136 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

Try to reason and offer something that might be plausible and get insulted as a homophobe. Really people have no manners and no respect for anyone else. They also violate the TOS and should be punished for it. You also demean truly what homophobia is supposed to represent like Peter crying wolf. It is a hateful insult nothing more.

FFTL is one big hate fest. It is obvious the animosity towards BW and any poster that isn't in lock step with total appeasement. Compromise is key and the DLC is give and take. You cannot remove the hate from someone else, but you can choose how much hate resides in you. I don't hate gays, I am not preventing ME from having a gay lead, nor am I discriminating against anyone. In fact, I don't hate anyone.

I stated that I play as femshep and romance a male. That right there invalidates it. Who is phobic the ones that want M/m and don't choose any of the options despite a m/f coupling having one partner they might be sexually attracted to or a hetero being forced to see m/m being attracted to neither yet being confortable enough to play as a female and choose a male LI? I will shake your hands and converse with you. I worked many years in service jobs and have waited on numerous gay couples. I have worked with them and got along great and had no problems.

Also suggesting DLC means I am saying they can make Shepard gay which is presumably what you want. It is more likely BW will do that than change Shepard. They haven't for two games. they don't even reply because they fear the attacks that will follow. I don't blame them.

I see endless well this character could be gay because he/she didn't say so. You know what if Shepard said I am not gay there would be a firestorm. It is a non-issue. They have spoken with how they have presented their property in the games and DLCs out now.

Well they put Zevran in so they have to make Shepard gay. Nope. The two are not related. They have spent tens of millions creating an image of Shepard and have long-term plans we don't know about. Still doesn't give anyone the right to say change this. How many other companies have given you gay leads? I can't think of any but BW (JE and DA:O) and yet they are endlessly attacked. In fact If ME had a gay lead I would never suggest hey make him hetero so to be like me. I realize not every game not every movie or any product in general is meant for me. Do companies discriminate when they make things for right handers? Nope just business where profit maximization is the goal. same thing with BW. They invest their time and money to make ME and they should be allowed to call all the shots.

By what right do you think you can demand someone change what they created? So you got the hots for Aragorn why not petition the Tolkien estate to change the novels to suit you. I am not saying they should change anything to suit me. There should be no Broke Back Mountain then because if I am as selfish as the rest of you then it has to be personable to me ME ME ME. I would not be so foolish as to bother with that. The only right you actually have is to choose not to spend your money on something.

It is not for fairness but selfishness. As I stated before other groups far more numerous are left out yet you do not stand up for them. 25%+ of the world is Asian but no human Asian of either gender, no white male for females, no black females for black males and so on. Nope must have Shepard be gay and choose from all not just one. No care for the character or what BW wants to do or for the effect on other gamers. For the record I'd just ignore the option just like with Zev.

It would be more constructive if you banded together and tried to make your own game with everything you want. Maybe you'll have more respect for creators.

How would you feel if you wrote a novel with a gay protagaonist and were told great writing now change him to a heterosexual and we have a deal. You'd be insulted. Yet you feel entitled to tell BW what to do with their creation.

BW could not have proved Shepard is entirely theirs than with Arrival. We are all taking a ride on the Shepard express. We do not set anything in motion, but decide when and where they want us to. That is their right to do so. They still offer more choices than most game companies do. This is something to be commended.

PS I was never telling you how to play the game, but to respect the ownership of the property that BW created. They own it and can do as they please. Demanding significant changes to something you have no ownership of is very unfair.  It is their money and time to spend on the project and they get to deem what is important. They cannot make everyone happy so they will do their best as they always do.  Continually harping on getting something that might not be in the cards and acting abusive towards other posters is not the solution. People will be happier if they don't dwell on it overmuch.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 05 avril 2011 - 11:55 .

[FKA_Servo]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Try to reason and offer something that might be plausible and get insulted as a homophobe. Really people have no manners and no respect for anyone else. They also violate the TOS and should be punished for it. You also demean truly what homophobia is supposed to represent like Peter crying wolf. It is a hateful insult nothing more.

FFTL is one big hate fest. It is obvious the animosity towards BW and any poster that isn't in lock step with total appeasement. Compromise is key and the DLC is give and take. You cannot remove the hate from someone else, but you can choose how much hate resides in you. I don't hate gays, I am not preventing ME from having a gay lead, nor am I discriminating against anyone. In fact, I don't hate anyone.



I stated that I play as femshep and romance a male. That right there invalidates it. Who is phobic the ones that want M/m and don't choose any of the options despite a m/f coupling having one partner they might be sexually attracted to or a hetero being forced to see m/m being attracted to neither yet being confortable enough to play as a female and choose a male LI? I will shake your hands and converse with you. I worked many years in service jobs and have waited on numerous gay couples. I have worked with them and got along great and had no problems.

Also suggesting DLC means I am saying they can make Shepard gay which is presumably what you want. It is more likely BW will do that than change Shepard. They haven't for two games. they don't even reply because they fear the attacks that will follow. I don't blame them.

I see endless well this character could be gay because he/she didn't say so. You know what if Shepard said I am not gay there would be a firestorm. It is a non-issue. They have spoken with how they have presented their property in the games and DLCs out now.

Well they put Zevran in so they have to make Shepard gay. Nope. The two are not related. They have spent tens of millions creating an image of Shepard and have long-term plans we don't know about. Still doesn't give anyone the right to say change this. How many other companies have given you gay leads? I can't think of any but BW (JE and DA:O) and yet they are endlessly attacked. In fact If ME had a gay lead I would never suggest hey make him hetero so to be like me. I realize not every game not every movie or any product in general is meant for me. Do companies discriminate when they make things for right handers? Nope just business where profit maximization is the goal. same thing with BW. They invest their time and money to make ME and they should be allowed to call all the shots.

By what right do you think you can demand someone change what they created? So you got the hots for Aragorn why not petition the Tolkien estate to change the novels to suit you. I am not saying they should change anything to suit me. There should be no Broke Back Mountain then because if I am as selfish as the rest of you then it has to be personable to me ME ME ME. I would not be so foolish as to bother with that. The only right you actually have is to choose not to spend your money on something.

It is not for fairness but selfishness. As I stated before other groups far more numerous are left out yet you do not stand up for them. 25%+ of the world is Asian but no human Asian of either gender, no white male for females, no black females for black males and so on. Nope must have Shepard be gay and choose from all not just one. No care for the character or what BW wants to do or for the effect on other gamers. For the record I'd just ignore the option just like with Zev.

It would be more constructive if you banded together and tried to make your own game with everything you want. Maybe you'll have more respect for creators.

How would you feel if you wrote a novel with a gay protagaonist and were told great writing now change him to a heterosexual and we have a deal. You'd be insulted. Yet you feel entitled to tell BW what to do with their creation.

BW could not have proved Shepard is entirely theirs than with Arrival. We are all taking a ride on the Shepard express. We do not set anything in motion, but decide when and where they want us to. That is their right to do so. They still offer more choices than most game companies do. This is something to be commended.

PS I was never telling you how to play the game, but to respect the ownership of the property that BW created. They own it and can do as they please. Demanding significant changes to something you have no ownership of is very unfair.  It is their money and time to spend on the project and they get to deem what is important. They cannot make everyone happy so they will do their best as they always do.  Continually harping on getting something that might not be in the cards and acting abusive towards other posters is not the solution. People will be happier if they don't dwell on it overmuch.

Meh. I didn't call you a homophobe. I also don't think that Bioware are homophobic, and I'd say that most of the more frequent and thoughtful FFTL posters are on the same page. Bioware's track record on the issue speaks for itself. I do think that you're trying to incite something by starting this thread, AFTER having a similar thread closed, rather than just discussing it in the existing thread. But whatever. I guess my basic response to this (and to anyone who opposes it on "rational grounds") is "why do you care?" As you say, it only affects you if you want it to.

Yes - Shepard is Bioware's character, and they can do with her - or him - what they will. Yes, there is a broad, unchangeable narrative that is unaffected by the smaller decisions that the player can make. But I believe that some of the more subtle aspects of Shepard's character are more fluid than the CEO and developer soundbites claim, whether they like that or not. This fluidity makes for a more interesting and relatable potential character. I want to stress the word "potential." There's no canon Shepard - s/he varies from playthrough to playthrough. Fine, you can't literally be anything or act in any way at all, you have to play within the parameters set by the developers. I'm OK with this. But a renegade femshep is not the same character as a paragon femshep (or mshep - or a neutral mshep). The player has the freedom, within those parameters, to dictate Shepard's personality in the way that s/he deems fit. Whether the player is projecting his or herself into Shepard's shoes and making the decisions they would make in that situation or just trying to create an engaging character to followdoesn't matter - they can (and should) have the freedom to do this. And it's not unreasonable to ask for more customizability to complement what already exists. To expand those parameters, if you will.

It looks like this is going to turn into another thread about s/s romances rather than the extent to which Shepard is pre-defined. If that's what's happening,  then the following stands - of all possible Shepard's one of them ("Jane" Shepard) can act in accordance with homosexual or bisexual preferences and even identify as such. It is readily apparent from recorded dialogue that, at some point in the development of both games, "John" Shepard had this option as well. Why is it open to the one and not the other? And why is it acceptable for Bioware to include it in other IPs but not Mass Effect?

Also, RE creator intent - I think it's disingenuous to equate a game with other artistic mediums, particularly novels. I am not about to deny the artistry and vision involved - I think Bioware's games are frequently brilliant and that Mass Effect's particular brand of storytelling is revolutionary in many ways. But a video game, as you point out, needs to maximize it's appeal to it's audience, and that can mean tailoring your artistic vision to the preferences of that audience in order to ensure success.  This isn't something that most authors have to do. Tolkien did not proactively seek out his audience to collect feedback, as Bioware does on this forum. They took what their fans said they wanted and ran with it - just to give a couple of examples, that's why we gained romanceable Garrus/Tali and that's why we lost the tiresome inventory system and ctrl-v arsenal of the first game. Like these folks, we're just voicing our opinion on how the game can be improved using the forum that Bioware provided to do so. So it's silly to accuse us of being disrespectful of their "ownership" of the character that they want to sell to us.

Also, a note s/s romances and  "maximizing" appeal. Most people who don't want s/s use that argument to say "just don't put it in - focus on the straight 'majority.'" Bioware proved in Dragon Age 2 that they can implement s/s romances in a way that is both inclusive and respectful and in accordance with their aim to make the game more accessible to everybody. It would just be nice if they went that direction in Mass Effect as well. It's their choice to do, obviously. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't provide feedback.

Posting this on my lunchbreak, so my apologies if this is at all disjointed.

Also, edit for weird formatting, because this form seems to hate it when I paste text in.

Modifié par TommyServo, 05 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[Bamboozalist]

@OP:

You are everything that is wrong with RPG communities.

THE ENTIRE POINT OF AN RPG IS TO ROLE-PLAY! Yes, we are Shepard, either as an extension of our own personality (IE making choices we would make) or as a fictional character we've invented the personality for.

Shepard is the PC's character, not just the character they are controlling, they ARE Shepard in the play through, they make choices based on Shepard's personality THEY crafted.

If you want a game with a set main character personality with a set history and a predefined set of actions that you have no impact on, DON'T PLAY AN RPG! (JRPGs aren't role-playing games, they're adventure-strategy games, the only reason they're called RPGs is they're based on early WRPGs which didn't have the technology to actually let us role play so they just copied D&D's mechanics)

If someone Shepard to be a racist ****, they are. If someone wants Shepard to be a father/mother to his/her crew but a complete dick/ice queen to everyone else, they are. If someone wants Shepard to never take any renegade interrupts and is as pacifist as the game lets them be, they are. And so on.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

*Sees thread, reads OP

I think I'll be going.

[DashRunner92]

This thread is full of fail. RPG = Role-Playing Game = YOU the PLAYER who is PLAYING the game enters the ROLE of the main character. Asking Bioware for clothes and other stuff is just asking for stuff. Their suggestions that hopefully Bioware will look at and say "Ok let's try it out in the next game"

[FKA_Servo]

DashRunner92 wrote...

This thread is full of fail. RPG = Role-Playing Game = YOU the PLAYER who is PLAYING the game enters the ROLE of the main character. Asking Bioware for clothes and other stuff is just asking for stuff. Their suggestions that hopefully Bioware will look at and say "Ok let's try it out in the next game"

Quoting and bolding this awesome thing.

[Firewolf99]

Gonna be honest, I'm kind of torn.

On the one hand, yeah, i totally get what people are saying. You do put a lot of yourself into the character of Shepard. I, for example, can never play anything but saintly, sickly sweet Paragon. And I've got four playthroughs.

BUT: lets face it. I'm willing to bet 95% of us are not commando's, and 99.9% of us are not space commando's attempting to stop a sentient mechine threat from destroying galactic civilisation (the 0.1% i the Geth who have infiltrated this site... unintentionally). We are unlikely to ever be Shepard. How can we  say that we will react the same as we choose to in-game?

And as for complaining whn plot choices don't go our way: again, I get that it's an irritation. Like Harry/Herione shippers got pissed off when Harry got with Ginny. (OK, crap example, but it's late at night dammit!) But at the same time, what the bloke who started this thread (I presume) is trying to say is that the developer has to make a choice: It cannot satisfy everyone and to be honest, there will always be a complaint.

[LiquidGrape]

I'm onboard with the idea of a character with determined traits by which the player must abide. Those are the essentials of roleplaying, after all.
What I'm not onboard with is the blatant hypocrisy in allowing one incarnation of Shepard to pursue a romance with characters of their own sex (even though the options are limited and never properly addressed), and denying another the same opportunity.
It makes no sense whatsoever, considering the character is identical regardless of gender.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 05 avril 2011 - 09:51 .

[Minister of Sound]

I clearly remember Casey Hudson saying, in the E3 06 Mass Effect Trailer, that "Mass Effect is your story, your adventure".

[Icinix]

Minister of Sound wrote...

I clearly remember Casey Hudson saying, in the E3 06 Mass Effect Trailer, that "Mass Effect is your story, your adventure".

This. It was said and is stil stated frequently.

...I think you and your supporters may be missing a lot of what BioWare games have ever been and everything BioWare said Mass Effect would be.  If they've now decided to change direction of existing series mid-series...then yes..people have a right to be irate about it.
Besides they have, on numerous occasions, come out and said we are looking for your feedback and we changed ME2 based on feedback we received on the forums.  So even if you don't agree with what others are saying, this is their place for their voice to be heard.

I like you've gone all Chris Crocker with Bioware...I really do   But we are the fans, the passionate, the community, the consumer.  We have the right to put up our hands and say..these are the style of games we want to play.  I will not be dictated by any games company telling me what games I WANT to play...and HOW I want to play them (BioWare has never done this and been very open with community involvement). I have the right to give a compnay my thoughts, my feedback.  No, I don't get to make demands, no one does, but debate, suggestions, ideas, concepts - whatever. Those we have the right to post, write, speak and so fourth.

[Euno17]

lol I love how the OP creates the title of the thread: You are not shepard' then writes like 4 paragraphs telling us why we aren't Shepard etc . . .

Would you also like to create a thread stating that we don't live in the ME universe? Or that geth don't exist? etc etc etc etc . . . .

interestingly enough, despite the fact that this thread is pointless - I did get a kick out of the few witty/saractic posts. Bravo to them.

[technoquarian]