25 réponses à ce sujet

[TillyBomas]

You know, I just realized how crazy this game is.  Not that its bad, don't take it that way.. but.. just.. this situation.

I have an apostate Mage sister, a Dalish Elf Keeper (Mage) A Gray Warden Mage in my group.  

Doing a quest for the Templar, such as saving one from bandits... or a group of them in battle against other apostates.. I am casting spells everywhere... why don't the Templar's arrest me or my companions?

Or hell, when I first get to the city, and there are guards blocking the way.  The Gallows is the Templars stronghold..

Bandits attack a guard, my sister calls down a hail of fire from the sky.  Fire is blasting all around.  Why do the Templlars not attack?  Why doesn't one of the guards report this use of magic?

I won't get into the sillyness of wandering around the city or Templar Compound with mages.. I mean, hooded robed men and women carrying magical inscribed staffs that use magic against everything around them.....



Also, another thing that bothered me.  Why is it there is almost no dealings with any of the criminal elements?  I mean, you hear about tthe Coterie, the Carta, and these Small groups like followers of she and Doglords... however short of one quests for Hubert, where you are ''aided' by a memeber of the Coterie, you never have any real dealings with them.  Being based in a single city, I would think that it should be possible for you to gain more reputation in the underworld... perhaps even fighting Avaline later, as she rises up as a guard.  But, thats just me.

[maegi46]

This thread again? Agree it's silly and ruins believability....but this has been complained about by several others already. Mods need to make one big sticky I Hate DA2 thread and one sticky I Love DA2 thread, seriously

[TillyBomas]

As I said, I don't hate the game, just thought about it.

But what about the Criminal Underworld?

[Zenstrive]

Templars are busy?
They know you are powerful mage with friends and not risking capturing you alone?
Thugs are there for you to level up and gain money from "a friend" ?

[SeanNorm]

I agree with the OP, the whole Templar relationship goes exactly the same if Hawke be a warrior or a mage. It'd be cool if this was even mentioned/explained in dialogue; for example Templars are slighlty more hostile than normal if your a mage.

[Saboteur-6]

*Sighs*

Seriously. I think the answer is pretty obvious...it's a video game.

These sort of things are "holes" or inconsistent discrepancies between the bridge of gameplay and story immersion. Tons of games suffer from them as it's a limitation of the medium.

[CRISIS1717]

Vech24 wrote...

*Sighs*

Seriously. I think the answer is pretty obvious...it's a video game.

These sort of things are "holes" or inconsistent discrepancies between the bridge of gameplay and story immersion. Tons of games suffer from them as it's a limitation of the medium.

It's not a limitation of the medium at all, look how character's behaved in Assassin's Creed, if they see you running around on rooftops they get suspicious and then they finally think hey thats the Assassino!

If there were any limitations here it was the scope of the project or the inexperience of the team to make the characters behave properly.

[TillyBomas]

Well, I am just curious if it was just 'video game magic' or just poor scripting. I mean, I suppose being an Apostate Mage that goes from a refugee to Champion is possible.. though with how 'fanatic' Meridith is depicted, it just seems very unlikly. I mean, once I DO become champion of Kirkwal, Wouldn't one of Meridiths first objectives be to arrest me for being a mage?

(Have not played through as a mage yet, just a warrior, and doing a rogue right now.)

[Aldandil]

I think it's one part "Separate game play from story" and one part "We'd rather not get into that" from the writers. If you're a mage, it's made clear by the time of the Qunari attack that Meredith knows you're a mage, but chooses not to act. Add your own reasons as to why.

[Foolsfolly]

Yeah, it's not a limitation for games at all. Games as far back as Daggerfall had laws you could break and consequences for breaking them. (I think, I know Morrowind did.)

Meredith does give a few token acknowledgments to you being a mage but it makes no sense for her to work with you.

[Arrtis]

mages have a spell that conceal magic and makes an illusion.
Then....it takes a very powerful templar to see through it.

[Foolsfolly]

Arrtis wrote...

mages have a spell that conceal magic and makes an illusion.
Then....it takes a very powerful templar to see through it.

Conceal? Illusion?

Sounds like Rogues to me. They go invisible and create decoys, don't ask how.

[Eudaemonium]

Aldandil wrote...

I think it's one part "Separate game
play from story" and one part "We'd rather not get into that" from the
writers. If you're a mage, it's made clear by the time of the Qunari
attack that Meredith knows you're a mage, but chooses not to act. Add
your own reasons as to why.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Meredith does give a few token acknowledgments to you being a mage but it makes no sense for her to work with you.

The way I saw it was that at the end of Act II Meredith isn't really anywhere near as fanatical as she's made out to be (Anders' companion quest 'Dissent' shows this). By the time she realises you are a mage there are bigger pressing concerns (full-scale Qunari warfare). She says that she'll track you down once this is over. The issue is that you become the Champion, which grants you a certain amount of political immunity which prevents her from acting. She states in Act 3 that the only reason she lets you go free is because you have proven to be a protector of the city, and not to do anything that would make her re-assess that viewpoint.

[Foolsfolly]

That still isn't enough of a reason for Meredith, especially Act 3 Meredith who's gone bonkers thanks to the idol-sword on her back.

She'd see the Champion has a bad influence on the mages, telling them any apostate can rise to Champion and be immune to the laws of the Chantry. If anything, the notoriety would make Hawke a target for Meredith's wrath; the desire to make an example out of the most famous mage in Kirkwall would be too much for her.

Plus, the Circle Mages defended the city. Orsino himself did that awesome diversion.

I just don't buy someone with Meredith's level of hatred for mages would allow one so powerful and famous to walk free. Especially after you hear the story about her mage sister.

Edit:

Plus she sent like a dozen knights up to the Dalish camp to get that half-elf kid if you let him go to the Dalsih. A dozen knights to take down one kid that they think is only a mage and not a Dreamer. She's kinda obessed with mages.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 25 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[Apollo Starflare]

This is an issue I sort of have with the game as well. I say sort of because I can easily suspend my disbelief and just imagine any number of ways it could 'really' be happening behind the game mechanics (you never use magic when in public, you use non obviously magical abilities to help the party etc.)

Of course the reason it is still a problem I recognise is because I know not everyone shares the ability to imagine away discrepancies of this sort. The issue for me isn't so much that you can wonder around casting magic without having to hide your identity and such, but rather that they went ahead with making the game heavily focused on the Templar/Mage plotline without thinking of a way to make being a mage or having a mage in your party matter. That is, of course, no easy problem to overcome; it would possibly involve a radical change in the way the game plays to some extent. If they made it so playing a mage was too much of a different experience, no doubt warriors and rogues would bemoan being shortchanged for instance. Not to mention the potential development time and expense required to make a believable 'apostate mage in hiding' scenario a reality.

At the end of the day I'm happy to have the otherwise brilliantly handled mage/templar story at the expense of somewhat unrealistic/logical gameplay, but I can certainly see where people are coming from with the complaint.

Foolsfolly wrote...

That still isn't enough of a reason for Meredith, especially Act 3 Meredith who's gone bonkers thanks to the idol-sword on her back.

She'd see the Champion has a bad influence on the mages, telling them any apostate can rise to Champion and be immune to the laws of the Chantry. If anything, the notoriety would make Hawke a target for Meredith's wrath; the desire to make an example out of the most famous mage in Kirkwall would be too much for her.

Plus, the Circle Mages defended the city. Orsino himself did that awesome diversion.

I just don't buy someone with Meredith's level of hatred for mages would allow one so powerful and famous to walk free. Especially after you hear the story about her mage sister.

Edit:

Plus she sent like a dozen knights up to the Dalish camp to get that half-elf kid if you let him go to the Dalsih. A dozen knights to take down one kid that they think is only a mage and not a Dreamer. She's kinda obessed with mages.

Meredith is an odd one though, she is obsessed by mages but her 'hatred' for them (if it even is that) is blown out of proportion by those opposing her. This is partly what leads Kirkwall to such a crisis point, regardless of the lyrium idol. Looking at the effect the idol had on Bartrand I actually think Meredith had incredible reserves of willpower to withstand it's power (or at least, the full enormity of it) for as long as she did. Meeting her in act 2 and following the act 3 quests kept pointing at how she wasn't as far wrong as some might believe (the conspiracy was real, Grace etc.) Does that mean she was right or sane? Not at all, but there was definitely normal Templar control behind the madness almost until the end I think.

All this means is that I can see her warped mind even in act 3 accepting Hawke as an obstacle/threat that would need a degree of care to have removed. No doubt she didn't trust you a jot, even if you help her as a mage, but she would go along with it until she could solidfy her power base and take you out of the picture with overwhelming force or subtlety.

Just my take on it though.

[Foolsfolly]

I believe Meredith was right.

And the idol made her existing paranoia into full on crazy hatred that left all reason behind. The key example being Cullen telling her to step down and Meredith immediately says he's under the influence of Blood Magic.

But she was right. There was a conspiracy, the Circle is full to the brim with blood mages, and even Orsino studied blood magic and necromancy while harboring a serial killing blood mage. That's a pretty big win for Meredith.

So big, in fact, I get the feeling the Idol was added later to make her less correct.

I really hate that stupid deus ex machina Idol. What does it do? How does she know how to use it? Who forged a pure lyrium idol into a sword? Lyrium's toxic. Someone had to know that that was the idol from before and someone had to know that it drove its previous owner insane. At the very least, since lyrium work is usually handled by the dwarves then Varric should have known easily that Meredith bought the idol.

But man, I hate that Idol. It's not interesting, it's never example or explored, and it's just lazy writing to make Meredith less interesting and crazy.

I can also accept your take on good faith for BioWare.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 25 mars 2011 - 11:18 .

[TillyBomas]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Yeah, it's not a limitation for games at all. Games as far back as Daggerfall had laws you could break and consequences for breaking them. (I think, I know Morrowind did.)

Meredith does give a few token acknowledgments to you being a mage but it makes no sense for her to work with you.

Ah, Daggerfall.  Yes, laws could be broken, and you went to jail or were banned from citys, or killed on site.  However, in that game TIME was also a factor, and sometimes things happened because you failed to complete something or failed to act.  Arena was similar.

Now, on laws, I again bring up, that there is a huge criminal underworld in the city, but you never interact with it.  I mean, I joined Smugglers, and made a name for myself in a year (somehow) so.. why don't I have quests for the Coterie?  Enforcer type work?  I know 'beacues thats not the scope of the game'.  But there is never any reason why not. 

The way I saw it was that at the end of Act II Meredith isn't really
anywhere near as fanatical as she's made out to be (Anders' companion
quest 'Dissent' shows this). By the time she realises you are a mage
there are bigger pressing concerns (full-scale Qunari warfare). She says
that she'll track you down once this is over. The issue is that you
become the Champion, which grants you a certain amount of political
immunity which prevents her from acting. She states in Act 3 that the
only reason she lets you go free is because you have proven to be a
protector of the city, and not to do anything that would make her
re-assess that viewpoint.

Alright, this I can understand.  It makes some sense at least, and at least it is talked about.  Not realistic persay, BUT something that at least shows that there is some kind of consiquense. 


Sorry ranting.. need to get to bed..

[PinkShoes]

Hvae you noticed that the templars seem pretty damn useless at catching mages?

[AlexXIV]

Well I think from act 2 or at least act 3 Meredith and Cullen know that Hawke is an apostate. If he/she is one, that is. Also I just assume they are good at hiding the fact. Whatever it takes to hide it. Or the templars have the order to for some reason leave Hawke and her friends alone. Which surfaces in act3 a couple of times. I go full aggro on Meredith and she just warns Hawke and Anders but also says Anders is lucky that he is Hawke's friend. For some reason Hawke is an exception and immune. I am thinking maybe the story doesn't transport well how important and how popular Hawke is in Kirkwall. Which is a shame because I think Hawke does have alot of admirers and supporters from Darktown to High Town.

[yangthecat]

Aldandil wrote...

I think it's one part "Separate game play from story" and one part "We'd rather not get into that" from the writers. If you're a mage, it's made clear by the time of the Qunari attack that Meredith knows you're a mage, but chooses not to act. Add your own reasons as to why.

It was the same in DA:O with your outlawed wardens. You could walk around in Denerim openly and no one cared.
If Goldana were smarter,  she could have threatened to turn your Warden and Alistair in if you didn't pay her, lol.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Varric's paying them off the whole time?

"Oh, hey, Cullen.  Yeah, I'm perfectly normal."
*Uneasily shifts skull-topped staff onto other robe-covered shoulder while standing on frozen remains.* 

[AlexXIV]

yangthecat wrote...

Aldandil wrote...

I think it's one part "Separate game play from story" and one part "We'd rather not get into that" from the writers. If you're a mage, it's made clear by the time of the Qunari attack that Meredith knows you're a mage, but chooses not to act. Add your own reasons as to why.

It was the same in DA:O with your outlawed wardens. You could walk around in Denerim openly and no one cared.
If Goldana were smarter,  she could have threatened to turn your Warden and Alistair in if you didn't pay her, lol.

I think there was even an option in DA:O to tell Knight Commander Gregoire that you are bloodmage, which resulted in a fight where Gregoir and Cullen were killed. But they took it out and now it only appears in with a 'restored content' mod. I think the simple reason is that if they addressed this in-game it would get too complicated. If you went bloodmage in act1 and someone saw you using it, it would basically be end of the game. Because there is no way anyone is letting a known bloodmage running around freely.

Same with DA:O. If you were a bloodmage and killed the templars at the circle then the fact that you are a warden in a blight couldn't save you from the wrath of the templars and chantry. Latest after slaying the Archdemon they'd get you.

[GeorgeZip]

Most of the street fighting takes place at night when criminals rule the city apparently. I guess it's too dangerous for the city guard and it's not the Templars responsibility. So it's umm possible that your constant use of magic could go unnoticed. But yeah, they could have done better at addressing this. They could have had Cullen protecting you by destroying arrest warrants or something.

[Psycoman2]

I played through as a warrior first and i assumed that Anders and Merrill were know about by the end of act 2 but Meredith did not act against them for fear of angering me. The influence and respect you command at the beginning of act 3 is enormous and she does not want to make you an enemy if she can avoid it.

I'm considering being a mage for my second play through and playing as anti mage as possible just to see if there is any hilarious dialog that results.

Modifié par Psycoman2, 25 mars 2011 - 01:41 .

[Nerevar-as]

AlexXIV wrote...

I think there was even an option in DA:O to tell Knight Commander Gregoire that you are bloodmage, which resulted in a fight where Gregoir and Cullen were killed. But they took it out and now it only appears in with a 'restored content' mod. I think the simple reason is that if they addressed this in-game it would get too complicated. If you went bloodmage in act1 and someone saw you using it, it would basically be end of the game. Because there is no way anyone is letting a known bloodmage running around freely.

Same with DA:O. If you were a bloodmage and killed the templars at the circle then the fact that you are a warden in a blight couldn't save you from the wrath of the templars and chantry. Latest after slaying the Archdemon they'd get you.

I think it was explained GW were both outside Templar law and that they allowed BM (Soldier´s Peak), which makes sense when your ONLY enemy can destroy the world. I guess using it against anything else would get them in trouble, but not if they are keeping to their own bussiness. If templars attack then they are in the way of you stopping the Blight and are the enemy. Better go to the Anderfells as soon as AD is dead however.

DA2 is the gameplay-story segregation issue. However is one of the most jarring instances I´ve seen. We were told Hawke´s story wouldn´t have worked with a non human (and I just fail to see how it couldn´t), yet we are to believe an apostate publicly using magic again and again has no trouble.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 25 mars 2011 - 02:17 .