264 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

I'd just like to say that I don't dislike Duncan, but the joining ritual was very contrived I felt. Again, if recruits have turned on them before why did they let them enter with weapons at all? It was done to try and make the Grey Wardens look badass, but really if you apply any thought to it it actually makes them look like incompetents, and I prefer to write over it with the idea that they just both died from drinking the blood.



And I think people are misunderstanding Jorey: he is not a coward, as he shows a lot less fear than Daveth when confronting Morrigan and Flemeth, who is filling his pants at meeting witches whereas Jorey doesn't seem to care less, he just only knows how to deal with things in one way. Like Reuben said, if it had been a fight to the death he probably wouldn't have had such a problem with it, and besides do you really want someone with no fear whatsoever? Being brave is good, being fearless is just plain stupid, it shows a lack of intelligence or awareness of the situation, and results in stupid risks being taken.

[TuringPoint]

I thought Jory had essentially volunteered. I didn't understand why he couldn't just go once he knew the risk. I guess Duncan wanted to make sure no one escaped and told the secret?

[vicendor]

I was sad when he died but...I guess it had to be done...I just wish they could of sent him down to the battlefield below were he could of taken a few darkspawn with him

[ReubenLiew]

Actually flintlock, I think that's the exact sort of person the Grey Wardens wan.. no, NEED. They need people that are fearless under any circumstances, come hell or high winter. Every warrior in their order are already excellent warriors, the Joining simply eliminates the excellent warriors from the absolutely devoted excellent warriors. They need soldiers that will face anything, and never back down, like Daveth but sadly he succumbed to the poison, otherwise he'd be a great Warden.



Jory was a good man, and under normal circumstances he would be considered a brave man. But Grey Wardens are almost always never confronted with 'normal' circumstances, and they need men of such quality. Jory could've turned back at anytime before this, but the second he knew the price and the secret of the Joining he could never be allowed to turn away. Even if he didn't have a blade Duncan would've probably killed him anyway. You are either a Grey Warden, or you are no more than a corpse at the Joining. In the light of the things that they face, sometimes that is the only way.



That is why they keep it secret. If everybody knew just exactly how random the Joining is, well nobody would ever take it up. It's sad, but it's necessary.



Although I'm not too sure why they allowed them in with weapons anyway, but I guess it would look very awkward if you're entering the joining armed with nothing and your superiors are armed to the teeth, you know, just in case you might begin to have second thoughts.

[ninnisinni97]

Ser Jory definitely made a big mistake in drawing his sword on Duncan. I think Jory would surely not have hesitated to use his sword in that desperate moment.

It seems he also had some stupid sense of what would be honorable and what wouldn't. It's a pity Daveth died, because he really knew what it takes to be a Grey Warden, and didn't even hesitate to drink the blood.



Still, of course I can also sympathize with Jory. But even if he had just gone out in battle without drinking the blood, and he had gotten himself killed, how much more use would his wife and child have had of him?

[FlintlockJazz]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Actually flintlock, I think that's the exact sort of person the Grey Wardens wan.. no, NEED. They need people that are fearless under any circumstances, come hell or high winter. Every warrior in their order are already excellent warriors, the Joining simply eliminates the excellent warriors from the absolutely devoted excellent warriors. They need soldiers that will face anything, and never back down, like Daveth but sadly he succumbed to the poison, otherwise he'd be a great Warden.

Jory was a good man, and under normal circumstances he would be considered a brave man. But Grey Wardens are almost always never confronted with 'normal' circumstances, and they need men of such quality. Jory could've turned back at anytime before this, but the second he knew the price and the secret of the Joining he could never be allowed to turn away. Even if he didn't have a blade Duncan would've probably killed him anyway. You are either a Grey Warden, or you are no more than a corpse at the Joining. In the light of the things that they face, sometimes that is the only way.

That is why they keep it secret. If everybody knew just exactly how random the Joining is, well nobody would ever take it up. It's sad, but it's necessary.

Although I'm not too sure why they allowed them in with weapons anyway, but I guess it would look very awkward if you're entering the joining armed with nothing and your superiors are armed to the teeth, you know, just in case you might begin to have second thoughts.

True, I still don't think they want totally fearless people as you'd want them to approach problems without being overconfident, but it does seem that to be a Grey Warden requires you to have some sort of martyr complex. 

It is primarily the lack of foresight Duncan exhibits during the Joining that gets me, it wouldn't be that weird to ask them to go in unarmed, especially as Duncan apparently only needs to use a dagger to take down a fully armoured and armed man anyway, but he doesn't which I feel is out of character for someone like Duncan, leading me to conclude that it was just done to try and display how far Wardens will go.   It's not really that big a deal, I just like to nitpick little things.

[ReubenLiew]

Haha, actually thats true. I think the entire scene was just to demonstrate just how far the Wardens will go to protect their order.



Maybe that's their motivation behind letting the initiates bringing weapons, maybe? Probably in every Joining theres bound to the be one who doesn't want to go through it, and they kill him just to demonstrate to the others how serious the Joining is.

[jimmyw404]

Duncan isn't perfect... how about when he negotiated with your dying human noble father to get you as a recruit.

[ReubenLiew]

Well, perhaps not the most perfect human, but he's most certainly a paragon example of an examplar Grey Warden.

[Jassper]

Anyone that has been in any type of battle knows that Fear is a necessity and important part of survival. However, if you allow yourself to be overcome by it your dead. This was Jory's case. He saw the first die and be came fearful that he may suffer the same fate, therefor refusing to drink. The fear clouded his judgment - If I fight Duncan, I'm dead but if I drink the blood - I might live. The only option Jory could see was "I got to get out".



Controlled fear keeps you alive, uncontrolled fear causes panic and stupid decisions. Having fear doesn't make you a coward - allowing that fear to prevent you from saving man kind when you can - does.

[RazorrX]

When I read The Calling I really liked Duncan.



In the game I end up torn. Killing Jory was the right thing to do (IMO). He was warned, you were ALL warned. At the campfire I made a point to ask "What if we want to back out?" and was told VERY VERY Plainly "There is no backing out at this time, you are no longer volunteers, you are conscripted into the Grey Wardens, your options are to join or die." Or some such.



I hated Jory. Dude was a coward. The ONLY reason he wanted to be a Grey Warden was the Glory. I am actually shocked by Duncan even recruiting him, but chalk that up to maybe Duncan was really Hammered by the end of the Tournament, what with the free Mead and such.



But Duncan - the WAY he recruits some of the Origins is just wrong. Telling the Noble family that SURE he can get your wife and kid out . . . But it is going to cost you your Kid was lame (Esp when it is obvious that he came for you in the first place).



I think he is a good example of a Grey Warden, he feels (rightly) that the Blight is the ONLY Thing that anyone should be focusing on. When the Blight is over, he would probably go back to being the cool guy from the book, but the fact is the Blight is here now, and crap has to happen NOW.

[Xyan]

Duncan is just one lousy leader. If a rookie like us can tell that Jory is having second thoughts wayyy before the joining, just send him home. And Duncan probably know that Jory has a wife he adores and a kid coming. And he recruit such a men? Desperate? Yes. Just? I think not. Any decent leader knows when to let go of a recruit BEFORE he learns too much. Duncan probably unable or unwillingly or uncaring about his charges. Fail!

About the swords... Jory did draw his sword first. But he was in a defensive posture. Duncan was in the offensive. Jory attack? I see him swinging his sword to push Duncan's sword away, not AT Duncan. Duncan kills to cover up his mistake in character judging.

People argued that Jory had to die to keep the secret. True. But there are so many chances for Duncan to stop Jory. Did Jory waited to long to back out? Yes. But he did not have all the information. His fault is not cowardy.. His fault was misguided or misinformed. But Duncan did have all the information. He took a gamble with Jory and lost. And Jory paid too. Lose-Lose for that poor fellow.

Then how do Grey Wardens get their recruits you ask? Daveth had to. Your PC (depending on your origin) had to. You recruit desperate men. Not naive men. Recruiting desperate men is practical and may even be kind if you see it as giving them a chance to redeem themselves. Recruiting naive men is cheating.

On hindsight, I can understand perfectly why Duncan had to kill Jory. But I cannot deny that it is his poor leadership that killed a decent man.

Modifié par Xyan, 18 novembre 2009 - 02:37 .

[ShadowWolf_Kell]

I can't say I dislike Duncan for what he did. I may not agree with it, but I understand why it was done.



The problem with "sending the recruit home" is that once it happened, it'd open a floodgate and completely undermine what the Grey Wardens stand for, and their purpose. It'd make conscription completely worthless. In essence, it'd destroy the Grey Wardens because any time they recruited some naive sniveling idiot, they'd just pack their bags and go come crying. Eventually their numbers would dwindle to nothing and the next Blight would consume them. Provided they survived long enough.



At any rate, you guys are all arguing semantics when it was nothing more than a plot device for the game, for a rather miniscule portion of the game. The whole purpose was to impress upon you the severity of joining the Grey Wardens, and that there was no going back.



And yes, Jory was cowardly. The only thing he could think of was when he was going to get back to his wife. As an above poster stated, Jory wanted to be a Grey Warden simply for the glory. He didn't care, nor even consider what the real implications were. At least Daveth had a better understanding, *and* was willing to make any sacrifice needed to put an end to the Blight. Jory didn't even care about that.



I found Jowan far more sincere than Jory since Jowan at least put forth the effort knowing what it would cost.

[FlintlockJazz]

Overall, I don't think Jorey was a coward, I mean the guy goes out and fights Darkspawn, otherwise you could say Daveth was a coward for the way he reacted to Morrigan. The problem was that he had other priorities in his life, but had gone along because he felt it was his duty to do so. He would have served better as a normal soldier, and besides is recruiting people against their will really the best thing to do? Forcefully recruiting people against their will and making them go through the Joining is going to result in some twisted and messed up people getting through who are going to resent you for what you did, and first battle will stick a knife in your back while you're fighting those Darkspawn, hence why officers in modern day armies usually don't want penal legions anymore, as they are more a liability than an asset, especially for those who did sign up.



Overall, I'm not impressed with the Grey Warden method of recruitment, I find it deeply flawed, but understand that it was necessary plotwise since they had to find some way of making sure you signed up.

[Mondo_]

To OP: Yes.

[Reader81]

Problem is that He didn't know or smart that's he has to drink blood and has to die, He rather fight combat and trust his skill than a "Drink" a chance, when he see this, it's go too far. Is this changed his mind, no, because in his mind, he don't know he has to drink blood, and he always think combat skill are good to join, but in Gray Warden, this is not a case, it's just drinking blood, he is not willing to sacrifice that kind of risk but he may thinking he willing to sacrifice by use his sword, but this one not, but rather 50 to 50 chance of alive after drink, so he didn't know in his mind untill it's show him in his face, so he didn't changed his mind, he just think it's going too far and no glory. Duncan did warn him but didn't tell him truth of warning,

Duncan need to tell him full truth, if Jory knew a true and keep going but later didn't want to go on, then he would changed mind, but he didn't change his mind because he don't know he was go to drink blood untill 50 to 50 alive after drink cup, he didn't know and didn't warn about that's stuff untill now. Duncan may warning him, but a full truth??? No, of course not, so when Jory see what is a evil thing in by drink blood, then he won't willing go on, since he didn't know it until now. He always thinking proved Gray Warden by combat skill, but this is not, and not glory to him, so Jory have a very good reason back down, and he didn't changed mind, he just don't know what kind of sacrifice, since there is many way of sacrifice, and I think Jory willing to sacrifice to keep homeland safe by using combat skill, not a drink and see if you are die or alive, is why he said there is no glory in it.

Duncan should never get people who have a family or good live to join Gray Warden, no matter how much that's person want to join Gray Warden, think it's just same as join army but greater glory but it's not since Duncan knew join Gray Warden is drink blood and see you alive or die. Duncan should get people who have no life or no hope or no family background to join Gray Warden, it's at least better chance like this happen.

So no Jory do not change his mind, since he didn't know he has to drink blood untill it's show right in his face and he was think it's has to do with combat skill, but it's wasn't.

Jory want trust and control his future and in his own skill, not leave to a cup with blood a power to gave Jory dead or life,

Modifié par Reader81, 15 décembre 2009 - 01:54 .

[Squiggles1334]

I was so glad Duncan made that 6'5" pant-soiler finally shut up about his pregnant trophy wife. He practically did Jory a favor, in my book. Shouldn't have even had to say sorry!

[Thiefy]

Eh, I don't really like Duncan from my human noble perspective - he was a douche that dragged her off when she wanted to fight alongside her parents, even to death.



My drawven princess and female city elf are kind of 50/50 though. Don't hate him but don't respect/trust him. That being said, human noble disliked him more for ganking Jory, while princess thought it was the right thing since he was a coward, and city elf didn't give a crap anyway.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I was actually more disappointed that Daveth died. Daveth had the real mentality and dedication to be a Warden. Before the ritual, when you are talking amongst yourselves and Jory is crapping his pants before Duncan even shows up, Daveth mentions, rather seriously, that sure, he might die, but if it would stop the blight, he'd be willing to do alot more than just die. And he showed little reluctance to drink the darkspawn blood when offered, even though everyone knows before hand that darkspawn blood is a very potent and vile toxin.



So dirty thieving rogue boy shows alot more fortitude and bravery than big knight-man. It's a shame his body couldn't take it.



I do agree, however, the human noble origin is the most bitter one for joining, since you are pretty much offered up in an act of desperation by your dying father. My character was forcibly conscripted, Duncan having to invoke the right of conscription. (He always invokes the right of conscription in any origin if you refuse to join, but I found that in every origin I played bar human noble, my characters were actually quite happy or sufficiently motivated to join).



The key is in the name: GREY Warden. Because morally and ethically, they exist in the grey area. They exist to stop the blight above all else, a noble goal, but are willing to do some pretty nasty things to do so. That is what makes it all the more fascinating in this entire story, the shaky grey zone you constantly live in. Duncan reflects this perfectly. It's clear in his tone of voice and facial expression, that he is aware of how nasty you have to get sometimes, and takes no pleasure, because his awareness of a greater threat gnaws at him constantly. The burden he carries within is great, but he chugs on like the little engine that could.



So I don't think Duncan is an ass or a grey hero, but a very complex, fascinating person. Not that I dig the whole ritual and secrecy, since I was forced into in the first place, but from a broader perspective, I understand the purpose and problems behind it. So I'll shed no tears over Ser Jory getting gutted, as unpleasant as it was to watch.

[Ulicus]

Fudzie wrote...

And the whole deal with keeping the taint secret; it's not about potential recruits, it's about the Chantry, which holds as much, if not more, power over whole countries as country rulers do. If word gets around that the Grey Wardens are tainted, the Chantry would lead a crusade of extermination against them, completely oblivious to the fact that the blights only ended with one grey warden killing an archdemon - because to any person in the setting, destroying ANYTHING with the taint is the right and honorable thing. As a grey warden, you're an abomination against everything that the people you're fighting for hold as holy and valuable. THAT'S why there's no turning back, why the ritual is a secret, and deserters need to be killed as soon as possible; it's not about recruitment, it's about survival of existing members. If even a rumor that the Grey Wardens drink darkspawn blood gets out to the Chantry, that will be taken as them being either pawns of the darkspawn or practicioners of blood magic and the order hunted down to a man.

Except the Chanty knows... at least according to "History of Warden's Keep" (or is it Soldier's Peak?) which discusses the "taint" in Commander Asturian's blood and his impending Calling and was written by Brother Genetivi, Chantry Scholar. 

Besides, the Circle of Magi know about it -- since they're involved in making the darkspawn cocktail -- and if the Circle of Magi know, won't the Chantry know by default? 

[Thiefy]

The key is in the name: GREY Warden. Because morally and ethically, they exist in the grey area.

I don't dispute that, but in my noble pc's eyes, he's a douche for dragging her off. Out of the the characters I made, she's the only one with a solid reason to *not* join the wardens. You'd think survival would be a good reason, but like Sten, she believes there are some things more valuable than just living. Kind of a shame that she always has to lie to Alistair about her true opinion of Duncan.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Disliked him long before the Joining. Playing a Human Noble first made it a pretty difficult opinion to change.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

The key is in the name: GREY Warden. Because morally and ethically, they exist in the grey area.

I don't dispute that, but in my noble pc's eyes, he's a douche for dragging her off. Out of the the characters I made, she's the only one with a solid reason to *not* join the wardens. You'd think survival would be a good reason, but like Sten, she believes there are some things more valuable than just living. Kind of a shame that she always has to lie to Alistair about her true opinion of Duncan.

And my human noble felt the exact same way. Though at odds with her parents, she still loved them, and as far as she was concerned, only two options existed: hunt down Howe and kill him, or make a final stand with her parents and possibly die with them. Storywise, it took her a while before she was finally able to put the blight at the forefront of all her thoughts.

When Alistair asked, she simply gave the in game equivilant of "no comment" and then told him to drop it. But from a PC viewpoint, she was less than enamored with Duncan. But I am speaking from a metagaming standpoint, in looking at the broader picture.

[Taleroth]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

I don't dispute that, but in my noble pc's eyes, he's a douche for dragging her off. Out of the the characters I made, she's the only one with a solid reason to *not* join the wardens. You'd think survival would be a good reason, but like Sten, she believes there are some things more valuable than just living. Kind of a shame that she always has to lie to Alistair about her true opinion of Duncan.

And my human noble felt the exact same way. Though at odds with her parents, she still loved them, and as far as she was concerned, only two options existed: hunt down Howe and kill him, or make a final stand with her parents and possibly die with them. Storywise, it took her a while before she was finally able to put the blight at the forefront of all her thoughts.

When Alistair asked, she simply gave the in game equivilant of "no comment" and then told him to drop it. But from a PC viewpoint, she was less than enamored with Duncan. But I am speaking from a metagaming standpoint, in looking at the broader picture.

High fives, the both of you.  And for many of the others that believe the same.

[BroBear Berbil]

I have mixed feelings about Duncan. Not because of Jory but because of how manipulative he is for the human noble origin. In the other origins he comes off as a pretty good guy but the way he just blackmails your dying father with the promise of your "safety" was despicable.