176 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The extent of the US decision was this:

• Warden wants to kill Archdemon and get rid of his soul entirely.
• Warden wants to make heroic death.
• Warden dies and is remembered as a hero.

That does not mean that the Warden was able to make Morrigan stop pursuing her goals. I dislike that people think the Warden can do that. There wasn't a persuade option to get her to stay with you and not do the DR some other way. You just said "No". How often does saying "no" actually get somebody to stop doing something they want to do?

There are ways the OGB can exist and the Warden can remain dead. What you want and what actually happens are not the same thing. The Warden wanted the Archdemon to die. What actually happened was out of his control. There is no way for Thedas to cut open a dead Warden and say "Welp, he definitely had an Archdemon's soul inside his body."

How exactly is the OGB gonna come about from a female Warden who refuses the ritual? Does Morrigan mind control Alistair or Loghain into doing it off screen? I highly doubt that. Morrigan might want to do it. The Warden doesn't. So on that note, Morrigan is SOL as far as junior is concerned. The only way the OGB can be created is if Morrigan performs this specific ritual with a male Warden at that specific time. Morrigan informs you it has to be done then and there.

And again, you are missing the point. How is the Warden saying no stopping Morrigan from doing anything? You are wrong if you think the kid was her goal. It was an important part of a plan, but was not the end plan. Morrigans plans continue without the kid. She is not happy about it, but oh well.

And of course, your assumptions of why a Warden would refuse such a ritual are pretty narrow in scope. There are far more reasons why a Warden would not want to do the ritual other than a death wish. And it is not only the Warden who can die on the AD: Alistair and Loghain are chosen quite often, especially Loghain.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...


Soldiers die from wartime injuries. However, slaying an archdemon is not a "wartime injury".  We are talking about two souls being destroyed entirely.

No but Garahel was killed by the Fourth Blight's Archdemon's death throes. There was a massive explosion from Urthemiel's death that could've killed the Warden by sending him flying and becoming a Riordan pancake. Or up against a wall, where he suffered from trauma to the head.

That the Archdemon is dead to the public doesn't mean he actually is. That the Warden died doesn't mean he died due to sharing a mental and spiritual apartment with the Archdemon. It's what the Warden was hoping would happen.

And Morrigan being denied her ritual does not stop her pursuing her goals at all. She still continues on whatever she is doing, though she is doing so without the old godbaby. A setback, but not an end or deterrant to her goal. The kid was important to her plans, but it was not her sole plan. Her plans continue regardless.

The Warden need not be omnicient, but given the final scene, it;'s pretty clear that if someone died slaying the archdemon, it wasn't from "war injuries".

All that's clear if someone died slaying the Archdemon is that someone died slaying the Archdemon. You can't cut someone up for an autopsy and say "Welp, they had the soul of an Archdemon inside them with their own soul"

We can also pretend flying nugs from Antiva really slew the archdemon as well. Or that that explosion was really Sandal going "enchantment". One can come up with anything if they really want to, and throw continuity or lore out the window. However, there is zero reason for me to do so. So when I see a Warden stick the AD one last time and die because the ritual was performed, there is no logical reason for me to believe anything other than both warden and OG are annhilated.

And 4 years later, when my surviving female warden went through witch hunt (since it was Alistair who took the final blow) and confronted Morrigan, she was still irrate that my warden had turned down the ritual. However, she says it is not stopping her from doing what she feels needs to be done, which is pretty much the same as when the OGB exists. So as far as I'm concerned, an OGB on that import would be even more an epic fail than ressurected "Sister nightengale" or other undead NPCs that should not exist. there is simply no logical, sensible way it could exist. Morrigan certain doesn't believe anything of its kind exists. And she should know.

[TEWR]

How exactly is the OGB gonna come about from a female Warden who refuses the ritual? Does Morrigan mind control Alistair or Loghain into doing it off screen? I highly doubt that. Morrigan might want to do it. The Warden doesn't. So on that note, Morrigan is SOL as far as junior is concerned. The only way the OGB can be created is if Morrigan performs this specific ritual with a male Warden at that specific time. Morrigan informs you it has to be done then and there.

While Alistair or Loghain are possibilities, remember Morrigan is a shapeshifter. And they're near Redcliffe, which isn't too far away from the Orlesian border.

And considering David Gaider has said that mages know how to move from point A to B really fast without teleporting, Morrigan could've done something similar to go from Redcliffe to a Grey Warden base in Orlais.

She doesn't say it has to be done then and there. She says it has to be done "on the night before the battle". That doesn't say "Right now, you or your friend has to have sex with me in this bedroom with the fine silk sheets. No exceptions."

And again, you are missing the point. How is the Warden saying no stopping Morrigan from doing anything? You are wrong if you think the kid was her goal. It was an important part of a plan, but was not the end plan. Morrigans plans continue without the kid. She is not happy about it, but oh well.

She flat out says that was why she was sent with you by Flemeth.

And of course, your assumptions of why a Warden would refuse such a ritual are pretty narrow in scope. There are far more reasons why a Warden would not want to do the ritual other than a death wish. And it is not only the Warden who can die on the AD: Alistair and Loghain are chosen quite often, especially Loghain.

Yes, one of those being he wants to get rid of the Archdemon's soul forever, which I satated. And I know Alistair or Loghain can die too. I just didn't feel like typing out Warden/Alistair/Loghain three times. I wanted to save time to prove a point and not get ninja'd.

[TEWR]

And 4 years later, when my surviving female warden went through witch hunt (since it was Alistair who took the final blow) and confronted Morrigan, she was still irrate that my warden had turned down the ritual. However, she says it is not stopping her from doing what she feels needs to be done, which is pretty much the same as when the OGB exists. So as far as I'm concerned, an OGB on that import would be even more an epic fail than ressurected "Sister nightengale" or other undead NPCs that should not exist. there is simply no logical, sensible way it could exist. Morrigan certain doesn't believe anything of its kind exists. And she should know.

It's actually 2.5 years later, according to the wiki. And that she's irate with you because you said "no" doesn't mean she still didn't do it. Just that she's still pissed that you said no.

Anyway, is there a video of a Warden who didn't do the DR and lived to speak to her in WH that I can see? So I can know for sure what the dialogue was.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 août 2011 - 01:18 .

[Urazz]

Elton John is dead wrote...

I thought the child is not canon.

Bioware could easily do something like make Morrigan get knocked up shortly after DAO if she didn't get knocked up from the Dark Ritual or from sleeping with the Warden.  For those that saw Morrigan in Witch Hunt after DAO and didn't sleep with her or have the Dark Ritual peformed, they could easily just say she got pregnant shortly after it or that she got pregnant and gave birth before Witch Hunt but the Warden didn't hear any rumors about it.
 
This way a child of Morrigan would be in game.  It would just be a matter of if the child's soul is fused with the soul of the arch demon or not.

[TEWR]

"You denied me the ritual, but it doesn't change what is to come" --- Morrigan




That doesn't signify to me that she absolutely, positively didn't do the DR another way. Just that the Warden said no.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Ok, let's say the female warden does refuse Morrigan. Yes, Morrigan could use blood magic on Alistair, Loghain, and even Riordan at this point. Now wouldn't that be a hoot! She would do it too, since you've denied her. The warden still dies and Morrigan still gets her child.   Morrigan is seen shapeshifting into a dog and she runs out of the warden's room.  She could still hang around Redcliffe in shapeshifted form to do Loghain or Alistair with blood magic.   Morrigan lied to the wardens all along as to her reasons for joining them.  She knew all along why her mother sent her with them.

Oh Alistair, you do have a child and one you didn't know about. Surprise!  I could see Morrigan getting over on Alistair especially in this way. There is no indication that a female warden in a relationship with Alistair even sleeps with him that night. It's implied that they don't. They are given seperate bedrooms at  Redcliffe.

Anora would also have a child because it's her brother and have an heir for Ferelden if Morrigan chooses Loghain. If Anora finds out about it. Would Anora steal that child, oh yes she would, especially if she is barren. It has been heavily implied that she is.  I see Loghain being under handed enough to do the deed.   Especially if you didn't kill him at the landsmeet.  If you side with Anora at the landsmeet I can also see Alistair doing the dirty on the side because of a female wardens betrayal.

With Riordan dead, he won't know the difference. She said she couldn't use Riordan because he was tainted for to long.

Yes, I would love to see this happen, actually I'd pay to see this cinematic. Both wardens are given seperate bedrooms at Redcliffe. So I think you've just disproven you're own argument. Alistair or Loghain could still do the nasty with her and the female warden not know of it. There is sexual tension between Alistair and Morrigan. Alistair is caught checking Morrigan out in Lothering.

I'm sure Morrigan has her own skills of persuasion even if they aren't in her skill tree. She has lured many men to her mother's bed. If she can do it for her mother, I'm sure she can do it for herself.

Also with the game mechanics Redcliffe isn't that far away from Orlai. It takes two weeks to get from point A to point B on the map. So Morrigan has two weeks to find another warden. We know wardens from Orlai are waiting on the border. They will monitor if the Arch Demon is headed in their direction.

The only way for the warden to kill the arch demon is because the warden is already a tainted soul and they both can't inhabit the same body. Once again, the warden being the only one right up against the dragon means the warden can die with or without the DR when the explosion happens due to battlefied injuries.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 07 août 2011 - 02:12 .

[Macropodmum]

Personally I think it is easier to believe that Morrigan found some way of getting impregnated than Leliana showing up healthy after having her head lopped off ~ Anders, "all burnt mages in robes look the same to you" is somewhat more logical if you made him a warden, him showing up merged with Justice if you didn't make him a warden is a stretch.

[TEWR]

Anders showing up merged with Justice when he wasn't made a Warden and Justice was killed in the Dragonbone Wastes is akin to having a pair of underwear that's been stretched to cover an entire bedroom.

[Ryzaki]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Plus it cant happen.
EVER.

WORD OF GAIDER:
IF NO ONE DID THE DR AN SOMEONE DIED KILLING THE ARCHDEMON IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

END OF STORY!

Gaider was a lot more specific than that. He flat out states that if the Warden didn't do the DR (or let it happen) it didn't happen. Please peeps stop making convoluted ways for the OBG to pop up. It's not happening. 

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Ryzaki wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Plus it cant happen.
EVER.

WORD OF GAIDER:
IF NO ONE DID THE DR AN SOMEONE DIED KILLING THE ARCHDEMON IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

END OF STORY!

Gaider was a lot more specific than that. He flat out states that if the Warden didn't do the DR (or let it happen) it didn't happen. Please peeps stop making convoluted ways for the OBG to pop up. It's not happening. 

All we're saying is that if Bioware changes their mind and decides they want to go ahead and make the OGB happen there are to many explanations in the game for them to do so.  Notice that Gaider said "The Warden", not any warden.  Or that I've seen anyway.  This can also be taken that 'The Warden" just isn't the father of the OGB if they decide to do this. 

[Giggles_Manically]

Oh sweet Santa Christ......

If someone DIED then so did the OGB.
So if the warden dies killing the archdemon then.... what does that mean?

THEN SO DID THE OG SOUL.
END OF STORY.

If they make that choice pointless.
THE SINGLE BIGGEST CHOICE in origins I am done with Dragon Age for good.

[dragonfire100]

riccaborto wrote...

I think it is possible.

He/se COULD BE male or female, and human.

We know Morrigan is preparing the child to the "change" that is to come. Maybe the child is the one who can put things all right, and will have to face Flemeth.

"the entire world on the brink of war... and you need the one person who can help you put it back together"
... of course it is about Hawke, but could suit Morrigan's child... a person with GREAT POWER is needed to save the world... because very big things are gonna happen, as the Grey Wardens say in DA2.

Obviously this is MY idea...

Her child is a dragon a DRAGON thats means it cannot be the main charater.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Oh sweet Santa Christ......

If someone DIED then so did the OGB.
So if the warden dies killing the archdemon then.... what does that mean?

THEN SO DID THE OG SOUL.
END OF STORY.

If they make that choice pointless.
THE SINGLE BIGGEST CHOICE in origins I am done with Dragon Age for good.

Perhaps but not inclusively.  There is still WH.  Morrigan going through the mirror could also be used to retrieve the OGB soul or spirit if they want too. 

The OGB could be anybody walking around even if the warden is dead.  If Morrigan and Flemeth were trying to capture it's soul it's more than likely that others will do the same with the other two arch demons. 

They could even use a new blight in a future game to show what could happened with another mage such as Morrigan some other way doing the same ritual.   We have no idea which direction they are going to take.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ dragonfire100

Good point.

[Giggles_Manically]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Oh sweet Santa Christ......

If someone DIED then so did the OGB.
So if the warden dies killing the archdemon then.... what does that mean?

THEN SO DID THE OG SOUL.
END OF STORY.

If they make that choice pointless.
THE SINGLE BIGGEST CHOICE in origins I am done with Dragon Age for good.

Perhaps but not inclusively.  There is still WH.  Morrigan going through the mirror could also be used to retrieve the OGB soul or spirit if they want too. 

The OGB could be anybody walking around even if the warden is dead.  If Morrigan and Flemeth were trying to capture it's soul it's more than likely that others will do the same with the other two arch demons. 

They could even use a new blight in a future game to show what could happened with another mage such as Morrigan some other way doing the same ritual.   We have no idea which direction they are going to take.

If the OG soul still was running around then it would have gone into another darkspawn.

They would literally have to retcon out a vital part of their world and make Origins pointless then.

Not everyone knocked Morrigan up.
Sadly a lot of people dont get that. 

[Sepewrath]

Macropodmum wrote...

Personally I think it is easier to believe that Morrigan found some way of getting impregnated than Leliana showing up healthy after having her head lopped off ~ Anders, "all burnt mages in robes look the same to you" is somewhat more logical if you made him a warden, him showing up merged with Justice if you didn't make him a warden is a stretch.

Really? Remember all those guys from the Provings whose heads you cut off, they seemed to be fine afterward. At least Leliana had 4yrs to walk it off, they were fine five minutes later, decapitations just don't get you as far as they use to

But seriously someone being alive after dying in a magic tomb isn't so far fetched, but Morrigan had a highly specific magic spell, that required a Warden. The likelyhood of finding another newly tainted Warden in less than a day, who would be willing to ignore the Blight to have sex with her, is a bit more far fetched lol.

[Giggles_Manically]

More to the point there were no other wardens in the country since they were going to let Fereldan burn.

I am confident that Bioware can write something beyond DRAGON AGE 3: THE OGB NEEDS MORE DIAPERS!

[ArcanistLibram]

I think this is the first time I have ever seen people ask for a really contrived retcon that would invalidate one of player's most important choices.

[Elessara]

@dragonfire100

The child isn't a dragon. The child has the soul of an old god. The child is still human or half dwarf (depending).

[Out to Lunch]

So is this a "what I wish would happen but probably won't" thread or a "this is what I want to happen and will be pissed if it doesn't" thread?

[Gabey5]

not with the timeframe... da3 will be about the warden and hawke and the world at war

after the ending of da2 led us to believe

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Ok, let's say the female warden does refuse Morrigan. Yes, Morrigan could use blood magic on Alistair, Loghain, and even Riordan at this point. Now wouldn't that be a hoot! She would do it too, since you've denied her. The warden still dies and Morrigan still gets her child.   Morrigan is seen shapeshifting into a dog and she runs out of the warden's room.  She could still hang around Redcliffe in shapeshifted form to do Loghain or Alistair with blood magic.   Morrigan lied to the wardens all along as to her reasons for joining them.  She knew all along why her mother sent her with them.

Oh Alistair, you do have a child and one you didn't know about. Surprise!  I could see Morrigan getting over on Alistair especially in this way. There is no indication that a female warden in a relationship with Alistair even sleeps with him that night. It's implied that they don't. They are given seperate bedrooms at  Redcliffe.

Anora would also have a child because it's her brother and have an heir for Ferelden if Morrigan chooses Loghain. If Anora finds out about it. Would Anora steal that child, oh yes she would, especially if she is barren. It has been heavily implied that she is.  I see Loghain being under handed enough to do the deed.   Especially if you didn't kill him at the landsmeet.  If you side with Anora at the landsmeet I can also see Alistair doing the dirty on the side because of a female wardens betrayal.

With Riordan dead, he won't know the difference. She said she couldn't use Riordan because he was tainted for to long.

Yes, I would love to see this happen, actually I'd pay to see this cinematic. Both wardens are given seperate bedrooms at Redcliffe. So I think you've just disproven you're own argument. Alistair or Loghain could still do the nasty with her and the female warden not know of it. There is sexual tension between Alistair and Morrigan. Alistair is caught checking Morrigan out in Lothering.

I'm sure Morrigan has her own skills of persuasion even if they aren't in her skill tree. She has lured many men to her mother's bed. If she can do it for her mother, I'm sure she can do it for herself.

Also with the game mechanics Redcliffe isn't that far away from Orlai. It takes two weeks to get from point A to point B on the map. So Morrigan has two weeks to find another warden. We know wardens from Orlai are waiting on the border. They will monitor if the Arch Demon is headed in their direction.

The only way for the warden to kill the arch demon is because the warden is already a tainted soul and they both can't inhabit the same body. Once again, the warden being the only one right up against the dragon means the warden can die with or without the DR when the explosion happens due to battlefied injuries.

No. On so many levels. For starters, the idea of Morrigan using mind control to do the DR is ridiculous. Like somehow, she is going to sneak back into camp (which by this point, the Warden is on a forced march to Denerim, which includes their companions) and is going to manage to set up this funky ritual and all, and succeed. Completely unlikely.

Not to mention these scenarios again, require ridiculous retconning of the lore and events of DA2. Dead is dead, and as gaider said, if no DR was performed, there is no OGB, plain and simple. Witch hunt backs this up.

[Macropodmum]

Ryzaki wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Plus it cant happen.
EVER.

WORD OF GAIDER:
IF NO ONE DID THE DR AN SOMEONE DIED KILLING THE ARCHDEMON IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

END OF STORY!

Gaider was a lot more specific than that. He flat out states that if the Warden didn't do the DR (or let it happen) it didn't happen. Please peeps stop making convoluted ways for the OBG to pop up. It's not happening. 

He also said

David Gaider wrote...

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

Does resurrecting Leliana and making Anders a warden and merging with Justice not remove the players agency?  Many could argue those decisions were lame, so I really don't see how Morrigan getting the baby through other means is any more lame

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Oh sweet Santa Christ......

If someone DIED then so did the OGB.
So if the warden dies killing the archdemon then.... what does that mean?

THEN SO DID THE OG SOUL.
END OF STORY.

If they make that choice pointless.
THE SINGLE BIGGEST CHOICE in origins I am done with Dragon Age for good.

Riordan died fighting the archdemon?  Taking an archdemons soul onboard is not the only way for a warden to die, they are not any more superhuman than any one else.

Sepewrath wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

Personally I think it is easier to believe that Morrigan found some way of getting impregnated than Leliana showing up healthy after having her head lopped off ~ Anders, "all burnt mages in robes look the same to you" is somewhat more logical if you made him a warden, him showing up merged with Justice if you didn't make him a warden is a stretch.

Really? Remember all those guys from the Provings whose heads you cut off, they seemed to be fine afterward. At least Leliana had 4yrs to walk it off, they were fine five minutes later, decapitations just don't get you as far as they use to

So far I have not supported Harrowmont as I supported the notion of the caste system being done away with so I have never competed in the proving...

[dragonfire100]

Elessara wrote...

@dragonfire100

The child isn't a dragon. The child has the soul of an old god. The child is still human or half dwarf (depending).

Dude its either a darkspawn or a dragon in no way is an old god human elf or drawf.