264 réponses à ce sujet

[Rolenka]

Jory had to die. He knew too much about the Joining.

[Dark83]

JamesX wrote...

In any legal world Jory would be classified as Self-Defense.

After learning state secrets, refusing to swear an oath being seen as unable to keep your mouth shut, you'd be lucky if your case made it to the courts. In any country.

These are essentially agents of a highly reputable and famous agency that essentially poisons their recruits and only takes those who live, who will eventually turn and have only about 30 years to live. If you learn about it, you think they'd let you back out? Especially when you demonstrate that you think it's wrong and horrible, and you clearly don't look like you'd keep it secret.

Think about even Canada, the US, or Britian (liberal countries off the top of my head). Say you were in the midst of joining CSIS/CIA/MI6. In the process, you learn that they coordinated 9/11 to protect against a cult about to summon Cthulhu. Further, that all agents get injected with a mutagen and changed - or die in the process. Then you refused to take the oath, appeared visibly scared and unreliable, and then drew your weapon. Yeah. <_<

[FlintlockJazz]

Just a couple of points I'd like to make:



1. Jorey reacted according to his training. As he states before the ritual starts, he doesn't know how to face things he can't deal with his blade, and like any other trained soldier when in a stressful situation he resorts to his training. If you look at the reactions of Jorey and Daveth when they meet Morrigan you'll see that he's actually quite a lot braver because he knows how to deal with the situation, as he can at least try to fight his way out of it.



2. What the **** was Duncan doing letting them bring weapons to the ritual? I'm sorry, but apparently according to the lore this has happened before, and anyone should know that if you put trained killers, which is what all of them there were, in a stressful situation and there's a weapon available they will go for it. He should have told them to leave their weapons behind, that's a fault of Duncan's I'm sorry to say, bad leadership decision that has resulted in a recruits death, that would probably have gotten him killed by his own squad in Vietnam, what with 'friendly fire' and the like.

[Teakteah]

Bovinian King wrote...

I mean, I did like him up until he killed Ser Jory.  Jory was only wanting his family to be protected in the world and when he brought his sword out, it was likely only as a deterrent, to stop Duncan from forcing the blood or attacking Jory. 

It was completely unnecessary to kill Jory, one can see from his body language that he wasn't meaning unsheathing his sword to be a threatening gesture, he seemed nervous and scared, not hostile or angry and he only began swinging when Duncan provoked him!

Either way, it was just a jerk move on his part.

I believe the real reason he was killed was to prevent him from telling people about exactly what the Grey Wardens are, not because he drew his sword.

[Taritu]

Only time I didn't like Duncan was when as a human noble he won't save me unless I become a Gray Warden. That seemed to me to be taking advantage just a bit too much, and put my family's succession at risk. If my brother is dead, I may be the only remaining heir to the Cousland line, and he's bargaining with my father as he lies bleeding out on the floor.



Not cool. I get he does what he feels he has to, but I still didn't like him for it.

[The Angry One]

Taleroth wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You're kidding right? Duncan drew a weapon because Jory drew his!
If you pull a gun on someone first, you do not get to claim self-defense.

What nonsense is that?  So, if someone tries to strangle you, you're not allowed to pull a gun?  As if threats require them to have a bigger weapon than you do.

Jory was attempting to retreat.  Duncan pursued.  There's no instance where that's not considered self-defense.  Unless Jory was robbing Duncan or something.

False analogy. Duncan was not trying to hurt Jory. Duncan was proceeding with a ritual Jory agreed to after being informed it was highly dangerous. The fact that Jory was backing up doesn't change that he drew a weapon first while Duncan made no hostile gestures.

[menasure]

Taritu wrote...

Only time I didn't like Duncan was when as a human noble he won't save me unless I become a Gray Warden. That seemed to me to be taking advantage just a bit too much, and put my family's succession at risk. If my brother is dead, I may be the only remaining heir to the Cousland line, and he's bargaining with my father as he lies bleeding out on the floor.

Not cool. I get he does what he feels he has to, but I still didn't like him for it.

it's their recruitment policy, duncan picks the guys who face prison or execution to prevent them from running away ... err at least that's why i joined the grey wardens :innocent:

[The Angry One]

Reiella wrote...

See, something interesting to me, that I sorta justify, but never really.  As a human noble in that situation, I couldn't see an option to tell Jory that Highever has fallen, and most likly his wife is dead at the hands of Howe's men.

Only justification I get from is that his wife was in the lands of Highever, and not necessarily the castle.  And that's about the only thing I get from it, is just assuming that she wasn't at the castle or near enough to the castle to have been subjected to the raid.

Highever is a city, actually. Large enough to have it's own alienage like Denerim. I doubt the city was affected by the raid to any large extent so his wife is likely alive and well.

[CChocobo]

No, Duncan was MY mentor. Jory was being a fool. Someone like him would betray the Wardens for his own safety or having "too much to lose" I had a lot to lose but i went through with it, hell i was willing to sacrifice my life to kill the Archdemon so Alistair wouldn't have to.. that is until me and Morrigan spoke and she told me of the ritual, so i figured well she's my girl so the hell with it, not going to hurt anyone, besides it's the eve before an epic last stand we all might die.. I wanted to get it all out of my system before incase i died..
Anyways i'm rambling, the point is! Duncan was my mentor, and helped me to survive the onslaught that bastard Rendon Howe caused, Jory was weak. The fact that he broke like that showed his character, and if he ever became a Warden he most likely would lead to our deaths.

Last thing i want is having to calm down a grown man because he just saw an Ogre rip a man in half, or chase after him in the woods because he's terrified of some werewolves, because he has a wife and kid.. Morrigan dumped me, and took my god child away! How do you like them apples Jory. *shakes fist in frustration*

Modifié par Zer0cool040, 18 novembre 2009 - 03:27 .

[ReubenLiew]

Might be because I'm a warhammer fan, I found no problem with what Duncan did whatsoever.



If anything I was urging him on to gut the poor fool. Although to be fair he should've been given a liiittle bit more notice about how 'dangerous' the Joining is, but then they're the Grey Wardens, they do whatever they have to, no matter how vile it is to other people.



I like to think of them as Space Marines, or Grey Knights even, so having him die quickly like that is nothing compared to the horrors initiates suffer at the hands of a Space Marine initiation. Of course like any normal person if this happened in real life I would be appalled, but then it's a video game and I'm allowed to adjust my moral compass in video games because they let me do it without any real lasting consequences (unless it somehow crashes the game, which would really be something I can get behind and rage about).

[Fudzie]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Might be because I'm a warhammer fan, I found no problem with what Duncan did whatsoever.

If anything I was urging him on to gut the poor fool. Although to be fair he should've been given a liiittle bit more notice about how 'dangerous' the Joining is, but then they're the Grey Wardens, they do whatever they have to, no matter how vile it is to other people.

I like to think of them as Space Marines, or Grey Knights even, so having him die quickly like that is nothing compared to the horrors initiates suffer at the hands of a Space Marine initiation. Of course like any normal person if this happened in real life I would be appalled, but then it's a video game and I'm allowed to adjust my moral compass in video games because they let me do it without any real lasting consequences (unless it somehow crashes the game, which would really be something I can get behind and rage about).

If they had 665 more initiation rituals THEN I'd let you make that. But, it's false, heretic. Be cleansed by the blessed prometheum.

[Reiella]

The Angry One wrote...

Reiella wrote...

See, something interesting to me, that I sorta justify, but never really.  As a human noble in that situation, I couldn't see an option to tell Jory that Highever has fallen, and most likly his wife is dead at the hands of Howe's men.

Only justification I get from is that his wife was in the lands of Highever, and not necessarily the castle.  And that's about the only thing I get from it, is just assuming that she wasn't at the castle or near enough to the castle to have been subjected to the raid.

Highever is a city, actually. Large enough to have it's own alienage like Denerim. I doubt the city was affected by the raid to any large extent so his wife is likely alive and well.

That really makes Howe's cover story a bit more flimsy to me, unforunately.  That said, I was really disappointed with the human noble story in general, so I guess it's to be expected I'd gravitate toward perceived fault .

[Forumtroll]

Disliking Duncan's beard can get you hung for treason and burned at the stake for blasephemy.

Modifié par Forumtroll, 18 novembre 2009 - 03:42 .

[ReubenLiew]

Well to be fair they ARE about the equivalent to the Grey Knights in this unviverse, but going though 666 rituals? My god man, that's the entire game right there!



The blight's over by the time you become a Grey Warden!



And fire cannot be used to cleanse more fire, Loyalist scum! Praise Tzeentch!



*cough* Stopping this now out of fear of getting the boot for offtopicness.



Anyway I agree with Zero though. He seems like he lacks the last thing that Grey Wardens require above everything else, including martial prowess and bravery to fight the enemies he besets, and that is strict adherence to the Grey Warden ways, which include self sacrifice above and beyond your own desires, and that includes family and revenge, although I guess someone forgot to tell this to Alistair, but it forwarded my goals in the end anyway and I still got my revenge, so it's all good. After all, all Grey Wardens are exprected to die in battle, not old age, and also expected to give yourself willingly to the Maker if you happen to be the last one to face the Archdemon.



After all, even if as someone said it was unlikely the younger generation would need to face the archdemon and give up his soul for that, there is the chance that ANY Grey Warden has to do this, and Ser Jory obviously displayed the lack of ability to go through with that final sacrifice, since he won't even allow himself to sacrifice himself on something that only has a CHANCE to kill him instead of the 100% assurity that it will when you kill the archdemon.



Plus the secrets of the Grey Wardens needed to be kept secret, as selfish as it sounds, because they NEED new recruits, even if this means tricking them into it. There is no turning back, and you either give yourself willingly to the Grey Wardens, or die. (Well thats' assuming if you are already at the point of no return.)

[Agni108]

Well, Alistair is about as goody-two-shoes as you get in this game, and he had no problem with what Duncan did. So in the context of the game-world it appeared to be justified.

[Ninjaphrog]

Duncan is in my opinion an idiot.



A guy unsheathing his sword out of fear cause he has a family to think of and not willing to accept the choice, and then burrying a sword in his gut cause he doesn't do as you told him?



Sorry but I personally think that the Grey Wardens' presense came with a sacrifice....



"Do as we tell you or see your home burn and your family slaughtered what do we care...and if they don't we will..."

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

Reiella wrote...

See, something interesting to me, that I sorta justify, but never really.  As a human noble in that situation, I couldn't see an option to tell Jory that Highever has fallen, and most likly his wife is dead at the hands of Howe's men.

Only justification I get from is that his wife was in the lands of Highever, and not necessarily the castle.  And that's about the only thing I get from it, is just assuming that she wasn't at the castle or near enough to the castle to have been subjected to the raid.

Highever is a city, actually. Large enough to have it's own alienage like Denerim. I doubt the city was affected by the raid to any large extent so his wife is likely alive and well.

It's more than a city, that's why it's ruled by a Teyrn and not an Arl.  It'd be closer to a state in US terms.  It used to be an independent country.

Modifié par Taleroth, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:23 .

[kaispan]

Agni108 wrote...

Well, Alistair is about as goody-two-shoes as you get in this game, and he had no problem with what Duncan did. So in the context of the game-world it appeared to be justified.

I feel like Alistair had a bit of hero worship going on with Duncan, and would be blind to any of his faults... I mean, when you consider how Duncan joined the Grey Wardens (or at least what I've heard secondhand), and Alistair still insisting "it's an honor" to join when really (as has been discussed) Duncan would darn near blackmail people in forcing them to, whatever it took.

But that brings up the whole Loghain argument again... >=/

Modifié par kaispan, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:26 .

[IronVanguard]

As I recall, it was a rule.



Somewhere, probably talking with Alistair, it was mentioned that one time long ago someone pulled out a weapon during a joining and killed a Grey Warden Commander during it, so since they it was Grey Warden policy to kill them if they pull a weapon.



Or some such.

[CChocobo]

Really how was Duncan in the wrong? Jory knew there was no turning back. We were only warned numerous times. Jory seemed all for it until realizing "oh noes! i might die!" then turns back.

I would not want someone like that serving alongside me as a Grey Warden. Duncan did what was necessary, if he allowed Jory to run off, then others would have done the same. Duncan was a wise man, and good mentor. Being a Grey Warden means to sacrifice. Imagine him in your party.You decide to head into the ruins and look for the sacred ashes. The fool would probably run out screaming at the sight of the dragon, leaving us a person short and possibly getting us killed.



Can you seriously imagine dear ol' Jory being in any of the situations so far in the world? What about when he learns of the Archdemon, and the sacrifice? He'd say "ooh i can't do it i have a wife and child" yet he'd probably be the first to bone Morrigan to save his own skin. so much for his argument of having a wife and kid.. He's spineless, Duncan did what was necessary. Nothing against him personally, but as a Grey Warden Jory would simply compromise our mission, our goal, and also put not only the PC, but all the other party members at risk. His heart was just not in the right place, he lacked the courage..

[Reiella]

Taleroth wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Reiella wrote...

See, something interesting to me, that I sorta justify, but never really.  As a human noble in that situation, I couldn't see an option to tell Jory that Highever has fallen, and most likly his wife is dead at the hands of Howe's men.

Only justification I get from is that his wife was in the lands of Highever, and not necessarily the castle.  And that's about the only thing I get from it, is just assuming that she wasn't at the castle or near enough to the castle to have been subjected to the raid.

Highever is a city, actually. Large enough to have it's own alienage like Denerim. I doubt the city was affected by the raid to any large extent so his wife is likely alive and well.

It's more than a city, that's why it's ruled by a Teyrn and not an Arl.  It'd be closer to a state in US terms.  It used to be an independent country.

Used to be part of Amaranthine.  Which I'm sure doesn't much make Howe happy.  His half isn't given status as a teyrnir.

That said, still feels awkward to me.  Most certainly didn't see a slaughter of the twenty thousand in Highever, but all the same seems odd not to have the option to comment.

[Iseo Tiakan]

IronVanguard wrote...

As I recall, it was a rule.

Somewhere, probably talking with Alistair, it was mentioned that one time long ago someone pulled out a weapon during a joining and killed a Grey Warden Commander during it, so since they it was Grey Warden policy to kill them if they pull a weapon.

Or some such.

This would make some sense. Once bitten, twice shy and all that. Though a better solution would have been not to allow weapons at the Joining at all.

I don't really see the necessity argument that a lot of people are trying to make though. Protecting Grey Warden secrets? My impression from the game as a whole was that the Joining is an open secret at best. Morrigan knows about it. Flemeth knows about it. The dwarves almost have to know about it, or the Calling would make very little sense to them. Anora knows at least enough about it to know that it can be fatal, she doesn't have a problem announcing it before the Landsmeet, and Loghain doesn't seem at all surprised by that bit of information.

Modifié par Iseo Tiakan, 18 novembre 2009 - 05:32 .

[Damotta]

At first I didn't trust him. I wasn't sure about leaving my people to go with him. I thought his "cure" was more molevolent in the beginning. however later I trusted him a bit more. I almost cried when he killed Jory. But I understood whyhe did it. I didn't want him to and I was angry at him for doing so. But it was his duty.

[ReubenLiew]

I think most people know that the joining is most likely fatal, but I guess they expect it to be some sort of test of arms or some sort, and not drinking poison that may or may not kill you. People can accept a test that involves some way that they can fight through it, but when you tell them you basically roll a die and anything above a 4 you're dead, well, less recruits that way.



And I hardly think the Dwarfs are going to spill it all to everybody outside of Orzammar, I mean, how will it even get out? Surface dwarfs are unlikely to be the type of Dwarfs that interact with Grey Warden's often enough to understand what they go through towards the later stages of their lives. Plus this can all be attributed to the fact that they might assume that after fighting darkspawn for so long they are invariably tainted simply by the fact of exposure to them. Happens often enough to other soldiers, they probably don't see why it shouldn't affect other Grey Wardens too.