264 réponses à ce sujet

[Suron]

To those of you defending Duncan with that IDIOT excuse of a "medieval setting" crap. It was also acceptable in those times for nobles/lords of certain lands to do what they wanted with women about to get married...actually what the guy in the City Elf origin is doing.



So if you're defending Duncan's MURDERING Jory..then you're also saying the rape and abuse the city elf goes through is ok....you have no reason to hold a grudge against the Arl's son and shouldn't kill him...afterall he was only exercising his right as a noble/lord.



afterall it was common, accepted, and "ok" in medieval times...if you say that I'm wrong about slavery and rape being ok then, since we're talking about knowing what it was like in medieval times, then you're an obvious hipocrit...and you're ENTIRE argument defending Duncan is null and void.



So..Duncan defenders...rape...mmmm..good stuff huh?

[Blayzereborn]

Oh yes, there certainly *is* some middle ground in this whole situation. It's called having Daveth as an actual party member.

[Knal1991]

aside from the jory killing thing, Duncan is pretty mean....he does anything to recruit someone...



when I played human noble origin he pretty much forces you to come with him...., you must agree to join or I will not safe you....



in almost every origin he saves you on account of joining, or else he will invoke right of conscription.... that's completely idiotic imo, some of the origins could easily kill Duncan for it, looking at their experience and skill.....Though I didn't mind it much with the other origins, the human noble made me dislike him...

[Serion amakiir]

Suron wrote...

To those of you defending Duncan with that IDIOT excuse of a "medieval setting" crap. It was also acceptable in those times for nobles/lords of certain lands to do what they wanted with women about to get married...actually what the guy in the City Elf origin is doing.

So if you're defending Duncan's MURDERING Jory..then you're also saying the rape and abuse the city elf goes through is ok....you have no reason to hold a grudge against the Arl's son and shouldn't kill him...afterall he was only exercising his right as a noble/lord.

afterall it was common, accepted, and "ok" in medieval times...if you say that I'm wrong about slavery and rape being ok then, since we're talking about knowing what it was like in medieval times, then you're an obvious hipocrit...and you're ENTIRE argument defending Duncan is null and void.

So..Duncan defenders...rape...mmmm..good stuff huh?

lol that would have been my next argument m8

cause u cant say that taken ppls lives is okay but having your way with a commoners daughter when u r a nobel is a bad thing ROFL 

[Serion amakiir]

susanstohelit thank you so much for the tip now i can qout ppl wich makes me more powerfull muhahahahahahaha fear my mighty pen....ahem....keyboard )

[Suron]

Serion amakiir wrote...

Suron wrote...

To those of you defending Duncan with that IDIOT excuse of a "medieval setting" crap. It was also acceptable in those times for nobles/lords of certain lands to do what they wanted with women about to get married...actually what the guy in the City Elf origin is doing.

So if you're defending Duncan's MURDERING Jory..then you're also saying the rape and abuse the city elf goes through is ok....you have no reason to hold a grudge against the Arl's son and shouldn't kill him...afterall he was only exercising his right as a noble/lord.

afterall it was common, accepted, and "ok" in medieval times...if you say that I'm wrong about slavery and rape being ok then, since we're talking about knowing what it was like in medieval times, then you're an obvious hipocrit...and you're ENTIRE argument defending Duncan is null and void.

So..Duncan defenders...rape...mmmm..good stuff huh?

lol that would have been my next argument m8

cause u cant say that taken ppls lives is okay but having your way with a commoners daughter when u r a nobel is a bad thing ROFL 

Rape is bad.  Murdering is bad.  What Duncan did is no better/worse then what the Arl's son does to our little City Elf (or his bride/Shianni/etc.)  Afterall they're argument is "in medieval times it was common and ok to do so" well..so was rape..slavery..a lord having his way with any woman in "lorded" over's especially on the night of her wedding.

But undoubtedly The Duncan Defenders ™ will come in here with some weak argument as to why the killing counts but the rape/slavery/etc is still wrong...as I said..their arguments hold NO water and are null and void...unless one of them actually wants to make sense and agree that along with the "drawing sword=duel=ok" idiotic argument by saying that rape (in the game) is also ok...since it's a Medieval setting.

[Captain Jazz]

There is... no turning back.

Think about it, if they let people just back out after watching the first person drink the blood, spasm and die, those people are going to go and tell people all about what you go through when you join, about the 1 in 3 chance of surviving the ritual... nobody would join, the last of the wardens would die, the next blight would come along and Thedas would fall.

Sure, it's pretty **** of Duncan to kill Jory (Jory drew first btw) but this is one secret initiation which cannot be made public. Ends do not always, or even often, justify means, but in this case? Secrecy is paramount. Either you join the Wardens or you die, one way or another.

[fightright2]

DarthWarduke wrote...

Ariella wrote...

DarthWarduke wrote...

Duncan is kind of a scumbag IMO. He basically drags you away from your home, forces you to some battle. Then he never mentions anything about the joining ceremony and it involves drinking blood and people dying. Sounds like David Koresh and the branch davidians in waco texas to me.

Comparing Ducan to David Koresh, is silly. Ducan is the commander of an established order which had saved Thedas four prior times versus David Koresh who claimed he was the Messiah.

Ok then, I will compare him to Jim Jones.  Lets jump back to 1978, remember that little incident in Jonestown?  Guy shows up, "Hi everybody I'm Jim and I have a proposition for you.  lets all join my little group known as the peoples temple and it will be grand.  Here.. have a glass of punch"... shhh dont tell everyone it is laced with cyanide.

If you are going to compare him to a real life maniac then get your facts straight. EVeryone in Jim Jones's cult knew they were drinking it. That's why they did the children first. So they wouldn't be scared.
And Jim Jones wasn't trying to save the world from some evil beings trying to kill off every race in the world.
Jim Jones was doing everything for his own glory.

My husband is a history geek and I have sat beside him and watched more documentaries
than I care to mention.

In Jim Jones's cult, there was not ever a choice to back out. Many tried and died. And those that did the killing were pissed that they betrayed the "family" and that they didn't have enough faith.

The comparison is so reaching.


Jory had ample oppurtunities to leave before.
He left his family and wife (cutting ties to his family) to be a Grey Warden.
He was warned that the ritual was dangerous.
He was doing it for the glory of being a Grey warden.
Duncan did not strike him with anger or hate.

But really all it boils down to is that Jory was a coward from the beginning, sought only the glory to being a Grey Warden despite his fears. And he failed to back out when he was given the choice and oppurtunities.
He brought it upon himself.

The lesson learned here is-
There's no shame in walking away. Don't let your foolpride lead you into making decisions you have doubts about in the first place.

[Serion amakiir]

it really dosent matter to me that duncan stabt jory in the gut....he said he was sorry. hehe



jory does mention when u talk to him that when the blight is over he intens to return to highever to his wife so i wouldent say that he has cut all of his ties to his famlie.



what tics me off with duncan is that he is a user and abuser just trye and play all the origins through using options that tells duncan to go **** himself and see where that leads u, only in city elf origin is he "less" evil but that is more the circumstanses then it is duncan.

[fightright2]

I found this on youtube.

Duncan states that "You were called upon to submit yourself to the taint for the greater good."



Jory did not submit himself as he mislead Duncan that he was willing to do so.



When choosing to say to Duncan "I still can't believe that you killed Ser Jory."

Duncan responds saying

"Ser Jory was warned there was no turning back as were you all. When he went for his blade, he left me no choice. It gave me no pleasure to end his life. The Blight demands sacrifices from us all. Thankfully you stand here as proof, they're not all made in vain..."







Jory says, "If they had warned me."

This statement is misleading.

Duncan states that he was warned as all they were.



Jory says,"There's no glory in this."

That was his motivation all along to becoming a Grey Warden.

[Suron]

fightright2 wrote...

I found this on youtube.
Duncan states that "You were called upon to submit yourself to the taint for the greater good."

Jory did not submit himself as he mislead Duncan that he was willing to do so.

When choosing to say to Duncan "I still can't believe that you killed Ser Jory."
Duncan responds saying
"Ser Jory was warned there was no turning back as were you all. When he went for his blade, he left me no choice. It gave me no pleasure to end his life. The Blight demands sacrifices from us all. Thankfully you stand here as proof, they're not all made in vain..."



Jory says, "If they had warned me."
This statement is misleading.
Duncan states that he was warned as all they were.

Jory says,"There's no glory in this."
That was his motivation all along to becoming a Grey Warden.

um...I don't recall ANY of my (6 plays) characters being warned prior to having the goblet shoved in my face.

Jory's "if they had warned me" holds more merit then Duncan's "he was warned as were you all"

yah..when the goblet was stuck in our faces.

at least this member of The Duncan Defenders tried citing valid sources..even if it failed.

[fightright2]

At the bonfire. They spoke of it.

Select - Now will you tell us what the ritual is all about.

Modifié par fightright2, 23 janvier 2010 - 06:01 .

[Suron]

fightright2 wrote...

At the bonfire. They spoke of it.

Select - Now will you tell us what the ritual is all about.

yah and notice how you're still not given an option to try and refuse to do it?  And what if you don't take that option..you're in -fact- NOT warned about it.

nice try

[fightright2]

That's because you agreed and Daveth AND Jory as well.



Jory states "I agree. Let's have it done."



There is no option because all agreed PRIOR to the joining.

[fightright2]

go to 1:22 you can also see where Duncan states " I will not lie ........." when you select [Now tell us what the ritual is all about].

So Duncan did in fact warn and did not deceive how dangerous it was.

Modifié par fightright2, 23 janvier 2010 - 06:19 .

[Serion amakiir]

fightright2 wrote...

At the bonfire. They spoke of it.

Select - Now will you tell us what the ritual is all about.

where does duncan mention that when u gobble darkspawn blood u only have 30 years to live and will eventualy die from wraking pain or in the deeproads?

[fightright2]

Your reaching for specifics. It's understood by all of Fereldan that Grey Wardens exist only to fight the darkspawn. And that all have so far died doing so. Even among the dwarves it's known that they go to their death fighting. The life of the Grey Wardens was never known to be like that of military reserves. To come and go when needed. Otherwise, they wouldn't require that you cut all ties to your family in the first place.


Still would it have mattered anyways? I mean you accept the fate that comes with being a Grey Warden knowing that your end will no doubt come by fighting the Blight. And so it has with every Grey Warden before you. Your life prior no longer exists. 

It's a steep price to pay to keep Ferelden safe. You come to the joining knowing you are sacrificing your life for the lives of many.

Modifié par fightright2, 23 janvier 2010 - 08:37 .

[fightright2]

Duncan does state at 1:34
"I will not lie; We grey Wardens pay a heavy price to become what we are. Fate may decree that you pay yours now rather than later."



So there is price to pay beyond surviving the joining. That is clear.

Modifié par fightright2, 23 janvier 2010 - 08:46 .

[RangerSG]

Suron wrote...

To those of you defending Duncan with that IDIOT excuse of a "medieval setting" crap. It was also acceptable in those times for nobles/lords of certain lands to do what they wanted with women about to get married...actually what the guy in the City Elf origin is doing.

So if you're defending Duncan's MURDERING Jory..then you're also saying the rape and abuse the city elf goes through is ok....you have no reason to hold a grudge against the Arl's son and shouldn't kill him...afterall he was only exercising his right as a noble/lord.

afterall it was common, accepted, and "ok" in medieval times...if you say that I'm wrong about slavery and rape being ok then, since we're talking about knowing what it was like in medieval times, then you're an obvious hipocrit...and you're ENTIRE argument defending Duncan is null and void.

So..Duncan defenders...rape...mmmm..good stuff huh?

No, I'm not saying it was "OK." Rape was immoral by any standard in Medeival society. And even most societies that had prima nachte rights thought it was distasteful in the extreme. Cultural context matters, thank you. And Ferelden society is anti-slavery. You see that in game specifically.

1) Did Jory draw steel? Yes, and he did so first. Even after he's warned there's no turning back, he still is waving his blade around.

2) If I drew a gun and pointed it at you, would you consider that an offensive act? Why is drawing steel different in your mind? And if it is, let's be clear, in Medeival society, it was not. That is the equivalent in itself of "aggravated assault" in our law books. And since he's accepted Duncan as a commander, yes, "Treason" as well. Self-defense is entirely acceptable in the first. Death sentences are 'still' acceptable in the second. So no, it's not murder. It's a legal killing at worst, a rightful judgment for a crime to anyone who would think about it in fact.

3) Duncan warns you all ahead of time that once you start the Joining, you have to go through with it. Jory chooses to go ahead anyway, and then gets cold feet. Your PC, like Daveth, has nowhere to go, in all likelihood. Jory has a choice, and Duncan is actually pretty consistent about leaving the door open for him if you follow the dialogues until he's seen the ritual.

4) I've played PCs who've liked Duncan and resented him. In-character, I can see both justified. A lot of it is dependant on how willing you played your PC in coming to the GW. That said, claims he "murdered" Jory are ludicrous by 'any' objective standard. Objectively, I think he would be a hard person to know, unless you were someone like Alistair he held close. But I'd respect him, and want him as my commander anyday. Because I know he'd do anything he could to get the job done. And in the context of what his job is, that's a good thing.

[Suron]

it's funny to see The Duncan Defenders unite...even if wrong.



he's a murderer.



though I am a little concerned you excuse rape and slavery..that's from medieval times too.



can't pick and choose excuses.



whatever..color it how you want..Duncan murdered a scared and retreating Jory. Duncan is a dishonorable man..and deserved to die.



how many origins does he resort to crap behavior to get you to join? He's anything BUT honorable.



and again..for the last time..he's a murderer..Jory I'm sure wasn't the first. He killed a soon-to-be father, because he started to panic a little..yah that's honorable isn't it?



I'm done with this thread regardless lol...arguing with The Duncan Defenders is like arguing with a devout Star Wars geek when you point out inconsistancies in the prequels.

[RangerSG]

Wow, you failed to interact with my argument at all, and then repeated an utterly baseless charge that "I" actually answered.



Nice reply. Next time I'll know that you're trolling and not making a serious attempt at a response.

[fightright2]

Awww, poor little Jory didn't know what he was facing when he accepted the fate eve after being forewarned when he signed up to leave his life and family behind in favor of the glory of being a Grey Warden in the first place?
And that dastardly devil Duncan loves going around killing potentials when they refuse after giving a fair warning that there is no turning back. He wasn't sorry that he had to defend himself against a glory hounding coward.
Sarcasm implied.


Mr., watch what you say.
Unless YOU have been raped you don't have the right to throw in a rape card as your so called excuse that by supporting Duncan we also condone and support a rapist.

The lesson here folks is that it is more honorable to concede defeat in a debate when there was ample evidence shown then to ridicule those that don't agree and slander them as being a supporter of something so evil as rape and abuse.
Especially, when you have to deflect the proof by scrambling at other things claiming that we "Duncan Defenders" are basically in support of rape and slavery.

Rape supporter? REALLY?

For one who would stoop so low to claim that, that in itself is more dishonorable.

I am thoroughly done with this thread.

Modifié par fightright2, 23 janvier 2010 - 10:00 .

[kasanza]

It's a heavy price to pay. All the Grey Wardens end up dead early. You either pay the toll before or after becoming one. I liked Jory and Daveth a lot. That part of the game is my favorite. That's what I love about this game, all the grey areas. Getting inside the head of people in times of war and impending doom and the rationalizations and sacrifices they must endure are brutal. Jory was justified in his actions as was Duncan. It really came down to who killed whom at that point. Remember, the Wardens are a tool. They do what it takes to perform a task for the protection of the masses. It was people like Cailan and Jory that got swept up in the romance of slaying Darkspawn. Duncan's demeaner was always stern and matter-of-fact. He wasn't about honor, he was all about doing his job. What Duncan did wasn't about personal gain or gratification nor was it an act of passion. He could not let the secret of the Wardens out. It was his duty. He could no more go back on his duty as Jory could've gone back on his duty as a knight of Redcliffe to protect Arl Eamon's lands from danger. Duncan is no more a murderer than any soldier of any army. You are called to duty and you dedicate yourself to the protection of your people. It was unfortunate that Jory and Daveth had to be sacrificed for the protection of all Ferelden, but that was the price. Even Duncan and the other Wardens ended up being sacrificed shorlty thereafter.

Modifié par kasanza, 23 janvier 2010 - 10:35 .

[kasanza]

 sorry about this post, I meant to edit the one above.

Modifié par kasanza, 23 janvier 2010 - 10:24 .

[What a Twist]

The grey wardens do whatever it takes. They have to put aside all of their emotions, pride, and honor.
By allowing what happened in the alienage and highever to play out, he got to see that you were a capable fighter. I'm sure duncan knows what he allows to happen is wrong, it may kill him on the inside knowing that he can stop it. However he knows what being a grey warden is all about; sacrefice for the greater good.

It doesn't matter how much a few people suffer, if the human race is kept alive by their suffering. Thats what being a grey warden is all about, you suffer through the joining, you fight for 30 years and then you die. At all costs, stop the blight. If your family has to die to stop the blight, let hem die.

I don't think duncan is a saint, he might not even be a good man. What he is good at though, is being a grey warden. If the grey wardens had to stab 500 babies to death with knives carved from puppy skulls, they would do it and move on.

Modifié par What a Twist, 23 janvier 2010 - 10:27 .