1. Jory was mortified at what he saw when Davith died.
2. He practically begged Duncan to let him go. He mentioned his wife and kid.
3. Jory was backing up to the wall scared and drew his sword.
4. Jory was not swinging like a madman, he was simply waving it in fear.
5. Duncan was OBVIOUSLY far more accomplished with a blade than Jory, and he drew his "wicked looking weapons".
6. Jory in a near panic took a clumsy swing at Duncan which he easily swatted aside before skewering Jory with that evil saw tooth weapon.
Imagine joining a local lodge in your area and you knew there was an initiation ceremony but it was only known to the members. Suddenly they hand you a goblet of human blood and say drink up, and there is no turning back. Now imagine you have a pistol on you, what would you do? Problem... you have only fired it a few times at the range and the guy handing you the goblet has an MP5 and was Navy Seal!
Was I the only one who didn't like Duncan? *early game spoilers*
Débuté par
Bovinian King
, nov. 17 2009 09:25
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#252
Posté 27 janvier 2010 - 09:41
wwwwowwww
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I didn't know him well enough to really make much of a judgement one way or another.
As a human noble I didn't really appreciate the explotation of circumstances to get me to join, but as a city elf he pretty much saved my butt.
As for what happend with Jory, I could go either way on it. My biggest argument for it would be that Jory was a Knight of Redcliff, a man of honor who's word was everything and his backing out was breaking that word. Other than that , eh.......
As a human noble I didn't really appreciate the explotation of circumstances to get me to join, but as a city elf he pretty much saved my butt.
As for what happend with Jory, I could go either way on it. My biggest argument for it would be that Jory was a Knight of Redcliff, a man of honor who's word was everything and his backing out was breaking that word. Other than that , eh.......
#253
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 12:21
Serion amakiir
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but should you honor you word when the person who you gave your word to hasent told you everything and have been keeping secrets from you?
to compare in a crude sens of the matter would you trust your children to a convictet pedofial if he promises Not to touch them in a bad way?
to compare in a crude sens of the matter would you trust your children to a convictet pedofial if he promises Not to touch them in a bad way?
#254
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 01:06
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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RangerSG wrote...
As for the noble, talk with Bryce after the family gathering. Bryce makes it clear that if Duncan presses the issue, he'd accept it. He doesn't want to, and if you read between the lines, he doesn't want to because your mother doesn't want you to go.
He said he's consider it. In otherwords, he'd think about it, not accept it. I hardly think bryce's only reservation was simply because Elanoor didn't want it. Your noble, is after all, his youngest child. He only has two. Bryce would consider it, but perhaps, only because that it what the PC wanted. It's clear Bryce was not going to back down if Duncan tried waving the Right of Conscription at that point.
Fergus: "Mother and Father have been arguing for days."
Mother: "You haven't gotten it into your head that you want to be recruited, have you?" (this is actually before at the 'salon' discussion).
Bryce: "Has he asked to recruit you?"
PC: "And if he had?"
Bryce: "I'd have to consider it," (implication, 'accept it').
Consider does not imply "accept". Consider implies that, fi the PC wanted to join, he would consider it, and discuss the implications. One of the implications and results of joining the Wardens is cutting off all ties to your former life and family. Something no father would accept lightly, without seriosu consideration and discussion.
So Bryce was not the one holding you back from joining. His initial
protest, put in the context of the later discussions, seems to be what
the Teryna has asked him to say. And he is repeating it for her sake to
keep a united front.
And to think I thought it was because my noble objected outright at the thought. No, I did not see Bryce objecting merely on his wife's feelings alone. Bryce did not seem keen on losing his youngest who, by all accounts, has a very bright future ahead of her, perhaps as a noble of her/his own lands.
Duncan, I think, reads people well enough to know that Bryce's initial protest was along those lines. And he's probably heard that excuse enough to know a "mother's excuse" when he hears it. He made it clear all along Ser Gilmore was a distant second choice for a recruit. And given the context of the discussions, it seems that Duncan and Bryce had already agreed that he would get 'someone' from his visit to Highever. You're the only 'someone' left.
Duncan states after Bryce's objections, that if he did not find Gilmore suitable, that he would move on and look elsewhere. He didn't make it clear that Gilmore was a second choice until the escape from the castle. He said your noble would make a fine recruit, to which Bryce immediately objects, and Duncan is smart enough, at that point, to know he has little leverage and doesn't want to force the issue then.
In all, I gather from the Human Noble Origin that your parents certainly would rather you NOT join the Wardens, instead, live to fulfill a bright future ahead of you. Some say you'd make a better Teyrn/a than Fergus, others just mention you are quite formidable and such. Given that your past and future are pretty much gone once you join the Wardens, I really can't see either Bryce or Elanoor being too keen on you joining such an order, when there are far better opportunities for a better, more fulfilling life ahead of you.
Now if you were a waste of space and a stain on the family, i could see them excited at the opportunity for you to join and do something useful and honorable with your life. However, given the origin and the feedback from others, it seems that everyone has very high hopes and expectations regarding the PC.
Which makes Duncan's blackmailing a dying Bryce even more bitter.
#255
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 04:21
Darkannex
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(please excuse wall o text, I tried to put some breaks in and it didn't take)
The really fun thing about this game is that while you have heroic and evil 'acts', the people themselves do not entirely conform to either polarity. In this game all the NPC's are flawed. There are both good and bad things about them. Duncan is no exemption.
*warning* there will be some book spoilers here. Ill try to notate them, but don't roast me if I miss some warnings.
(calling spoilers) Duncan full well knows the bitterness of forced conscription. Genevieve (the former commander of Duncan), conscripted him after he killed her fiance. He knows full well how bitter it is, and it seems very often that he tries to avoid doing so when he can.(end calling spoilers)
As stated, he uses the act of conscription as a 'last' resort. I have never refused as a human noble, realizing that duty even bitter is still duty, but from what I've read, Duncan will conscript if you refuse. In all other origins, his conscription is an act that saves your character. While Bryce does say that he does not want Duncan to have you, Duncan assures Bryce that he will not force the issue (meaning he COULD take you), because he has bigger problems. But does that mean he should be heroic and not take advantage of an opportunity when it occurs? Silly kids, heroics are for fairy tales.
Above all, GW are there to battle and defeat the Blight. When you have the option to recruit Loghan, Riordin says as much. They will take thieves, kinslayers, all kinds to the GW. All that is needed is someone willing to take up the sword against the Blight. It was with this understanding that Duncan accepted Jory. Jory demonstrated that willingness to take up arms against the Blight. He confirms that 1. he did NOT know that there would be additional tests to become a GW and 2. That he was the one that sought to become one. If you run after a ball yourself without looking into it more thoroughly - is it the ball's fault you didn't watch where you were going? If Duncan were noble and heroic possibly he might have spelled things out. He might have tried to reason more with Jory. Instead he realized that Jory was inept to handle what was needed. Once he refused the Joining, even with the warning that there was no going back, the matter of defense/self defense became moot. There was no turning back for any of them.
In the Calling (spoilers) Duncan tells Maric only after verifying with his commander how the Joining happens. And that permission was given reluctantly. (end)
From this we can take that the Wardens do not give secrets lightly. They in fact try to mask as much of themselves as possible. Why? Because knowledge is a potent thing. What do they 'gain' in their struggle by advertising that the Joining might kill you? Even more, what do they stand to LOSE by revealing that by becoming a GW you are in fact taking into your body the very poison that kills/thralls/destroys so many others? That knowledge could turn open support into complete and total enmity. You would be viewed with distrust and revulsion.
The GW are presented heroically to those that are ignorant. But the nobles know better. It's political playing. Is it right? Not in a classical sense. Is it realistic - yes.
Once Jory dedicated himself to becoming a Warden he was done. For those stating that Duncan should have just patted him on the head and sent him home are missing the point. Duncan is not a 'hero'. He is a GW, and to a GW, only the Blight matters. They will do whatever they need to in order to fight the Blight. Jory became a stumbling block to that mission and was disposed of. It's meant to startle, it's meant to make you realize that you are in this to the end.
All arguments that "you should have been told this, or told that" miss the point. You were told what you needed to know. All that mattered. The Blight must be stopped. You are one of those that are going to stop it. You may die, and very likely will. Do they have to write out a contract with subclauses detailing all possible risks down to a hangnail? Just because Jory refused to step out of his comfort zone and realize that not all battles can be won with a sword is not Duncan's problem. Nor is it Duncan's problem to psychoanalyze recruits. If you don't know yourself well enough to know what you're doing - or don't QUESTION it yourself - then you've noone to blame. Ser Jory was a warrior and a valiant fighter. He was willing to leave his wife and unborn to fight the Blight. That showed a level of commitmant that Duncan had no reason to question. *shrug* If you were trying to impress a boss, would you whine to him? No, you'd whine to others. Im sure Jory never told Duncan that he was perplexed and scared. So Duncan was supposed to know that one of his recruits was flaking?
This is not black and white where there are clear cut good and evil. That's why it is 'dark' fantasy.
The really fun thing about this game is that while you have heroic and evil 'acts', the people themselves do not entirely conform to either polarity. In this game all the NPC's are flawed. There are both good and bad things about them. Duncan is no exemption.
*warning* there will be some book spoilers here. Ill try to notate them, but don't roast me if I miss some warnings.
(calling spoilers) Duncan full well knows the bitterness of forced conscription. Genevieve (the former commander of Duncan), conscripted him after he killed her fiance. He knows full well how bitter it is, and it seems very often that he tries to avoid doing so when he can.(end calling spoilers)
As stated, he uses the act of conscription as a 'last' resort. I have never refused as a human noble, realizing that duty even bitter is still duty, but from what I've read, Duncan will conscript if you refuse. In all other origins, his conscription is an act that saves your character. While Bryce does say that he does not want Duncan to have you, Duncan assures Bryce that he will not force the issue (meaning he COULD take you), because he has bigger problems. But does that mean he should be heroic and not take advantage of an opportunity when it occurs? Silly kids, heroics are for fairy tales.
Above all, GW are there to battle and defeat the Blight. When you have the option to recruit Loghan, Riordin says as much. They will take thieves, kinslayers, all kinds to the GW. All that is needed is someone willing to take up the sword against the Blight. It was with this understanding that Duncan accepted Jory. Jory demonstrated that willingness to take up arms against the Blight. He confirms that 1. he did NOT know that there would be additional tests to become a GW and 2. That he was the one that sought to become one. If you run after a ball yourself without looking into it more thoroughly - is it the ball's fault you didn't watch where you were going? If Duncan were noble and heroic possibly he might have spelled things out. He might have tried to reason more with Jory. Instead he realized that Jory was inept to handle what was needed. Once he refused the Joining, even with the warning that there was no going back, the matter of defense/self defense became moot. There was no turning back for any of them.
In the Calling (spoilers) Duncan tells Maric only after verifying with his commander how the Joining happens. And that permission was given reluctantly. (end)
From this we can take that the Wardens do not give secrets lightly. They in fact try to mask as much of themselves as possible. Why? Because knowledge is a potent thing. What do they 'gain' in their struggle by advertising that the Joining might kill you? Even more, what do they stand to LOSE by revealing that by becoming a GW you are in fact taking into your body the very poison that kills/thralls/destroys so many others? That knowledge could turn open support into complete and total enmity. You would be viewed with distrust and revulsion.
The GW are presented heroically to those that are ignorant. But the nobles know better. It's political playing. Is it right? Not in a classical sense. Is it realistic - yes.
Once Jory dedicated himself to becoming a Warden he was done. For those stating that Duncan should have just patted him on the head and sent him home are missing the point. Duncan is not a 'hero'. He is a GW, and to a GW, only the Blight matters. They will do whatever they need to in order to fight the Blight. Jory became a stumbling block to that mission and was disposed of. It's meant to startle, it's meant to make you realize that you are in this to the end.
All arguments that "you should have been told this, or told that" miss the point. You were told what you needed to know. All that mattered. The Blight must be stopped. You are one of those that are going to stop it. You may die, and very likely will. Do they have to write out a contract with subclauses detailing all possible risks down to a hangnail? Just because Jory refused to step out of his comfort zone and realize that not all battles can be won with a sword is not Duncan's problem. Nor is it Duncan's problem to psychoanalyze recruits. If you don't know yourself well enough to know what you're doing - or don't QUESTION it yourself - then you've noone to blame. Ser Jory was a warrior and a valiant fighter. He was willing to leave his wife and unborn to fight the Blight. That showed a level of commitmant that Duncan had no reason to question. *shrug* If you were trying to impress a boss, would you whine to him? No, you'd whine to others. Im sure Jory never told Duncan that he was perplexed and scared. So Duncan was supposed to know that one of his recruits was flaking?
This is not black and white where there are clear cut good and evil. That's why it is 'dark' fantasy.
Modifié par Darkannex, 29 janvier 2010 - 04:23 .
#256
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 04:46
Addai
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Agreed, as I've said elsewhere, I think it is clearest in the HN origin that Duncan is overzealous and, IMO, unnecessarily so. Yes, GWs are needed, and he is sure that a Blight is upon them, but there is no reasonable motive to rush a forced recruitment on the eve of Ostagar. Duncan himself reveals this when he says he'll move on if he doesn't find one. His recruitment of the youngest Cousland is at best opportunism and at worst exploitation. From my Lady Cousland's perspective, she was perfectly willing to fight agains the Blight and die for it, but if she lived, she wanted to be free to restore her family line. Duncan forced her into a life where that is all but impossible. As becomes apparent later, a Blight can destroy a nation but so can a civil war, and the 2nd highest family in the land needs to play a unique role in such a situation.Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
In all, I gather from the Human Noble Origin that your parents certainly would rather you NOT join the Wardens, instead, live to fulfill a bright future ahead of you. Some say you'd make a better Teyrn/a than Fergus, others just mention you are quite formidable and such. Given that your past and future are pretty much gone once you join the Wardens, I really can't see either Bryce or Elanoor being too keen on you joining such an order, when there are far better opportunities for a better, more fulfilling life ahead of you.
Now if you were a waste of space and a stain on the family, i could see them excited at the opportunity for you to join and do something useful and honorable with your life. However, given the origin and the feedback from others, it seems that everyone has very high hopes and expectations regarding the PC.
Which makes Duncan's blackmailing a dying Bryce even more bitter.
Edit: OTOH, I think my HFN will eventually forgive Duncan because it's pretty clear that the Maker's hand was in what Duncan did. It was, in fact, Duncan's last chance to recruit someone who could stop the Blight- he just couldn't have known that and did what he did anyway.
Modifié par Addai67, 29 janvier 2010 - 06:01 .
#257
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 05:57
Zugin
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My current character (human noble) would probably kill Duncan if he had a chance, IF the blight was over. Duncan's action at the castle is no something he would forget no matter to what end.. Vengeance has to be always visited, sooner or later!
On the other hand Dwarf Noble that was my first playthrough considered Duncan to be almost a friend of sort. He definitely had no issue with him killing Jory, whom he thought to be a weak and cowardly.
I actually wonder why GW do not recruit from Legion of the Dead, seems like a perfect place to get hardened warrior with no future and complete dedication
On the other hand Dwarf Noble that was my first playthrough considered Duncan to be almost a friend of sort. He definitely had no issue with him killing Jory, whom he thought to be a weak and cowardly.
I actually wonder why GW do not recruit from Legion of the Dead, seems like a perfect place to get hardened warrior with no future and complete dedication
#258
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 08:55
SidheKate
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The Legion is supposed to stand as a front line between the darkspawn and the dwarfs, not to go topside and be vigilant.
My human noble was my first character, and I was pretty outraged that Duncan expected you to go die for strangers instead of dying for your family. Yes, if you continue to refuse, he conscripts you. During the Joining, I always wished for the option to say something like, "die if I drink, die if I don't drink, why not let me die with my family where I belonged?" I found the other origins to be a little more sympathetic/appreciative to what Duncan tried to do. I saw the Mage as excited, Dalish as reluctant but thankful for the opportunity to correct a mistake, Dwarf Noble as appreciative, City Elf as relieved and Common Dwarf as hopeful for the future for the first time. The only other time I was surprised was if your City Elf says both you and Soris were responsible... that was an instant reload for me.
But Human Noble? It would be more likely that Mom would bash me in the head with a shield and tell Duncan to carry me out than for me to willingly leave with him.
My human noble was my first character, and I was pretty outraged that Duncan expected you to go die for strangers instead of dying for your family. Yes, if you continue to refuse, he conscripts you. During the Joining, I always wished for the option to say something like, "die if I drink, die if I don't drink, why not let me die with my family where I belonged?" I found the other origins to be a little more sympathetic/appreciative to what Duncan tried to do. I saw the Mage as excited, Dalish as reluctant but thankful for the opportunity to correct a mistake, Dwarf Noble as appreciative, City Elf as relieved and Common Dwarf as hopeful for the future for the first time. The only other time I was surprised was if your City Elf says both you and Soris were responsible... that was an instant reload for me.
But Human Noble? It would be more likely that Mom would bash me in the head with a shield and tell Duncan to carry me out than for me to willingly leave with him.
#259
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 09:30
said a mom
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It bothered me when Duncan killed Ser Jory too - that on top of the fact that he pretty much stayed out of it when my city elf and co. got dragged off to get raped/murdered ("hey there Soris, here's a sword - the pointy bit goes in the other guy, good luck with that....") lead me to the conclusion that while Duncan didn't go out of his way to kick puppies, he was not a nice man.
My character felt it was an important lesson about the sacrifices that Grey Wardens had to continue to make, and modeled many decisions based on it - save who you can, but don't d*ck around the blight is coming: "yes Isolde you are a b**ch" (I wish there was a mod so I could slap her) "yes you may die." -
My character felt it was an important lesson about the sacrifices that Grey Wardens had to continue to make, and modeled many decisions based on it - save who you can, but don't d*ck around the blight is coming: "yes Isolde you are a b**ch" (I wish there was a mod so I could slap her) "yes you may die." -
#260
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 10:14
Serion amakiir
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OMG (said a mom) pls dont start on isolde!!! i would almost always chose to kill the kid just so i can **** slap and cut her sons throat just to bring her more pain, i mean cmon she dosent give a rats ass that its because of Her hundreds i dont know maybe 50 or more ppl have died and all she can think about is Her son? how many moms,dads,sons,daughters and small puppies have died for the choice she made. damn that woman deserves to be taken outside behind the toolshed for a woompen and then shot 50 times with arrows....from each of 50 archers
#261
Posté 30 janvier 2010 - 02:10
Melca36
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Serion amakiir wrote...
OMG (said a mom) pls dont start on isolde!!! i would almost always chose to kill the kid just so i can **** slap and cut her sons throat just to bring her more pain, i mean cmon she dosent give a rats ass that its because of Her hundreds i dont know maybe 50 or more ppl have died and all she can think about is Her son? how many moms,dads,sons,daughters and small puppies have died for the choice she made. damn that woman deserves to be taken outside behind the toolshed for a woompen and then shot 50 times with arrows....from each of 50 archers
I HATED Isolde!!! She was a horrible smothering mother and even though my character saved her and Connor,
I was happy that Connor would be sent to the Circle to GET AWAY FROM HER!!!
#262
Posté 30 janvier 2010 - 02:24
zykinwulf
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I liked duncan, he seems a 'jedi' type character, not to mention a snazzy dresser. I can only stand to play thru as a Human Noble, even though i played thru each origin story to see what went on. I was more than happy to join the wardens, even what my noble parents thought. Yes it sucked they died but i would have joined regardless.
#263
Posté 30 janvier 2010 - 02:54
DarthRomance
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I like him only as a joke. In the 3 origins I played, all hell breaks loose everywhere and then in strolls Duncan out of nowhere, all calm and "tranquil" to advance the plot. I am hoping of conceiving some sort of mod or story that goes deeper into my characters' experience with him. That would at least help a little. My reasons I hate him so far:
1. I don't really like him with the Noble origin the way he threatens my father. Plus I don't need him, Howe's men were never a threat to my skills.
2. Alistair pretending like they had this deep bromance makes it worse.
3. I find him really naive as a leader. He becomes the King's yes-man at Ostagar and it is just really stupid and weak imo. Even ****** Alistair knows it is Loghain we should be listening to.
1. I don't really like him with the Noble origin the way he threatens my father. Plus I don't need him, Howe's men were never a threat to my skills.
2. Alistair pretending like they had this deep bromance makes it worse.
3. I find him really naive as a leader. He becomes the King's yes-man at Ostagar and it is just really stupid and weak imo. Even ****** Alistair knows it is Loghain we should be listening to.
#264
Posté 30 janvier 2010 - 03:02
Suzene
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My Dalish warrior was OK with Duncan for a while, even if he wasn't exactly a member of his fanclub like Alistair was. Then he found out what really happened to Tamlen -- if there had been an option in RtO to find Duncan's corpse and deliberately leave it to rot, my guy would have taken it.
#265
Posté 01 février 2010 - 09:49
Serion amakiir
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well then folks shall we kick it up another notch?
instead of making a new thread i say lets talk about alistair and then move on to isolde etc etc
my opinion of alistair is that when i startet playing DAO i thought he was a funny guy but the more i think of him is that all he can do is stand around and say, i miss duncan...sniffels.
when i have alistair in my party i really hate that i cant say to him in the diolog that "duncan got what he deserves" cause then i get -25 rep, even do i think duncan didnt die, he will probly turn up as a prisoner of the darkspawn or working in a darkspawn horehouse playing miss fluffer for 2 ****slap per customer.
i know i know i am a bar rude man......and i LOVE IT!!! Muhahahaha
instead of making a new thread i say lets talk about alistair and then move on to isolde etc etc
my opinion of alistair is that when i startet playing DAO i thought he was a funny guy but the more i think of him is that all he can do is stand around and say, i miss duncan...sniffels.
when i have alistair in my party i really hate that i cant say to him in the diolog that "duncan got what he deserves" cause then i get -25 rep, even do i think duncan didnt die, he will probly turn up as a prisoner of the darkspawn or working in a darkspawn horehouse playing miss fluffer for 2 ****slap per customer.
i know i know i am a bar rude man......and i LOVE IT!!! Muhahahaha
