264 réponses à ce sujet

[Bovinian King]

I mean, I did like him up until he killed Ser Jory.  Jory was only wanting his family to be protected in the world and when he brought his sword out, it was likely only as a deterrent, to stop Duncan from forcing the blood or attacking Jory. 

It was completely unnecessary to kill Jory, one can see from his body language that he wasn't meaning unsheathing his sword to be a threatening gesture, he seemed nervous and scared, not hostile or angry and he only began swinging when Duncan provoked him!

Either way, it was just a jerk move on his part.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jory not only drew his blade out, he also striked first. Serves him right.



Grey WArdens do not recruit. They conscript. In a time of war, deserters are shot dead.

[Taleroth]

There's a few others with you, myself included.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jory not only drew his blade out, he also striked first.

No he didn't.

In a time of war, deserters are shot dead.

No, they're put in cages first.  As evidenced by the other deserter.

Modifié par Taleroth, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Taleroth wrote...

There's a few others with you, myself included.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Jory not only drew his blade out, he also striked first.

No he didn't.

In a time of war, deserters are shot dead.

No, they're put in cages first.  As evidenced by the other deserter.

Yes he did, watch it again. Jory drew his sword out. Duncan did the same. Duncan approached Jory. Jory strikes with the blade, Duncan easily deflected it and killed him.

That deserter was going to get hanged anyways. So you would have preferred to put Jory in a cage then kill him?
Grey wArdens do not have the luxury of time, or cages.

[oulzac]

I think Jory was saved from a humiliating death of being a deserter.

They knew, as explained, there was no turning back once they were where they were. It was a point of no return. They had already accepted this, and then after it was too late he tried to change his mind. If you remember, during a dialog option right before that, if you say, lets get this over with, he then says, I agree, lets just get it done. And then he goes all yellow.

[Taleroth]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes he did, watch it again. Jory drew his sword out. Duncan did the same. Duncan approached Jory. Jory strikes with the blade, Duncan easily deflected it and killed him.

I've watched it several times.  What you claim is not what happened.

That deserter was going to get hanged anyways. So you would have preferred to put Jory in a cage then kill him?

Yes.

Grey wArdens do not have the luxury of time, or cages.

Do you think that sounds "cool?"  Because what you just said is meaningless.  There are cages barely a few meters away.  And there's no excess amount of extra time required.  Certainly no more than leaving him a cage to be handled by the army.  Certainly no more than there is in disposing of bodies.

[Flamin Jesus]

Not to mention that "Hey, by the way, if you sign up with us we unfortunately have to put you through a ritual that might well kill you." is sort of a mouthful to put on a recruiting poster, they have damn good reasons to keep the ritual secret, Jory, simply put, knew too much for his own good, he was warned before, he signed up anyway, he tried to back out the moment it was too late.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Taleroth wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes he did, watch it again. Jory drew his sword out. Duncan did the same. Duncan approached Jory. Jory strikes with the blade, Duncan easily deflected it and killed him.

I've watched it several times.  What you claim is not what happened.

That deserter was going to get hanged anyways. So you would have preferred to put Jory in a cage then kill him?

Yes.

Grey wArdens do not have the luxury of time, or cages.

Do you think that sounds "cool?"  Because what you just said is meaningless.  There are cages barely a few meters away.  And there's no excess amount of extra time required.  Certainly no more than leaving him a cage to be handled by the army.  Certainly no more than there is in disposing of bodies.

Then start a new game, and watch carefully. I wish I could find a video somewhere yto show you.

A Grey wArden deserter is delt with by the Grey Wardens and not by the army.
There is no difference between caging him, then hanging him. And between killing him outright, especially since he drew his sword out (aka was asking for it).

EDIT:
Jory clearly attacked first. And ignore the stupid voices in the vid.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:46 .

[Red Viking]

The thing is, The Joining has to be kept secret because if people knew that it could possibly kill you, no one would want to join The Grey Wardens, which would be bad since they're the only ones who can stop a Blight.

[Taleroth]

Red Viking wrote...

The thing is, The Joining has to be kept secret because if people knew that it could possibly kill you, no one would want to join The Grey Wardens, which would be bad since they're the only ones who can stop a Blight.

If there were any truth to this claim, then the Grey Wardens would be faced with repeated internal rebellions of people bitter about being forced into it against their wills, which would include the spilling of their secret.

The fact that it hasn't sincerely implies that people are quite capable of seeing the necessity they present.

Modifié par Taleroth, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:47 .

[The Angry One]

Secret or not, Jory drew steel against his commanding officer.

That makes him a deserter and a traitor. Even today, treason is an executable offense. Secret or no, Jory got what was coming to him.



And this is coming from someone who liked Jory. He wasn't a bad man or a bad character, but he panicked and made an idiotic mistake.

[Rattleface]

So instead of subduing him [Duncan showed more than enough finesse to do this], he killed him?

The idiot was asking for it, sure, but he was also hysterical and probably could have been reasoned with.

I'm not saying Duncan is the bad guy, but it was a dick thing to do and pretty rash for someone like him.

[The Angry One]

Taleroth wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

The thing is, The Joining has to be kept secret because if people knew that it could possibly kill you, no one would want to join The Grey Wardens, which would be bad since they're the only ones who can stop a Blight.

If there were any truth to this claim, then the Grey Wardens would be faced with repeated internal rebellions, which would include the spilling of their secret.

The sort of people who survive the Joining are the sort of people who understand why it must be a secret.

[The Angry One]

Rattleface wrote...

So instead of subduing him [Duncan showed more than enough finesse to do this], he killed him?
The idiot was asking for it, sure, but he was also hysterical and probably could have been reasoned with.
I'm not saying Duncan is the bad guy, but it was a dick thing to do and pretty rash for someone like him.

And just how do you subdue a large armoured knight who's consumed by panic?
Yes, maybe given enough effort you could but Duncan had neither the time nor the inclination to babysit Jory. He was warned that there was danger and there was no turning back after all.

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

The thing is, The Joining has to be kept secret because if people knew that it could possibly kill you, no one would want to join The Grey Wardens, which would be bad since they're the only ones who can stop a Blight.

If there were any truth to this claim, then the Grey Wardens would be faced with repeated internal rebellions, which would include the spilling of their secret.

The sort of people who survive the Joining are the sort of people who understand why it must be a secret.

Isn't that circular?

Nobody would join!
If that were true, then there would be rebellion.
Those who join understand !

Then why wouldn't they join anyway, even if the truth was known?  You'd basically be cutting outall the people who wouldn't understand early.

It's fairly binary.  Either someone understands or they don't.
If the only people to survive are the ones who understand, then the secret has no need to be secret, because these same people would join.
If people could survive who didn't understand, then the secret would be ultimately revealed by them in their inevitable rebellions.

Modifié par Taleroth, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:52 .

[Wissenschaft]

Taleroth wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes he did, watch it again. Jory drew his sword out. Duncan did the same. Duncan approached Jory. Jory strikes with the blade, Duncan easily deflected it and killed him.

I've watched it several times.  What you claim is not what happened.

I have to agree with KnightofPhoenix, its pretty clear Jory struck first. Ask Duncan afterwards and thats exactly what Duncan says, Sir Jory forced his hand when he pulled out his weapon and struck first.

Duncan also says joining the grey wardens is not a charity. One way or the other, you will be sacrifing your life when you join. Sir Jory just ended up paying his price early.

[Reiella]

The Angry One wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

The thing is, The Joining has to be kept secret because if people knew that it could possibly kill you, no one would want to join The Grey Wardens, which would be bad since they're the only ones who can stop a Blight.

If there were any truth to this claim, then the Grey Wardens would be faced with repeated internal rebellions, which would include the spilling of their secret.

The sort of people who survive the Joining are the sort of people who understand why it must be a secret.

Same sort of folks who understand that you gotta keep the secret that you worship the living Andraste, others just wouldn't understand.  And that secret must be maintained, no matter the cost.

[Taleroth]

Wissenschaft wrote...

I have to agree with KnightofPhoenix, its pretty clear Jory struck first. Ask Duncan afterwards and thats exactly what Duncan says, Sir Jory forced his hand when he pulled out his weapon and struck first.

I did ask Duncan.  Duncan says he knew he had to when Jory pulled out his weapon, he does not claim that Jory struck.

[SonvarTheMighty]

It's a secret ritual so I don't think a cage is what I'd want to use. Jory had his chances to leave since he was already unsure of what he was doing but he waited too long. As soon as he refused to drink the blood there wasn't much of an option. And KnightofPhoenix is right Jory does make the first swing you can see it here http://www.youtube.c.../21/9ZYnUzh-DcA at 9:24 the scene starts with Duncan asking Jory to drink

[Rattleface]

The Angry One wrote...

Rattleface wrote...



So instead of subduing him [Duncan showed more than enough finesse to do this], he killed him?

The idiot was asking for it, sure, but he was also hysterical and probably could have been reasoned with.

I'm not saying Duncan is the bad guy, but it was a dick thing to do and pretty rash for someone like him.

And just how do you subdue a large armoured knight who's consumed by panic?

Yes, maybe given enough effort you could but Duncan had neither the time nor the inclination to babysit Jory. He was warned that there was danger and there was no turning back after all.

Easily. Lack of armor around your neck and head doesn't protect against choking someone out or just plain bashing them with the pommel of your weapon. I mean hell, Jory swung that thing like he was in slow-mo, or he wasn't even trying to harm Duncan in the first place.



But bah, you win, Duncan was right. I'm simply saying that Jory didn't deserve a stab to the gut over it imo.

[PDXGamerGirl]

I think it was meant to be a significant plot point that easily explains why you, the next to drink, drinks.

Honestly, the only PC I've had that has any real pressing motivation to become a Grey Warden was my Dalish elf (as he was otherwise dying anyway).  If you saw someone murdered for not drinking, well, you're going to take the only chance you have to live by going through the ritual.

I thought it was a brutal moment and the first real "oh, wow" moment for me that showed exactly the kind of game I bought.  I thought it was great and understood Duncan's motivation for doing so, no matter who drew first; that's just the kind of world these characters live in.

[Wissenschaft]

You could try to subdue someone in a fight but the tricky thing about real life is that any fight can get you killed. If someone pulls a gun out its more likely a commanding officer will just kill them then risk subduing. No difference with a sword wielded by a skilled warrior that won a grand melee, which Sir Jory says he did to join.



Alistior says it himself when you ask him if Grey Wardens are something like honorable Knights. Not exactly since Grey Warden will do whatever it takes to win. That involves a lot of underhanded tactics including killing off anyone who tries to turn down joining after being conscripted.



Is this fair and just? No, but no one ever said Grey Wardens were fair and just.

[Specimen 47]

Jory was told there was no turning back. He had ample time to reconsider, but he waited until it was too late.
Do I think he deserved to be murdered on the spot? No, not really. But being executed there, or executed later for treason/desertion ... there isn't a whole lot of difference, except for time waiting. As said, repeatedly, in this thread, Duncan did not have time to babysit a full-grown man in a full set of armor with his sword out. Drawing your weapon -first- is a sign of hostility, and you just do not do it unless you intend to use it.
Jory made a series of stupid mistakes. If fear of death made him this stupid, do we really want to see what kind of Warden he would have made if forced to drink the blood? I wouldn't trust someone like him to have my back in a fight.

Modifié par Specimen 47, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:59 .

[Nyaore]

You also have to remember that this particular Joining ritual happened right on the eve of a major battle. As someone else pointed out, Duncan simply did not have the luxury of subduing Jory and throwing him off somewhere to calm down. If it weren't for the battle coming up I'm sure Duncan would have been a bit more forgiving of Jory's panicked state - but you also have to remember that since Jory knew their secret now it was unlikely that Duncan's course of actions would have differed if Jory came out of contemplation still adamantly against the ritual.

[PDXGamerGirl]

I'm simply saying that Jory didn't deserve a stab to the gut over it imo.

Well, as they say, "deserve" ain't got nothin' to do with it.

There are all kinds of atrocities that citizens in Ferelden don't "deserve," starting with your own character.