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[Taleroth]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Yes, and some 30 years later half your legion turns into a shambling horde of Darkspawn, naturally AFTER having dispersed all around the land.

My legions are easier to keep track of than those Grey Warden mercenaries roaming around, I'll tell you what.

a few thousand people who have long returned to a civilian live and scattered all around the land are easier to keep track of than a few dozen people who watch each other for signs of corruption because they know what's coming to them?

Under what reasoning do you automatically presume that they get a return to civilian life?  What, just because the government has their own Grey Warden divisions, they're completely incapable of the same behavior as the current Grey Wardens?

The Angry One wrote...

Seeing as all Grey Wardens directly answer to their regional leaders, and those regional leaders answer to Weisshaupt.. they are quite easy to keep track of.

How does someone in Ferelden having to ultimately answer to Weisshaupt easier tracking than that same person ultimately answering to someone in Denerim?

Modifié par Taleroth, 17 novembre 2009 - 10:42 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Wintermist wrote...

The whole forcing to drink darkspawn blood is flawed anyway. If you force someone who doesn't want to drink it, you can bet your ass he will be highly upset if he comes to life again and could well cause havoc among the ranks, murdering and whatnot. Conscript a murderer, and you can bet your ass you have a dagger in your back in the morning, and footprints leading into the woods.

Now if they are open about it and let people come to them and do the honorable thing, it would be a  safer better system. As a criminal you would have this one chance to redeem yourself, but it would be voluntary.

The death-sentence from the taint thing threw me much more for my Human Noble playthrough than it did in my Mage playthrough, or the City Elf playthrough I started. In all the other origins, your character has done something that is likely to get them sentenced to death/Tranquility/imprisonment/death from the taint/death from darkspawn in the Deep Roads, etc., but in the Human Noble origin you haven't done anything wrong, and in fact you've just suffered a horrendous injustice. While you can reason that for all the other origins the taint isn't so bad because they had no other choice, there were plenty of things the child of a Teyrn could do with their lives besides becoming a Grey Warden, so Duncan basically conscripts you. Yes, you may do it out of gratitute for him saving your life, but it still makes the early-death thing a bit harder to accept as anything but a dirty trick.

[AtreiyaN7]

The Angry One wrote...

On Jory not being Grey Warden material, he won the tournament intended to test who'd be worthy of being a Grey Warden! He clearly had the combat ability and Duncan NEEDS new recruits.
Jory simply wasn't honest about what he was willing to give up.

Well, I think being a Grey Warden isn't just about combat ability. It's also about being able to sacrifice yourself for the greater good, and Jory couldn't do that with the baggage of his wife & child, etc. If it had come time to face the archdemon and Riordan had told Sir Jory about what was necessary, I imagine that Jory would have cut & run, flipped out, panicked, refused, etc. just like he did at the Joining ceremony.

[Reiella]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

The death-sentence from the taint thing threw me much more for my Human Noble playthrough than it did in my Mage playthrough, or the City Elf playthrough I started. In all the other origins, your character has done something that is likely to get them sentenced to death/Tranquility/imprisonment/death from the taint/death from darkspawn in the Deep Roads, etc., but in the Human Noble origin you haven't done anything wrong, and in fact you've just suffered a horrendous injustice. While you can reason that for all the other origins the taint isn't so bad because they had no other choice, there were plenty of things the child of a Teyrn could do with their lives besides becoming a Grey Warden, so Duncan basically conscripts you. Yes, you may do it out of gratitute for him saving your life, but it still makes the early-death thing a bit harder to accept as anything but a dirty trick.

Mage Origin can also potentially feel that way, if you are Irving's agent, you have done nothing wrong.  Greagoir would have to make Irving answer first, Duncan signing you up was more a favor to save Irving from further trouble and frustration than to help the player.

[Wintermist]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Well, I think being a Grey Warden isn't just about combat ability. It's also about being able to sacrifice yourself for the greater good, and Jory couldn't do that with the baggage of his wife & child, etc. If it had come time to face the archdemon and Riordan had told Sir Jory about what was necessary, I imagine that Jory would have cut & run, flipped out, panicked, refused, etc. just like he did at the Joining ceremony.

But I do understand Jory. He has a family, he thought he was joining for the honor, instead he's faced, at the very initiation ritual that he may actually die right there and then. Had he known that from the start I doubt very much he would have wanted to become a Grey Warden. He wanted to do his part, but he certainly didn't want to leave a widow behind just for the sake of joining. And he's not a fresh new recruit, he has combat experience.

[The Angry One]

Actually in the mage origin, Irving is grooming you for entrance into the Grey Wardens due to your talents. The incident with Jowan is largely a coincidence.

[Juztazinja]

Duncan got ganked anyways.. My character would have told him off if he had survived and tried to come with. He refused Duncan over and over at keep Cousland, until he was forced into the Grey Wardens regardless. Killing Jory simply made my guy hate Duncan that much more.



Or.. Outright killed Duncan, maybe even Alistair.. Ended up killing Zen *slits throat*



The scene itself is pretty tremendous, however, it shows the severity of the situation, pretty much making a player think and feel, to whatever end, adding to the overall experience and shaping your character that much more.

[AtreiyaN7]

Wintermist wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Well, I think being a Grey Warden isn't just about combat ability. It's also about being able to sacrifice yourself for the greater good, and Jory couldn't do that with the baggage of his wife & child, etc. If it had come time to face the archdemon and Riordan had told Sir Jory about what was necessary, I imagine that Jory would have cut & run, flipped out, panicked, refused, etc. just like he did at the Joining ceremony.

But I do understand Jory. He has a family, he thought he was joining for the honor, instead he's faced, at the very initiation ritual that he may actually die right there and then. Had he known that from the start I doubt very much he would have wanted to become a Grey Warden. He wanted to do his part, but he certainly didn't want to leave a widow behind just for the sake of joining. And he's not a fresh new recruit, he has combat experience.

Oh yes, I understand your point, but despite his combat experience, his reaction was one of fear. If you talk to him in camp before the ceremony, I believe it comes out that he's pretty darned reluctant about doing this whole thing anyway despite it being an honor. However, my memory may be faulty and I will have to replay from the beginning to check on that.

I think you also actually do have to pay attention to any facial expressions, posture, etc. In any case, I'm not denying his combat experience - Loghain had combat experience, and he didn't weenie out in the end (he had no choice, but he faced it bravely at least - I'll give the evil bastard that). The impression that I get out of Jory is that he thought things would be all chivalrous/knightly and that it wouldn't involve much real danger.

Hey, I'm totally sympathetic towards Sir Jory (don't think that I'm not - I get the whole family attachment thing), but I still think he didn't have what it took. I mean, maybe if they had time to coddle him, but that's just not the Grey Warden way. Either you have what it takes in that moment, or you just don't during the Joining (surviving it is another matter entirely however).

[Raltar]

I liked Duncan as my Dalish elf. But then I played a City Elf and didn't like him as much. He seemed a lot less involved in that origin. I haven't played any of the other origins yet, so I can't comment on all of them. After the origin, he's fine. But he just seems more distant in the City Elf origin.

[The Angry One]

Duncan is involved more subtly in the city elf origin, but he's still a key player.

He's the one who helps Soris and Neleros into the Arl's estate by giving them weapons (perhaps it's different as a male PC, haven't seen that one) and if you choose to remain silent when the guards come to question you, Duncan refuses to say anything either - which speaks in favour of his character I think since it was in his interest for you to be implicated. It's only after that elven hag rats on you that he invokes the right of conscription.

[cedardryad]

Either way, he was joining the Grey Wardens during a time of war and he was expecting not to die? I mean if I joined the military, even though I have a family, I'm not naive enough to believe that I won't die.



Yes, I'm sure he thought there was a possibility of dying in battle instead of the initiation, but still there was a chance in both situations.

[The Angry One]

I rather wonder if, due to his own fantasies and Cailan's apparent victories, Jory had it in his head that the Blight would be defeated that night and he'd get to trot back home as a Grey Warden and live it up with his family with all the glory accorded a Warden.

He did after all repeatedly express annoyance that there were "further tests", assuming being worthy of recruitment was all it took.

[Bovinian King]

When I asked the question, I didn't mean for the thread to turn into a huge debate about Duncan and the GW's morals...

[Fudzie]

Why are we bringing modern-day sentiments into a setting and game trying to represent the absolutely different mentality of a medieval feudal society? It's wrong by modern-day standards, but by the standards of the setting, it's forgivable and sometimes honored. We look at Jory from our modern perspective, he's, as another poster put it, someone who "isn't a coward but just wasn't honest with himself" about how much he was willing to lose.



To everyone there at the joining, he was a coward, and that, alone, is enough to make him less than a man in the eyes of almost everyone present. If anything, Duncan was more progressive in his response to the situation that many others with the setting mentality would have shown. Instead of just running him through, he tried to remind Jory of what would happen if he continued to resist BEFORE killing him.



And the whole deal with keeping the taint secret; it's not about potential recruits, it's about the Chantry, which holds as much, if not more, power over whole countries as country rulers do. If word gets around that the Grey Wardens are tainted, the Chantry would lead a crusade of extermination against them, completely oblivious to the fact that the blights only ended with one grey warden killing an archdemon - because to any person in the setting, destroying ANYTHING with the taint is the right and honorable thing. As a grey warden, you're an abomination against everything that the people you're fighting for hold as holy and valuable. THAT'S why there's no turning back, why the ritual is a secret, and deserters need to be killed as soon as possible; it's not about recruitment, it's about survival of existing members. If even a rumor that the Grey Wardens drink darkspawn blood gets out to the Chantry, that will be taken as them being either pawns of the darkspawn or practicioners of blood magic and the order hunted down to a man.

[LenaMarie]

oh great not another "Han shot first" debate. I think you'd have to be blind not to notice Jory did Attack Duncan. But what else could he do? Hold jory down and pour the blood down his throat? You really probaly cant live once you know the wardens secrets if you dont join.

[phordicus]

doubled!

Modifié par phordicus, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:00 .

[JamesX]

Duncan is just a heartless bastard. How many people will take advantage of a dying father to get his son to join the Wardens? Duncan did.

As for Jory, the official excuse is that "Jory left him no choice." Well from what I remember, Duncan or even Alister didn't even try to talk Jory down. Their 1st reaction was "You are committed, no choice." then he killed him.

Duncan is never portrayed as a good man. Though he is a good Warden.

As for Jory attacking first.  That is not true.  In any legal world Jory would be classified as Self-Defense.

The sequence of event is
1) Jory drew his weapon
2) Ducan said he had no choice
3) Jory tried to move back away from them (to escape evidently)
4) Ducan drew his weapon and moved in closer (definitely in a threatening manner, just look at the way he held it).
5) Jory attacked

Modifié par JamesX, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:02 .

[phordicus]

jory was a coward at heart who couldn't face a problem not solved by slicing it with a sword.  even if drinking the blood had no other purpose, it will out those with faint hearts (or weak stomachs).

[Benndak]

Yes. You are. Hail the beard.

[The Angry One]

If people ever bothered to talk to Bryce in Fergus' room, you'd know he's already considering you joining the Grey Wardens.

And Duncan could've just saved you and conscripted you later. Instead he chose to be honest about it, and let Bryce know his child would live and be among an order of heroes.

[The Angry One]

JamesX wrote...

As for Jory attacking first.  That is not true.  In any legal world Jory would be classified as Self-Defense.

The sequence of event is
1) Jory drew his weapon
2) Ducan said he had no choice
3) Jory tried to move back away from them (to escape evidently)
4) Ducan drew his weapon and moved in closer (definitely in a threatening manner, just look at the way he held it).
5) Jory attacked

You're kidding right? Duncan drew a weapon because Jory drew his!
If you pull a gun on someone first, you do not get to claim self-defense.

[Reiella]

The Angry One wrote...

I rather wonder if, due to his own fantasies and Cailan's apparent victories, Jory had it in his head that the Blight would be defeated that night and he'd get to trot back home as a Grey Warden and live it up with his family with all the glory accorded a Warden.
He did after all repeatedly express annoyance that there were "further tests", assuming being worthy of recruitment was all it took.

See, something interesting to me, that I sorta justify, but never really.  As a human noble in that situation, I couldn't see an option to tell Jory that Highever has fallen, and most likly his wife is dead at the hands of Howe's men.

Only justification I get from is that his wife was in the lands of Highever, and not necessarily the castle.  And that's about the only thing I get from it, is just assuming that she wasn't at the castle or near enough to the castle to have been subjected to the raid.

[phordicus]

JamesX wrote...
The sequence of event is
1) Jory drew his weapon

the police will shoot you with less provocation than that.  he knew the consequences of his actions and was pissing himself.  there's no place for cowards or oathbreakers in war (or anywhere else, really).

Modifié par phordicus, 18 novembre 2009 - 12:08 .

[Reiella]

phordicus wrote...

JamesX wrote...
The sequence of event is
1) Jory drew his weapon

the police will shoot you with less provocation than that.  he knew the consequences of his actions and was pissing himself.  there's no place for cowards or oathbreakers in war.

I dunno, cowards and oathbreakers get to become Regent, and maybe even join the Grey Wardens .

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

You're kidding right? Duncan drew a weapon because Jory drew his!
If you pull a gun on someone first, you do not get to claim self-defense.

What nonsense is that?  So, if someone tries to strangle you, you're not allowed to pull a gun?  As if threats require them to have a bigger weapon than you do.

Jory was attempting to retreat.  Duncan pursued.  There's no instance where that's not considered self-defense.  Unless Jory was robbing Duncan or something.