39 réponses à ce sujet

[Jassper]

KenKenpachi wrote...

Life is not very logical...never has been, never will be. There is Chaos, and mistrust, those can throw logic of every sort out of a window. Not too mention logic can be fixed to ones point of view if he has the gift of a silver tongue.

Boy isn’t that the truth.

[Jassper]

I can't delete this

Modifié par Jassper, 25 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[Taura-Tierno]

Ealos wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

The thing with the mages is, that yes, they're corrupt. But is that corruption inherent? Or is the concentration of blood mages higher in Kirkwall than in Ferelden (what we saw at least) because of Meredith? Did her zealous and fanatic attitude actually cause the mages to turn to blood magic?

If you collect the "Enigma of Kirkwall" codex entries you discover that in ancient times Emerius was the centre of a secret base of arcane research. In the lower reaches of the city, the veil is so thin that demons can communicate with non-mages - that influence of the fade is why modern Kirkwall has double the number of malificarum in Starkhaven. And then you have Meredith... not a good place to be a mage.

Ah, I see. So Kirkwall really isn't an ideal place to house a Circle to begin with.

[CakesOnAPlane]

Isabela never goes into the Qunari camp so they dont really have a chance to find her let alone catch her.

Also the Qunari are quite set in 'roles' - it is the Arishok's duty to find the relic, and as part of their sense of honour I think he can't ask another to do it for him (just an idea after "The Lost Patrol" sidequest in which you do the Qunari's duty so he gives you the reward)

As for Fenris I agree, he's really stubborn - I usually end up mid-friend/rival since I always agree on some things then disagree on others.

[Torax]

Basically Kirkwall was a hot bed asking for trouble. Add some of the Order going to extremes (Some far enough to have Cullen even question what the Order stands for) you are just asking for bad things to happen. The Champion isn't truly innocent in it all. If Hawke never came to Kirkwall, would the idol have ever landed in the hands of Meredith? Would there been as much hope for Orsino that he could stand up to someone like Meredith in the first place? It goes on an on. Why Varric told Cassandra how he wouldn't exactly call the Champion innocent.

If you treat them like criminals? Lock them up because you fear them? Threaten them with basically Tranquility or death? There was an extremist in Alrik but there did seem to be complaints in regards to a more wide spread use of Tranquility. Tranquility was supposed to be a mercy for those who feared to go through their harrowing and occasionally for someone who seemed to not be able to resist the demons. It seemed quite implied that Tranquility was used excessively and since so many see it as murder, the mages of the circle start to see it as life or death. Meredith seemed to latter over even tranquility by the end.

Now you have basically the magi being pushed to a corner of fear and hate. A mage is used to being hated and feared by normal people but the Circle is supposed to not only protect the people outside but also protect the mages from the outside world. The Circle in Kirkwall was not really a haven for them at all unlike other places such as Fereldon. That was also an old Tevinter Tower btw.

Can you sympathies with those using blood magic to power their life or death fight? Not really. But I will help all the others who refused to do such a thing but would be murdered by a vengeful hate monger who only sees blood magic everywhere she looks.


Edited to add;

The Arishok is a very important individual. Basically their Millitary Leader of all fo the Qunari. It was stolen under his command of their forces. Would you expect such a commander to then randomly expect a stranger to understand such things? They are hard headed and tend to see those outside the Qun as inferior or uninformed. One of the parts I'm more surprised about them not mentioning is if a female hawke was a warrior or rogue. I'd have at least expected the Arishok to be impressed by her actions more than a male. Or at least far more confused by it.

Modifié par Torax, 25 mars 2011 - 07:56 .

[LobselVith8]

Jassper wrote...

I also don't understand why every mage is a blood mage or possessed. They make it really hard to side with the Mages as it does seem they are dammed.

I don't think every mage we meet is possessed or a blood mage. We meet Anders' friend Karl Thekla, who was made tranquil and begs to be killed rather than live as a "templar puppet." We hear a conversation at the Gallows between a tranquil mage and her "companion," who she no longer remembers, and tells him that she can only be commanded by Knight-Captain Cullen. We meet the Qunari mage Ketojan, who is considered "Saarebas," and is treated like an animal instead of a person. We meet the Orlesian noble Emile de Launcet, who only wants to be with a woman for the first time. We encounter Feynriel, who is simply a young man trying to get a handle on his abilities, and we later encounter templars who tortured a member of the Dalish clan trying to get to him (and who will try to murder the Dalish hunters in an attempt to get at Feynriel). There's the mage Ella, who only wanted to meet her family (and is going to be made tranquil and raped until Hawke and Anders intervene). Even the mages who Hawke can help protect if he sides with the Kirkwall Circle against the templars aren't all evil, as we encounter mages fighting against templars (without using blood magic or turning into abominations) and we learn many mages escape to tell the other Circles about Hawke proving that "the mighty templars could be defied."

What can be argued is whether the harsh conditions of the Gallows and the policies of Knight-Commander Meredith helped create the situation we find - of blood mages and abominations. We know Ser Alrik has been raping mages and turning them tranquil. During the quest "On the Loose," we encounter two mages - Huon and Evelina - who were sane before they were sent to the Gallows Prison, and were insane when they escaped (and one of them grew up in the Ferelden Circle). Alain is a mage who was raped after he voluntarily went back to the Circle, and it likely contributed to his decision to turn to blood magic and side with Grace when he initially left Decimus because he abhored blood magic. There's the mage in "Act of Mercy" (I believe her name is Teri) who writes and advises Hawke to seek out the Underground Railroad with Mistress Selby. We also have a counterpoint to the idea of "bad blood mages" with Merrill, who uses blood magic and is only focused on helping her people.

[Bonus Pretzel]

Torax wrote...


Edited to add;

The Arishok is a very important individual. Basically their Millitary Leader of all fo the Qunari. It was stolen under his command of their forces. Would you expect such a commander to then randomly expect a stranger to understand such things? They are hard headed and tend to see those outside the Qun as inferior or uninformed. One of the parts I'm more surprised about them not mentioning is if a female hawke was a warrior or rogue. I'd have at least expected the Arishok to be impressed by her actions more than a male. Or at least far more confused by it.

I was wondering this as well. In Dragon Age Orgins, if you are female, Sten has great difficulty grasping the concept of a female soldier. He says something along the lines of "You are female...but you are also a warrior. You cannot be both." If you disagreed with him you even lost approval points. Granted, he acknowledges you later one, but the Arishok didn't seem concerned with Hawke being female from the start, despite remarking she was at least someone of worth.

[Torax]

Bonus Pretzel wrote...

Torax wrote...


Edited to add;

The Arishok is a very important individual. Basically their Millitary Leader of all fo the Qunari. It was stolen under his command of their forces. Would you expect such a commander to then randomly expect a stranger to understand such things? They are hard headed and tend to see those outside the Qun as inferior or uninformed. One of the parts I'm more surprised about them not mentioning is if a female hawke was a warrior or rogue. I'd have at least expected the Arishok to be impressed by her actions more than a male. Or at least far more confused by it.

I was wondering this as well. In Dragon Age Orgins, if you are female, Sten has great difficulty grasping the concept of a female soldier. He says something along the lines of "You are female...but you are also a warrior. You cannot be both." If you disagreed with him you even lost approval points. Granted, he acknowledges you later one, but the Arishok didn't seem concerned with Hawke being female from the start, despite remarking she was at least someone of worth.

You are supposed to disagree with him. The thing about Sten is how you argue with him. You have to challenge him in the conversations or he will not respect you. You just picked the wrong response. Sten respects the Warden when they stand up for what they believe. He doesn't have to agree with them. But Sten's picking at the Warden is more about trying to decide what good their race is for. Sten chose the Warden as his test subject and if you respond properly he'll supposedly return to the Arishok and say how not all humans are helpless and weak.

That is an aside to the conversation at hand of logic of course. I knew something was up when Isabela kept leaving the party but it is scripted like that on purpose. There is the main reason the story feels more disjointed to me. ME2 had scripted points but they were just where you were forced to go somewhere cause the Illusive Man demands you go there. In DA2 there is far too much that is scripted to happen a certain way. Grace, Sibling fates and so on.

Even those scripted points such as the Qunari book all scream to the player, "I could have prevented that!". They even tease you by letting you kind of decide just a rare few things, like if your sibling dies, joins the wardens or to their corresponding faction. But a lot more of it doesn't matter. Even saying no to Sister Patrice means you still have to do the escort...

Simply I'd rather they just stuck to some long going plot instead of little ones that are too tied to my character. There is too much that Hawke could have prevented. The only one they did right in my mind was not knowing until later that the idol ended up in the hands of Meredith. It's bad enough that the whole killer story always rests on you. Aveline being this great guard captain wouldn't even take responsibility for not doing the investigation on her watch instead of leaving to some lone Templar...

A game of lack of logic and blindness that forces these terrible events in the life of your PC. It's adversity and sure that does make a hero. Just it feels too forced on the PC than just happenstance plot to me.

Modifié par Torax, 25 mars 2011 - 11:35 .

[Xewaka]

Vhalkyrie wrote...
Every mage doesn't become an abomination.  Bethany doesn't.  Anders doesn't.  While Anders does something else completely appalling, he might have been able to achieve the same effect by becoming a blood mage, but he didn't.

That might be because he already is an abomination when you recruit him.

[Jassper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think every mage we meet is possessed or a blood mage. ...

I know not every mage is - yet But the game don't go long enough to find out if they ever become one. The question is - will they at some point in life, become an abomination. Everything so fare points to yes. Magic is the bridge to allow easy possession.

In other fantasy games types there is usually a struggle between good and evil and the player and people of the world are the pawns. However something unique about DA is that it seems the "good" is gone and only influences us as "The Maker". The struggle is between the people and evil as the gods rarely - if at all - interfere. There really isn't any evidance of good gods at all, just deamons. Other than the spirts that posses Anders and the one in DAO that was possesing <don't remember her name>. There is nothing that suggest anything other than deamons.

What can be argued is whether the harsh conditions of the Gallows and the policies of Knight-Commander Meredith helped create the situation we find - of blood mages and abominations.....

I defiantly don't agree with the methods of the Templar’s and they are very close to slave drivers and need to be stopped - However, using them as a reason why mages turn to blood magic I feel is nothing more than a "point the finger" excuse to lay blame and does nothing but prove the Templar’s point.


Decisions decisions. lol
I guess I will just have to play the game twice so I can satisfy my desire to help the mages - and also to contain the "problem" by helping the Templar’s. There is no right or wrong answer me thinks.

Modifié par Jassper, 26 mars 2011 - 07:38 .

[Sarah1281]

Xewaka wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...
Every mage doesn't become an abomination.  Bethany doesn't.  Anders doesn't.  While Anders does something else completely appalling, he might have been able to achieve the same effect by becoming a blood mage, but he didn't.

That might be because he already is an abomination when you recruit him.

Good point.

[Rhys1984]

Depends on the type of spirit and the type of person. Demons are spirits that thrive on the sins of mortals, and they love to get over to our side of the metaphysical fence to create havok, they are the first to bite at a mage who is wanting more power or in dire stressful circumstances. Annoyingly when you combine one of these spirits with a desperate or greedy person you get an abomination.

IF you have a different spirit combined with a person in different circumstances, then you get something similiar to Wynne or Anders, a melding of two entities, Anders more welded together than Wynne, seemed to be more of a symbiosis for Anders and a caring relationship guardian angel relationship for Wynne.

Remember, they're only an abomination when they lose their humanity. That said, how much humanity is left when you mesh whole heartedly with a spirit of pure ideal.

[cinderburster]

Jassper wrote...
After finishing Fenris quest and kill his master I got 15 rival points - WTF? I can only assume it was because I told him to let his sister live. But still he seems like an ungratfull little ******.

If you were already on the rivalry path, that's probably why you got the points, but I can't say for certain.  By the time I get to that point in the game I always already have him maxed out on whichever path I've decided to take.

As for being ungrateful, well, maybe a bit.  But he really, really wanted to hurt her, and who doesn't get a little pissed at the voice of reason sometimes?

[Arppis]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Jassper wrote...

I also don't understand why every mage is a blood mage or possessed. They make it really hard to side with the Mages as it does seem they are dammed.

It's not supposed to be a clearcut, easy decision, black or white.  The Templars are corrupt.  The Mages are corrupt.  Meredith is too draconian.  Orsino is too soft.  Kirkwall is a really messed up, mismanaged place.  So chose a side.  They are both right, and wrong.

Then why can't I just slay them all and leave as hero?

[bill4747bill]

Arppis wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Jassper wrote...

I also don't understand why every mage is a blood mage or possessed. They make it really hard to side with the Mages as it does seem they are dammed.

It's not supposed to be a clearcut, easy decision, black or white.  The Templars are corrupt.  The Mages are corrupt.  Meredith is too draconian.  Orsino is too soft.  Kirkwall is a really messed up, mismanaged place.  So chose a side.  They are both right, and wrong.

Then why can't I just slay them all and leave as hero?

 if you killed all of them the people would not see you as a hero, more as butcher.

you can't just leave because kirkwall is your home.


that's how i saw it anyway.

Modifié par bill4747bill, 27 mars 2011 - 10:47 .