145 réponses à ce sujet

[Tom Jolly]

JamieCOTC wrote...

So the game would be more fun - http://social.biowar...1/index/6716182

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main
character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars.
How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up
perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these
cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is
someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture
him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain
crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance.

Bravo, excellent damage control.   Right...they neglected to confront the issue for the sake of FUN.  How challenging would it have been to produce a few dialogue trees on the subject?  I clearly immersion (fun) was lower on the list than meeting the release deadline.

[Zigabogado]

@Romantiq Bioware 'dun goofed, you mean.
Anywho,
There is no real reason to think that Bioware is making sense anymore. I doubt anyone would want to spend the 50 hour gameplay sitting in the gallows doing nothing.

[Drake Sigar]

It’s not as if Origins didn’t get involved in these shenanigans either. Hundreds of fights splattered in darkspawn blood, and nobody gets infected? Why are people talking to your character as if he isn’t decorated with blood from head to toe? Frankly it all makes less sense than the typical Power Rangers episode which sees the city destroyed and rebuilt without anyone noticing. Though this new development is odd to say the least.

I figured having a mage family member was a strategic move designed to draw you into this mages vs templars conflict. Guess it got cut out due to time constraints.

Modifié par Drake Sigar, 25 mars 2011 - 04:10 .

[JamieCOTC]

Tom Jolly wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

So the game would be more fun - http://social.biowar...1/index/6716182

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main
character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars.
How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up
perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these
cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is
someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture
him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain
crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance.

Bravo, excellent damage control.   Right...they neglected to confront the issue for the sake of FUN.  How challenging would it have been to produce a few dialogue trees on the subject?  I clearly immersion (fun) was lower on the list than meeting the release deadline.

Well, I imagine that EA breathing down their necks didn't help either. 

[Scnew]

Does anything even happen if you play as a mage that supports the templars all the time? "I'm an apostate too, but you mages have to go back to the Circle. Just you though. I'm going to go search your cave for crafting supplies."

[Annie_Dear]

To be fair, no templar in Origins ever asked about Morrigan.

[ColaQueen]

Annie_Dear wrote...

To be fair, no templar in Origins ever asked about Morrigan.

This. Only once do you get approached about her and nothing comes of it.

Would you all prefer if they took the option of playing a mage away, or would your rather spend every minute fighting off templars to the point where you can't do anything else because everyone recognizes you're an apostate and so are some of your companions?

[abaris]

JamieCOTC wrote...

So the game would be more fun - http://social.biowar...1/index/6716182

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main
character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars.
How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up
perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these
cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is
someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture
him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain
crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance.

Wow, never thought, this would be genuine.

Sometimes I get the feeling, they either code for people not having a brain, or those reluctant to employ it. It obviously never occured to them, that logic might be needed, since it would take out the fun of being mindless "button awsome".

[Guldor]

JamieCOTC wrote...

So the game would be more fun - http://social.biowar...1/index/6716182

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main
character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars.
How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up
perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these
cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is
someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture
him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain
crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance.

sacrifice logic for fun?  There is a difference between logic and realism. Its not logic that superman flies, but its realistic when you know the sun gives him this abilit because of where he comes from.

You didnt sacrifice logic, you sacrificed realism. Once a game is not realistic, and of all games an RPG!!, then you might as well throw it in the garbage. Or trade it in at a game store for a better one.

EDITED: Oh and Mr Gaider do u see that everyday criminals being left to do whatever they want in the streets because there help is greatly needed? Once it stops being realistic(or even logic if you want) then it loses its fun.

Modifié par Guldor, 25 mars 2011 - 05:07 .

[MonkeyLungs]

JamieCOTC wrote...

So the game would be more fun - http://social.biowar...1/index/6716182

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main
character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars.
How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up
perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these
cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is
someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture
him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain
crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance.

Except that their solution is not more fun, its more lazy and nonsensical.

[MonkeyLungs]

Drake Sigar wrote...

It’s not as if Origins didn’t get involved in these shenanigans either. Hundreds of fights splattered in darkspawn blood, and nobody gets infected? Why are people talking to your character as if he isn’t decorated with blood from head to toe? Frankly it all makes less sense than the typical Power Rangers episode which sees the city destroyed and rebuilt without anyone noticing. Though this new development is odd to say the least.

I figured having a mage family member was a strategic move designed to draw you into this mages vs templars conflict. Guess it got cut out due to time constraints.

Does it matter if Origins did it badly as well? This is the evolution right? BTW I agree with you just trying to further illustrate your point.

Modifié par MonkeyLungs, 25 mars 2011 - 05:17 .

[The Morrigan]

On the whole I thought it was explained reasonably, though considering that the mages vs templars issue was the main plot, it is a bit odd that your apostate status doesn't come up more. A side quest involving Hawke's capture and escape from the Gallows would have been awesome.

Romantiq wrote...

I had a similar thread earlier. The time you "save" Knight-Captain Cullen as a mage, he doesn't even realize that you're a freaking mage. Complete BS.

BioWare you officially screwed up.

Yeah, I was willing to go with the idea that Hawke was protected by certain individuals or her own status (as noble and the champion), but this quest made me stop and shriek at my monitor. Knight-Captain Cullen, the man who has come to rabidly distrust mages, let alone apostates, thanks to what happened in the Circle in DAO, just watched Hawke immolate several demons by raining fire from the sky. And he didn't say anything about it. Not a single word.

"Please don't blood magic my mind Serrah Hawke! I promise I won't talk! Aiiieee!"

[DirtyFinger]

JamieCOTC wrote...

So the game would be more fun - http://social.biowar...1/index/6716182

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main
character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars.
How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up
perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these
cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is
someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture
him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain
crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance.

that answer was the most stupid piece of crap I've read yet°, given that the guy who said that actually meant it.
however, the dick who said that also designed the dungeon and overland maps .... ALL TWO OF THEM, so we get an idea of the level of diligence and intelligence involved in the design process.


° not your post, JamieCOTC. The stuff from the guy you quoted.

[Vosoros]

Seems to me that some folk revel in being deliberatly obtuse spell-casters in front of the templars (esp in the Gallows) just so they can whine about such tedious things.

Not all folks in robes are mages...nor all who carry staffs. Think of Aldos in the Cousland library in Origins. And then you have circle mages who work in the outside world. How do you distinguish an apostate from a legitimate circle mage? And by the time you could say there's no longer any doubt for Hawke in DA2...he's gotten the wealth (noted in the story) to keep the templars at bay.

I don't see any real failure on the developers side...but I do see possible means to crusify prats casting fireballs in the likes of the Gallows -- some of which have been suggested above!

[iTIMMEH]

SilverSentinel wrote...

Annie_Dear wrote...

To be fair, no templar in Origins ever asked about Morrigan.

This. Only once do you get approached about her and nothing comes of it.

Would you all prefer if they took the option of playing a mage away, or would your rather spend every minute fighting off templars to the point where you can't do anything else because everyone recognizes you're an apostate and so are some of your companions?

In Origins, you are a Grey warden, part of an organisation dedicated to protecting the world from the Blight. Everyone knows this. The Grey Wardens also have the right of conscription, I think it is reasonable to assume people think that your companions are somewhat untouchable. Dragon Age II also states that the circle and templars in Ferelden are more accomodating than Kirkwall's.

In Dragon Age II you arrive in Kirkwall a penniless nobody. There is a great deal of tension between the mages and templars, and the templars exercise far more control over mages, with dissent being routinely crushed.

Throwing the your own lore in the bin when it becomes inconvenient is a dangerous path to tread for a company that sells games partly on the strength of their writing.

[Tom Jolly]

Annie_Dear wrote...

To be fair, no templar in Origins ever asked about Morrigan.

untrue.   There is special dialouge from a Templar in the Lothering Chantry, and at the small port town outside of the Circle Tower.   Yes, that was off the top of my head. 

Modifié par Tom Jolly, 25 mars 2011 - 05:49 .

[MonkeyLungs]

iTIMMEH wrote...

Throwing the your own lore in the bin when it becomes inconvenient is a dangerous path to tread for a company that sells games partly on the strength of their writing.

Unfortunately I don't think most people will even understand what that statement really means.

[88mphSlayer]

Moondoggie wrote...

Because you are the games protagonist. It wouldn't be much of a game if after entering Kirkwall you are forced to go to the tower where you can't leave ever XD

actually it'd be cool if the game had its own version of "origin stories" where depending on what class you pick you get a different first year in Kirkwall, all the origins stories you're doing everybody's dirty work but if you're a mage you get imprisoned by the templars and do their dirty work (thus becoming an exception to the rule), if you're a warrior you're forced to join the guards and do their dirty work, if you're a rogue you join smugglers, etc.

which is why them skipping over the first year in Kirkwall seemed like a lost opportunity on roleplaying the story

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 25 mars 2011 - 05:49 .

[Vosoros]

SOLUTION: Punish the twerps who use magic in frot of templars and praise the apostate for remaining under the raidar...or as Bethany once pointed out (knowing who's who so you know when to run and hide). You could also argue that it's prudent to see a Templar comming and turn around and drop down a side passage in town to keep from teir notice.

Simply punish the prats playing and mage and praise the mage-minded folks for staying below the radar at apt points. It also speaks to my feelings for the need of a staff fighting tree for when Templars may be watching...as per my DA3 solutions post!

[Obro]

Because plot holes.Pure and simple. Don't even try to justify it.Because you cant,

[MonkeyLungs]

88MPHSlayer and Vosoros:

Both of those ideas sound fun. They also add to the gameplay and add to the role play.

It is entirely disengenuous to say that the conflict is ignored 'for fun' and anyone who believes that is likely very gullible. It is ignored because it is WAY EASIER to ignore it than to address it in gameplay terms.

[My name is Sam]

Vosoros wrote...

Seems to me that some folk revel in being deliberatly obtuse spell-casters in front of the templars (esp in the Gallows) just so they can whine about such tedious things.

Not all folks in robes are mages...nor all who carry staffs. Think of Aldos in the Cousland library in Origins. And then you have circle mages who work in the outside world. How do you distinguish an apostate from a legitimate circle mage? And by the time you could say there's no longer any doubt for Hawke in DA2...he's gotten the wealth (noted in the story) to keep the templars at bay.

I don't see any real failure on the developers side...but I do see possible means to crusify prats casting fireballs in the likes of the Gallows -- some of which have been suggested above!

The fact is, when you set up a conflict such as the one with the Templars and the Mages, and then you ignore the fact that there is a conflict in occurance, it takes away from the immersion.

[F-C]

just a couple things:

in DAO you were a grey warden, and for all intents and purposes you worked outside of the law.
at several points its mentioned how grey wardens do not answer to the chantry or anyone else, they are not forbidden from magic, and even blood magic is allowed.

so referencing DAO is just kind of dumb. its like you want to ignore the story so you can argue on the forum or something.

any magic use in DAO is always easily dismissed as "hes a grey warden, him and his companions are above the law"




in DA2 though its just ridiculous.

you arrive at kirkwall and the first guard tells you all mages are imprisoned in the gallows.
you go to the second guard and have a fight involving magic right in the middle of the courtyard.

noone cares.

derp.


hawke is just some poor beggar refugee... he is not a grey warden who is beyond the reach of the law... hes just some bum on the street.

there is no justification at all, they just didnt care enough about it.



however... the opening sequence has so much dialogue in it and thats one of the only action sequences stuck in the middle... so from that aspect im glad its there, but they could have done something to have it make sense.... such as have the guard freak out and cause you to hide.... then gamlens contact bribes him to keep quiet.

it really would not have been hard.

[Rock Mu]

JamieCOTC wrote...

So the game would be more fun - http://social.biowar...1/index/6716182

Q: Blood Magic is a forbidden art in the world of DA2, but the main
character uses it freely during the game against civilians and Templars.
How is that logical?

A: Well, sometimes you have to give up
perfect inner logic to make the game more fun. This is one of these
cases. Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is
someone who can do whatever he wants. No one is bold enough to lecture
him about that. This is kind of like when the authorities ignore certain
crimes because the criminal's aid is of great importance.

It's still the most ridiculous plot hole in the game by far.

"Anyway, this can be explained by the fact that the champion is someone who can do whatever he wants."

Except for the fact that you're only "The Champion" for the last few hours of the game.

But whatever... I enjoyed the game for the most part (it was in no way worth 60 bucks to me though), but it's obviously a rushed (and somewhat lazy overall) product. Anyone who argues otherwise is just delusional.