of command check their morale compass and in the end that's for the best of everyone. People who do not question are dangerous.

How does that make helping her at all justifiable?

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Addai67 wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

The argument put forth that annulling the circle is justifiable is that Merdith is nuts. I don't know why people try to pick apart this. She's crazy. If she were sane she would probably have just killed Anders right there and be done with it. I honesty think her insanity though actually helps the situation. It makes her chain of command check their morale compass and in the end that's for the best of everyone. People who do not question are dangerous.

How does that make helping her at all justifiable?

You're helping the city before it tears itself apart. The side you choose is irrelevant since you kill both the problem children(Orsino and Meredith) in a battle that last all of five minutes stomping through templars and bloodmages on the way.

Or are you trying to tell me Orsino was only trying to act out his favorite part of The Thing while he had a captive audience? If that's the case I'm sorry I killed because I was pretty impressed with his performance.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

The argument put forth that annulling the circle is justifiable is that Merdith is nuts. I don't know why people try to pick apart this. She's crazy. If she were sane she would probably have just killed Anders right there and be done with it. I honesty think her insanity though actually helps the situation. It makes her chain of command check their morale compass and in the end that's for the best of everyone. People who do not question are dangerous.

How does that make helping her at all justifiable?

Yeah, that's what I don't understand. She is obviously crazy at that point and her plan is, to me, counterintuitive to her stated purpose. If she wants to punish someone for the crime, she should have taken Anders into custody right there. If she wanted to protect Kirkwall and the innocents who might be caught up in the chaos, she should have kept her forces in Kirkwall, not pulled them away to tend to busines at the Gallows. The mages in the Gallows are only a threat to themselves, but Kirkwall has mages losing control, a district that has just been hit by a bomb AND non-mages who are taking full advantage of the situation to pillage.

Meredith's plan is to seal a potential crack in the damn while ignoring the big, ****-off hole that's right in front of her. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 mars 2011 - 05:16 .

[ipgd]

I don't think Meredith is actually dumb enough to think the Circle mages are responsible for what Anders did. I think she had been searching for an excuse to annul the Circle throughout Act III, and with the murder of the Grand Cleric, found a very convenient one that would be easy to justify to the public.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

ipgd wrote...

I don't think Meredith is actually dumb enough to think the Circle mages are responsible for what Anders did. I think she had been searching for an excuse to annul the Circle throughout Act III, and with the murder of the Grand Cleric, found a very convenient one that would be easy to justify to the public.

She's not dumb. She's insane. The idol has driven her mad even her own men are afraid of her. Frankly both her and the Enchanter did nothing to help. I felt like a preschool teacher trying to break up a fight on the playground.

[ipgd]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I don't think Meredith is actually dumb enough to think the Circle mages are responsible for what Anders did. I think she had been searching for an excuse to annul the Circle throughout Act III, and with the murder of the Grand Cleric, found a very convenient one that would be easy to justify to the public.

She's not dumb. She's insane. The idol has driven her mad even her own men are afraid of her. Frankly both her and the Enchanter did nothing to help. I felt like a preschool teacher trying to break up a fight on the playground.

Quite. Still, she seemed largely cognizant of what she was doing, and I don't think the idol instilled any desires in her she didn't already hold.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Like Varric's brother was largely cognizant when he made people eat one another.

[ipgd]

Meredith didn't seem anywhere near as batty as Bartrand. Maybe having the idol reforged diluted its effect, or she was just more mentally resilient, I don't know.

Still, even in the case of Bartrand, the idol only seemed to exacerbate the greed that obviously existed prior to his contact with it.

[SurelyForth]

ipgd wrote...

I don't think Meredith is actually dumb enough to think the Circle mages are responsible for what Anders did. I think she had been searching for an excuse to annul the Circle throughout Act III, and with the murder of the Grand Cleric, found a very convenient one that would be easy to justify to the public.

This is absolutely true. My argument is that it shouldn't be easy as it is to justify it to Hawke and then, by extension, Anders.