264 réponses à ce sujet

[Saurel]

I'm not a fan of Duncan. Purely because presentation wise hes boring. In the same way you can tell Loghain and Howe are suppose to be evil , you can tell Duncan is suppose to be a good.



Hes annoying just for that reason.



Aside from that..yeah Im not his biggest fan. Admittedly if people weren't so adamant about the whole Jory pulled a sword thing (come on look at Duncan's eye , he would have killed him anyway). I would be a bit more meh ..

[The Capital Gaultier]

Saurel wrote...

...you can tell Duncan is suppose to be a good.

I missed some serious hints, then.  I thought he was more manipulative and despicable than Morrigan personally.

[Thiefy]

But I am speaking from a metagaming standpoint, in looking at the broader picture.

your absolutely right, but i can't help but favor human noble over my other pc's since i feel my own opinions resonate more strongly within her more than the others. she'll always be special since she techinically popped my bioware cherry.

[asaiasai]

Grey wardens as another poster said operate in the gray areas, and no matter whether you agreed or not with Duncan's decision concerning Jori you the PC will do far worse before the end. Duncan killed one man who was in way over his head, but whether or not Jori knew the specifics of the joining, Jori could not be allowed to walk out of there alive. The joining is kept secret as it should be for obvious reasons, the Grey Wardens take anyone with skill regardless of cast, class or creed, in a lot of ways that makes them a most progressive institution considering the time period. Did Duncan show leadership in his decision to select Jori for recruitment? The joining ritual has a VERY steep learning curve if you aquire my meaning, and because of this you have only one recourse lots and lots of bodies. Jori seemed no different imho that Alllister except in one regard, follow through, it is unfortunate that it is not until later in the game that Allister shows his ass.



Agree or disagree, the simple truth is YOUR body count is signifigantly higher,

Haven an entire village

choice Leilana



Bhelin or Harromont

Caradin or Branka



depending on your choice Connor and Isolde

Jowan



depending on your choice Mages

choice Wynne



Zathrian dalish elf leader or Winterfang



Flemeth or Morrigan (later)



Howe



Loghain

Ser Catherine



Those are just the named ones, that does not include thier retainers and supporters who happened to be with them when your paths crossed. Duncan killed one man for refusing the joining, you have killed many many more and in every case the decision and responsibility was yours. Leadership is a M-fer, but someone has to do it or chaos or the blight reigns.



Asai

[Taleroth]

[quote]asaiasai wrote...

Haven an entire village[/quote] They attacked me, wouldn't have even usheated a sword if they hadn't assaulted my party.



[quote]choice Leilana[/quote]Don't recall attacking anyone there.




[quote]Bhelin or Harromont[/quote]Didn't attack either of them.



[quote]Caradin or Branka[/quote]Branka attacked me, not me her.




[quote]depending on your choice Connor and Isolde[/quote]They both lived.



[quote]Jowan[/quote]I never hurt the guy and I argued for his freedom.




[quote]depending on your choice Mages[/quote]They're doing fine.



[quote]choice Wynne[/quote]She's okay, too.




[quote]Zathrian dalish elf leader or Winterfang[/quote] I didn't touch either, they chose to sacrifice themselves.




[quote]Flemeth or Morrigan (later)[/quote]Umm.... okay, I did provoke Flemeth.  But she was specifically planning to kill others, so that's not the same!




[quote]Howe[/quote]He attacked first, would have let him live if I'd been given the choice.




[quote]Loghain[/quote]He's doing fine.



[quote]Ser Catherine[/quote]She attacked first, tried to get her to move aside.



[quote]Those are just the named ones, that does not include thier retainers and supporters who happened to be with them when your paths crossed. Duncan killed one man for refusing the joining, you have killed many many more and in every case the decision and responsibility was yours. Leadership is a M-fer, but someone has to do it or chaos or the blight reigns.[/quote]The only people I killed that didn't incite the attack were... Flemeth.  That's literally it.  Don't claim I chose anyone else's death in the game.

It's not been my decision to be attacked by people and keep them from killing my character.  Never killed anyone fleeing.

Modifié par Taleroth, 15 décembre 2009 - 04:26 .

[SnakeStrike8]

Bovinian King wrote...

I mean, I did like him up until he killed Ser Jory.  Jory was only wanting his family to be protected in the world and when he brought his sword out, it was likely only as a deterrent, to stop Duncan from forcing the blood or attacking Jory. 

It was completely unnecessary to kill Jory, one can see from his body language that he wasn't meaning unsheathing his sword to be a threatening gesture, he seemed nervous and scared, not hostile or angry and he only began swinging when Duncan provoked him!

Either way, it was just a jerk move on his part.

Regardless, one thing is certain: Jory did not want to die. That makes him a poor soldier. He should never have joined Eamon's knights if he wasn't ready to face getting slotted, either by darkspawn blades or darkspawn blood.

[Squiggles1334]

I think I'm gonna fire up Dragon Age and reload my save game right before the joining just so I can watch that sad sack Jory get skewered again for a laugh. I think I look pretty cool with white pupils too.

[asaiasai]

[quote]Taleroth wrote...

[quote]asaiasai wrote...

Haven an entire village[/quote] They attacked me, wouldn't have even usheated a sword if they hadn't assaulted my party.

That is not an option you are allowed to consider, and that answer is a cop out, who attacked who matters not YOU slaughter an entire village in order to get the ashes to heal Eamon. You need Eamon therefore the village in isn your way and must be moved or the blight wins.



[quote]choice Leilana[/quote]Don't recall attacking anyone there.

Depending on the choice you made Reaver spec and destroy the ashes, which provokes Leliana into a fight, choice means you had a choice whether you excercised it or not the choice is there depending on what YOU want to do.




[quote]Bhelin or Harromont[/quote]Didn't attack either of them.

It is not necessary to attack either of them, no matter who you decide to crown the other dies, either you crown Bhelin and he orders Harromonts exicution, or you crown Harromont and Bhelin attacks you, either way you have blood on your hands.





[quote]Caradin or Branka[/quote]Branka attacked me, not me her.

Again another cop out answer you have to pick, picking one will force the other to attack you, which means you have to kill one, the choice is irrelevant for the point i am making, again your hands are not clean.




[quote]depending on your choice Connor and Isolde[/quote]They both lived.

As did they in every game i played so far, but the choice is there and as some folks have taken the choice, it is a possibility i felt needed to make the list, and if you want the Blood magic spec, you trade Connor away at a later time.



[quote]Jowan[/quote]I never hurt the guy and I argued for his freedom.

Unless you flung open Jowan's cell the first time you meet him and tell him to beat it you are responsible for his life, the fact that most folks elected to keep him there to USE later only sharpens my point. Regardless of how hard you argued for his life it was forfiet the moment Irving and Greagor caught you him and Lilly emerging from the basement.



[quote]depending on your choice Mages[/quote]They're doing fine.

Again there was a choice to either side with the templars killing the mages and Wynne, or side with the mages, i included it into my list because not every player sided with the mages.




[quote]choice Wynne[/quote]She's okay, too.

See above






[quote]Zathrian dalish elf leader or Winterfang[/quote] I didn't touch either, they chose to sacrifice themselves.

Really? If i remember the dialog options you have the choice to side with the Lady or Zathrian, if you chose to break the curse YOU force Zathrian to capitulate. You can choose to cull one side or the other and some players have so it makes the list.




[quote]Flemeth or Morrigan (later)[/quote]Umm.... okay, I did provoke Flemeth.  But she was specifically planning to kill others, so that's not the same!

Who was Flemeth planning to kill, Morrigan some folks myself included would consider that a public service. No Flemeth is one of the games heros, she saved you and Allister from death on the tower and was repaid  for that kindness by death. You the player are forced to make a choice Flemeth now or Morrigan later at Flemeth's hands. In my opinion that decision is one of the very few clean decisions get to make in the game, and was an easy one for me i lied to Morrigan 7 out of the last 8 games.




[quote]Howe[/quote]He attacked first, would have let him live if I'd been given the choice.

Do not be silly, you can not even consider the possibility of allowing the most powerful and ardent supporter of your enemy to live and continue to hamper you goals. Howe was a dead man from the minute he attacked the Cousland castle, imprisioned Rhiordan, or the templar chasing Jowan, there was no other option. You still killed him for what ever reasons, the reasons are irrelevant, you killed him and his blood is on your hands.




[quote]Loghain[/quote]He's doing fine.

Is he? Did you accept Morrigan's ritual putting off till tomorrow what you should have taken care of today? Did you allow him to take the final blow so that you could live? Did you execute him to keep Allister's favor? These are options that the player must decide on regardless of the choice YOU made the options are still there and he made the list.




[quote]Ser Catherine[/quote]She attacked first, tried to get her to move aside.

Again letting a powerful and ardent supporter of your enemy to live is a poor decision. You had to know that she would not, mu last playthrough human noble rogue level 4 persuasion ans 40 cunning and i still had to kill her before the landsmeet. Justify it how ever you want she is dead and you are not and her blood is splattered all over your armor.





[quote]Those are just the named ones, that does not include thier retainers and supporters who happened to be with them when your paths crossed. Duncan killed one man for refusing the joining, you have killed many many more and in every case the decision and responsibility was yours. Leadership is a M-fer, but someone has to do it or chaos or the blight reigns.[/quote]The only people I killed that didn't incite the attack were... Flemeth.  That's literally it.  Don't claim I chose anyone else's death in the game.

It's not been my decision to be attacked by people and keep them from killing my character.  Never killed anyone fleeing.[/quote]

Again this post is not really specific to one player it encompasses quite a few examples from my own personal 7 complete plays as well as what i have gleaned from reading the forums for the last couple months. My point is this that no matter how you try and justify it your hands are not clean at the end. You have done what you must to organize and pull heads out of asses to recognize what the real evil is. Blood magic, abominations, evil spirits, werewolves, narcissists, all of these things coexist and are in no way as dangerous as a blight. According to the lore and Duncan, it takes the land years to recover from a blight, and i am sure it has more to do with the damage to the land than even to the people or the cities. When you are standing over the archdemon ready to strike the final blow, the realization should hit you that YOU for better or worse are Duncan now do what you were made to do.

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 15 décembre 2009 - 05:58 .

[Cabidela]

at least he said "i'm sorry"...

[Squiggles1334]

Cabidela wrote...

at least he said "i'm sorry"...

It should have been "You're welcome."

[Darthnemesis2]

I dont, in anyway, see what Duncan did as wrong. The reasons are numerous, and stated by people earlier in this thread. I'll just name my top reasons:

1. Most importantly, Jory knew there was risk well in advance. He wanted glory, but wasn't willing to make the necessary sacrifices.

2. Jory drew his blade and attacked first. I don't care if he was backing away, he drew his sword. The first rule anyone learns when in basic training - dont point your weapon at anything you do not wish to kill.

3. He was too tied down with his pre-Warden life. While it may have been poor judgement to recruit Jory, seeing him as we did at the Joining, he clearly had expressed a willingness to join the Wardens at some time - otherwise he never would have fought in the Grand Melee. He backed out of the deal too late.



As for how Duncan treats the Human Noble... this was my first playthrough and I disagree that what he did was wrong. He put it plainly enough, he came to Highever and was promised a recruit. The one he had chosen was left to defend the gates, and the Blight demanded a replacement. He offered the survival of the only known surviving Cousland, which I would say is a fair deal. Yes, my PC wanted to gut Howe on the spot or at least stand by his parents till the end, but that would be a waste. He was given the chance to become something more powerful, something that would elevate to a place where he could still fight Howe, but also play a part in the larger scheme of things.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

As for how Duncan treats the Human Noble... this was my first playthrough and I disagree that what he did was wrong. He put it plainly enough, he came to Highever and was promised a recruit. The one he had chosen was left to defend the gates, and the Blight demanded a replacement. He offered the survival of the only known surviving Cousland, which I would say is a fair deal. Yes, my PC wanted to gut Howe on the spot or at least stand by his parents till the end, but that would be a waste. He was given the chance to become something more powerful, something that would elevate to a place where he could still fight Howe, but also play a part in the larger scheme of things.

Duncan was the one in trouble at Castle Cousland - more so than the player character.  Despite his vastly better experience and Grey Warden training, Duncan could not have escaped the castle without someone who knew the architecture and layout of the surrounding land.  The main character could have escaped and murdered Howe without assistance from the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 15 décembre 2009 - 07:44 .

[Squiggles1334]

Taleroth wrote...
The only people I killed that didn't incite the attack were... Flemeth.  That's literally it.  Don't claim I chose anyone else's death in the game.

It's not been my decision to be attacked by people and keep them from killing my character.  Never killed anyone fleeing.

For a self-proclaimed Bruce Campbell of Dragon Age, this track record leaves much to be desired.

[Darthnemesis2]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Duncan was the one in trouble at Castle Cousland - more so than the player character.  Despite his vastly better experience and Grey Warden training, Duncan could not have escaped the castle without someone who knew the architecture and layout of the surrounding land.  The main character could have escaped and murdered Howe without assistance from the Grey Wardens.

Not so. Duncan was with Bryce Cousland when they got to the servant's exit. He could have left any time he wanted. He stayed to help him find the PC and Lady Cousland/ defend the Teyrn.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Duncan was the one in trouble at Castle Cousland - more so than the player character.  Despite his vastly better experience and Grey Warden training, Duncan could not have escaped the castle without someone who knew the architecture and layout of the surrounding land.  The main character could have escaped and murdered Howe without assistance from the Grey Wardens.

Not so. Duncan was with Bryce Cousland when they got to the servant's exit. He could have left any time he wanted. He stayed to help him find the PC and Lady Cousland/ defend the Teyrn.

That still does not help him leave Highever or the surrounding country.  Not that he couldn't - just that a well-armed person may be suspicious as an escapee from Castle Cousland.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

But I am speaking from a metagaming standpoint, in looking at the broader picture.

your absolutely right, but i can't help but favor human noble over my other pc's since i feel my own opinions resonate more strongly within her more than the others. she'll always be special since she techinically popped my bioware cherry.

Yes, me too. At first, I was not looking forward to being a noble, but because of the game, it was the only way I could play a human rogue. I found myself pleasantly surprised, however. So yes, that first playthrough and the subsequent opinion my character had of the Wardens and how she got there gave me a heavy dose of reality and a clearer picture of what the Wardens really are, and just what Duncan was willing to do.

That opinion, however, was more difficult to hold onto in playing the mage origin, where my mage found Duncan to be a personal liberator, as, for whatever his purpose, was getting her out of the tower and away from a life in the circle that was little more than pampered incarceration. So in that playthrough, i found another side of the coin.

What was funny is that my character actually found Ser Jory's death fitting, because all that time he was going on about what an honor, how he actually wanted to be a Warden, how great and wonderful it was, he even sought out recruitment by Duncan. Only at ther last minute when he realized what he gotten himself into, did he chicken out. Had Duncan not ran him through, she would have probably done it, because out of the three recruits there, he was the only one who had the active choice in becomming one, and was gushing with enthusiasm just hours before.

Later in the game, especially in the deep roads, when she sees just what is in store for her in 30 or so years, her personal bitterness increases.

[Saurel]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Duncan was the one in trouble at Castle Cousland - more so than the player character.  Despite his vastly better experience and Grey Warden training, Duncan could not have escaped the castle without someone who knew the architecture and layout of the surrounding land.  The main character could have escaped and murdered Howe without assistance from the Grey Wardens.

Not so. Duncan was with Bryce Cousland when they got to the servant's exit. He could have left any time he wanted. He stayed to help him find the PC and Lady Cousland/ defend the Teyrn.

That still does not help him leave Highever or the surrounding country.  Not that he couldn't - just that a well-armed person may be suspicious as an escapee from Castle Cousland.

It doesnt help that you and your mom were able to kill 30 guards by yourself... It really makes you feel like

"Duncan! you really couldnt have saved that little kid, I know you could kick my ass in two seconds. My mom and I were able to kill 30 of these bastards!"

[Squiggles1334]

You know the one thing that Duncan could have done to make himself even more badass than he already was?

Shaved his beard.

[Estelindis]

For what it's worth, my character really hated Duncan for the first few hours of the game. She was a City Elf and felt royally ****ed at him for not doing more to help when Vaughan kidnapped her and the other women. She felt that, if not for his vaunted Grey Warden neutrality, Nelaros and Nola might be alive, and Shianni might not have been raped. And to intervene more seriously only at the end of all that, so that he can get what he wanted all along (her as a Grey Warden) when she wanted to stay and be punished for Vaughan's death in the hope that her people wouldn't suffer instead (admittedly, maybe a vain and stupid hope)... Grr. When he then went and killed Jory in the joining, it fit right in with what she thought of him. It was obvious Jory was afraid but Daveth wasn't. If he had even the vaguest inkling of the vaunted Warden strategic ability, he should have given Jory the cup first.

Of course, from a player's perspective, I can see that the PC *must* be recruited for the story to proceed, and the two possibilities other than succeeding at the Joining ritual must be presented in order to dramatically increase the tension and to remove the non-PCs from the recruit pool. But, from my character's perspective, it was exceedingly dubious. Still felt sorry when Duncan died, though, particularly when Morrigan described what happened on the battlefield...

From the point of the other origin stories, I think Duncan was generally presented in a sympathetic fashion.  The sole exception, I felt (apart from City Elf, which I already mentioned), was the Human Noble origin.  I mean, he blackmails you into joining the Wardens as you watch your father bleed out...  I thought that was fairly despicable.  (I know the Wardens do what they have to, and all that, but it doesn't change my *feelings*...)

Modifié par Estelindis, 15 décembre 2009 - 04:38 .

[Jappert]

He was both fat and annoying... Good riddance imo.

[Kiln223]

Alright I'll start by saying that I thought Jory was a coward and annoying from the part where you meet the wounded soldier and he starts freaking out.  Now apart from the fact that I didn't like him I thought Duncan was a ****** for killing him.  For those of you saying Duncan didn't have a choice and it was necessary I disagree.  Lets revisit for a moment how this plays out...

Duncan: You may now drink the blood.
Daveth: Hell yeah, semper fi motherfu...
*Daveth chokes, his eyes roll into back of his head, and he dies*
Jory: Whoa no way in hell bro.
*Jory backs away*
Duncan: Drink the poisonous blood.
Jory: I don't want to, I'm not gonna do it.
*Jory draws sword in defense*
*Duncan draws sword, eyes filled with bloodlust*
Jory: Dude not cool, I'm not drinking that blood.
Duncan: Well guess I gotta kill you then.
*Duncan stabs Jory*
*Jory is dead*
Duncan: I'm sorry...I totally didn't wanna do that. 
Player: Yeah okay I'll drink it...

Modifié par Kiln223, 15 décembre 2009 - 04:51 .

[Elvhen Veluthil]

Duncan killing Jory was my first "what the hell" in the game. Totally out of place and an ugly thing to do too. If I could fight Duncan to save the other guy I would. No one kills people like that when I am around (I roleplay a good character always), unless you are the evil I am after.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Rattleface wrote...

So instead of subduing him [Duncan showed more than enough finesse to do this], he killed him?
The idiot was asking for it, sure, but he was also hysterical and probably could have been reasoned with.
I'm not saying Duncan is the bad guy, but it was a dick thing to do and pretty rash for someone like him.

There is no turning back... Those words are never meant to be spoken and found hollow. Duncan told him that. Jory pushed the matter.

The Angry One is right, you don't pull arms on your CO with intent of desertion and expect to walk away or even a trial.

[majarohana]

I am on my second play-through as a human noble (first time warrior, this time rogue), and with both of them, even though yes, they would rather stay with the folks and die, or track down Howe and exact revenge, the key thing in my PCs' minds is what her father said to her "Couslands always do their duty." And when she had earlier spoken with Bryce about Duncan, he had said that if it came to it, although he didn't want to lose her to the Wardens, they would do their duty......

and she sees Jory as completely failing in respects to doing his duty, so will she sympathizes and feels badly about his death, she still trusts Duncan, and thinks he is as good a man as he can be, considering.

[ginzaen]

Rattleface wrote...

So instead of subduing him [Duncan showed more than enough finesse to do this], he killed him?
The idiot was asking for it, sure, but he was also hysterical and probably could have been reasoned with.
I'm not saying Duncan is the bad guy, but it was a dick thing to do and pretty rash for someone like him.

Duncan does what he has to do, he did say he was sorry!.