192 réponses à ce sujet

[Dermain]

DrGulag wrote...

Show proof that "most" of the community hates DA2.

Metacritic does not count. Show legitimate proof.

What kind of a sample is big enough? You have around 4000 user reviews on that website and the average score is around 4.0

You do realise that a sample of 2500 may be large enough for a nation-wide figure when they do polls before elections.

Granted, it's just one website but just looking at this forum it's pretty obvious that many people are not content with the changes. We will see the real picture when the first DLC's come out. If they sell well and the next Dragon Age game is a success, Bioware need not worry.

The sample may be contaminated by nay-sayers? If you're actually doing a reliable poll you generally need to get rid of the results of people that just put yes/no for everything, otherwise it skews the results, and that's when you gete people screaming that vacinations are killing people.

[Pwnsaur]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Why is it that everyone who hates BioWares newest game thinks that all of the other old school fans (been a fan for 11 years now) hate the direction the company is going in just like they do?

I hope you realize that you just did what you claim to abhor. Speaking out against something while also doing the same thing isn't productive.

[sanadawarrior]

Pwnsaur wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Why is it that everyone who hates BioWares newest game thinks that all of the other old school fans (been a fan for 11 years now) hate the direction the company is going in just like they do?

I hope you realize that you just did what you claim to abhor. Speaking out against something while also doing the same thing isn't productive.

I realized it after I posted but couldn't really express what I wanted to say better. He isn't the first person to claim that all old school fans hate the new direction, Ive been hearing this since Mass Effect came out...

Edit: I suppose it was a moment of frustration, did make me look silly though huh? 

Modifié par sanadawarrior, 25 mars 2011 - 06:38 .

[DrGulag]

The sample may be contaminated by nay-sayers? If you're actually doing a reliable poll you generally need to get rid of the results of people that just put yes/no for everything, otherwise it skews the results, and that's when you gete people screaming that vacinations are killing people.

The most important thing is to read some of them so you can see what the main gripes are.

There is a message even if you just read the professional reviews. Discount the inflated scores (obey thy master and give it 100 points) and the one or two reviews that gave it a 0 (if there are any) and you will see that the average is in the 70's

In this day of age a game is not well received if the professional average is under 80 points. It's actually a pretty horrible score for a major release.

Modifié par DrGulag, 25 mars 2011 - 06:42 .

[Ad Dugg]

Chaos_1001 wrote...

It appears the majority of those who hated the game (for whatever reasons) has resorted to "lynch-mob" style tactics to get their point across . Now for one single second think about this ...

What if it were you yourself in a similar position. How would you react to a community ( not all of them but a good portion of them ) openly attacking you and demanding you become a sacrificial lamb just to satisfy their biased opinions..

I am ( and honestly as a community you should be as well ) completly OUTRAGED at this ! I will not even go into real life applications of this style of thinking.  That should be absolutly obvious to any who actually think on this for 5 seconds.

Ok you disagree with the direction of the game, fine . Discuss your "opinion" and give reasons as to why you disagree with the direction of the game in the way of feedback . This bullsquat of lynch-mob mentality quite honestly is Damning and Condemns us as a community as a whole !

In closing Think about what you are doing and how it may effect someone else. I would not be surprised at all if this line of thinking continues on these forums, they may just consider shutting down the forums all together or even worse , dropping Dragon Age franchise all-together and re-focus their efforts on other projects.

knock it the **** off !

/end rant

*Requests sticky*
It's funny how angry people are getting, there's no way they would speak to someone in real life the way they do on here.

People are fogetting that they're insulting people not a computer.

[Pwnsaur]

sanadawarrior wrote...
I realized it after I posted but couldn't realy express what I wanted to say better. He isn't the first person to claim that all old school fans hate the new direction, Ive been hearing this since Mass Effect came out...

I think it would be beneficial for both sides of the argument to avoid citing the more ignorant posts, and then producing their own ignorant posts. Neither side is actually right here, opinions such as they are. I really just try to ignore anything with straw men, ad-hominems, intolerance, and ignorance... Granted... This leaves a small pool from which to draw informative discourse, but it's still there for people actually interested in such things. Sometimes you just have to accept that the average I.Q. is 100 for a reason, and ignore the majority.  

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

I personally do not care if critics or fans argue, I just want some peace on these forums. ENOUGH! If you care about Bioware, then don't persist in bringing flamewars into the forums. I understand that there are people upset about the game, but that is no reason to insult the game designers. No matter if you feel that the game is not what you think it should be, the world has enough problems that your gripes are a mere speck of light in the larger scheme.

I find it depressing that the people who profess to care about bioware are the very self-same people who are not being constructive and rational about their disappointment. Life's a journey, shame about the destination.

Modifié par Blood-Lord Thanatos, 25 mars 2011 - 06:46 .

[bzombo]

DrGulag wrote...

It's not about being spoiled BY-TOR. It's simply a matter of taste.

I'm going to offer my gripes, because I didn't like DA2 at all. I'd like to receive some real statements from Bioware concerning what they are going to do with their next game. If they continue with these mechanics I'm just taking my money elsewhere and that's that.

There will always be companies ready to provide a suitable product for players like me if there is enough demand. And I believe there is.

are you reading what you're typing? you want statements from bioware about what they'll do with the next game? are you serious? why would bioware ever do that? they have no obligation to and would be stupid to do it. bioware does not need to seek out drgulag's approval. come on now. this is self entitlement to the extreme.

Modifié par bzombo, 25 mars 2011 - 06:46 .

[AkiKishi]

Ad Dugg wrote...

Chaos_1001 wrote...

It appears the majority of those who hated the game (for whatever reasons) has resorted to "lynch-mob" style tactics to get their point across . Now for one single second think about this ...

What if it were you yourself in a similar position. How would you react to a community ( not all of them but a good portion of them ) openly attacking you and demanding you become a sacrificial lamb just to satisfy their biased opinions..

I am ( and honestly as a community you should be as well ) completly OUTRAGED at this ! I will not even go into real life applications of this style of thinking.  That should be absolutly obvious to any who actually think on this for 5 seconds.

Ok you disagree with the direction of the game, fine . Discuss your "opinion" and give reasons as to why you disagree with the direction of the game in the way of feedback . This bullsquat of lynch-mob mentality quite honestly is Damning and Condemns us as a community as a whole !

In closing Think about what you are doing and how it may effect someone else. I would not be surprised at all if this line of thinking continues on these forums, they may just consider shutting down the forums all together or even worse , dropping Dragon Age franchise all-together and re-focus their efforts on other projects.

knock it the **** off !

/end rant

*Requests sticky*
It's funny how angry people are getting, there's no way they would speak to someone in real life the way they do on here.

People are fogetting that they're insulting people not a computer.

That tells me everything I need to know about the post.

If I were a shareholder I'd say the exact same things to their faces.

[DrGulag]

are you reading what you're typing? you want statements from bioware about what they'll do with the next game? are you serious? why would bioware ever do that?

To be honest and open towards customers who bought their products in the past and made them a successful company?

I dont think that's an unreasonable request. They dont need to seek my approval or anything but it would be nice to know what a possible purchase would offer to different people. That's how I would treat my own customers.

Modifié par DrGulag, 25 mars 2011 - 06:55 .

[sanadawarrior]

DrGulag wrote...

are you reading what you're typing? you want statements from bioware about what they'll do with the next game? are you serious? why would bioware ever do that?

To be honest and open towards customers who bought their products in the past and made them a successful company?

I dont think that's an unreasonable request to be honest. They dont need to seek my approval or anything but it would be nice to know what a possible purchase would offer to different people.

They should be honest towards their customers, however when they get around to talking about Dragon Age 3 is when you will know what it is you need to know about that game. Demanding that they tell you right now is premature, could be they themselves do not know in which direction to take the next game.

[DrGulag]

They should be honest towards their customers, however when they get around to talking about Dragon Age 3 is when you will know what it is you need to know about that game. Demanding that they tell you right now is premature, could be they themselves do not know in which direction to take the next game.

I'm not expecting anything right now.

I've said it before in another topic that I hope Bioware will respond (in depth) to these messages that are coming from the community. Preferably before any major expansion.

I don't think it's acceptable to cash in with empty promises. Bioware really went far with the whole pre-order mania. Signature Edition DLC's with the normal retail price and so on. They knew people would buy the game before release date anyway, because Origins won awards and gathered a lot critical acclaim.

Modifié par DrGulag, 25 mars 2011 - 07:02 .

[bzombo]

DrGulag wrote...

are you reading what you're typing? you want statements from bioware about what they'll do with the next game? are you serious? why would bioware ever do that?

To be honest and open towards customers who bought their products in the past and made them a successful company?

I dont think that's an unreasonable request. They dont need to seek my approval or anything but it would be nice to know what a possible purchase would offer to different people. That's how I would treat my own customers.

the point is, if they have a few million who like da2, why do they need to seek your approval for da3? you can say that's not what you're asking for, but when you demand they tell you their plans for da3, it's for you to make a personal judgement on whether or not you like their idea. right? that's what it sounds like to me.

bioware is a company. they make a product. you either buy it or you don't. bioware is not your friend. they might be nice people individually, but as bioware they are a company (now owned by ea) looking to make money so they can continue to make their products for people to buy. they have no obligation to you or me or anyone else. feedback is great. that's what they want so more people will buy future products. they're not looking for your approval, your liking or disliking, or anything else. they will take 4 million buyers over 100,000 former customers. that is reality. companies aren't in it for us, they're in it to make money. give constructive feedback. the mob mentality of those who feel slighted is just a case of self entitlement. vote with your wallet. that is what a company listens to most. if da2 still sells like dao, then we know the angry people are not a significant number. that's reality, harsh as it is.

[Vajraja]

bzombo wrote...

DrGulag wrote...

are you reading what you're typing? you want statements from bioware about what they'll do with the next game? are you serious? why would bioware ever do that?

To be honest and open towards customers who bought their products in the past and made them a successful company?

I dont think that's an unreasonable request. They dont need to seek my approval or anything but it would be nice to know what a possible purchase would offer to different people. That's how I would treat my own customers.

the point is, if they have a few million who like da2, why do they need to seek your approval for da3? you can say that's not what you're asking for, but when you demand they tell you their plans for da3, it's for you to make a personal judgement on whether or not you like their idea. right? that's what it sounds like to me.

bioware is a company. they make a product. you either buy it or you don't. bioware is not your friend. they might be nice people individually, but as bioware they are a company (now owned by ea) looking to make money so they can continue to make their products for people to buy. they have no obligation to you or me or anyone else. feedback is great. that's what they want so more people will buy future products. they're not looking for your approval, your liking or disliking, or anything else. they will take 4 million buyers over 100,000 former customers. that is reality. companies aren't in it for us, they're in it to make money. give constructive feedback. the mob mentality of those who feel slighted is just a case of self entitlement. vote with your wallet. that is what a company listens to most. if da2 still sells like dao, then we know the angry people are not a significant number. that's reality, harsh as it is.

I like the business basis you presented because it is the truth. The one skew that will be interesting to see is they definitely got a lot of their first week's business on the good will they established for DA:O so it's not a true indicator of "success" of the game. I think the true driver for that will be how much DLC and/or expansions will they sell? The people who are disappointed should "vote with their wallet" and not buy. 

I'm curious to see the results myself, and I am well aware that if the market demands it and likes the new style to Dragon age, then I am out of luck, and have to rely on Obsidian or some other developer for my deeper fantasy rpg thrills.

Also I am not a Bioware hater, I loved ME2 as a succesor to ME, and am excited for new dlc next week : ) Just not doing the same for DA2, and as a consumer it's my choice! 

[DrGulag]

the point is, if they have a few million who like da2, why do they need to seek your approval for da3? you can say that's not what you're asking for, but when you demand they tell you their plans for da3, it's for you to make a personal judgement on whether or not you like their idea. right? that's what it sounds like to me.

They dont need my approval.

All I'm asking as a customer is to know what they are planning to do after Dragon Age 2, because I wont be scammed with empty promises again. Altough even if the messages are positive (from my point of view) I'm going to wait until release. That basically means the trust is gone.

Does that mean anything? Is it relevant? If they have enough satisfied customers they are obviously free to continue with this current route and can create a new game every other year with mechanics we've witnessed. Just like EA does with other games (FIFA, NHL etc).

If you want my personal opinion, I believe that companies should be socially more responsible. Good things come when you acknowledge the community that made you in the first place. I think certain companies (many Japanese ones) have a better understanding of this. Less DRM, more customer rights, listen and be honest/open.

Also I am not a Bioware hater, I loved ME2 as a succesor to ME, and am
excited for new dlc next week : ) Just not doing the same for DA2, and
as a consumer it's my choice! ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

Exactly. I'm still very happy with Mass Effect as well.

Modifié par DrGulag, 25 mars 2011 - 08:04 .

[Mavkiel]

Ad Dugg wrote...
*Requests sticky*
It's funny how angry people are getting, there's no way they would speak to someone in real life the way they do on here.

People are fogetting that they're insulting people not a computer.

Yes, its odd how people can get angry with pre-ordering a game based on the quality of its predecessor, pay the same amount of cash, and realize they got about half the content.

I guess it'd be like pre-ordering the next version of a rolyes royce car and finding out they just took the design of a gremlin and kept the old rolys-royce price tag. No reason for anger at all
:innocent:

[DrGulag]

http://www.vgchartz.com/

By the way. It doesn't look too good for Dragon Age 2 if you look at the sales chart. Only one version in top 10 and the numbers are down in comparison to Origins (the amount of days from release date).

But I think they sold a lot of Signature Editions since people got the DLC's via normal retail price if they pre ordered.  

Modifié par DrGulag, 25 mars 2011 - 08:11 .

[Corto81]

DrGulag wrote...

http://www.vgchartz.com/

By the way. It doesn't look too good for Dragon Age 2 if you look at the sales chart. Only one version in top 10 and the numbers are down in comparison to Origins (the amount of days from release date).

But I think they sold a lot of Signature Editions since people got the DLC's via normal retail price if they pre ordered.  

Problem is, DAO sales were constantly doing good, game was getting both critical acclaim and got the imagination of a huge number of fans and players.

DA2 is currently getting thrashed in reviews, both professional and fan reviews, and quite rightly so, considering the game it's suppose to be the sequel to.

DA2 is not an awful game, it's fun, though with obvious flaws and a no replayability.

But it's just not up to DAO standards, and it moved away from RPG to action-arcade.

It's like... Imagine The Usual Suspects had a sequel. 
And it was something like Romeo Must Die or something...

[scpulley]

Chaos_1001 wrote...

It appears the majority of those who hated the game (for whatever reasons) has resorted to "lynch-mob" style tactics to get their point across . Now for one single second think about this ...

What if it were you yourself in a similar position. How would you react to a community ( not all of them but a good portion of them ) openly attacking you and demanding you become a sacrificial lamb just to satisfy their biased opinions..

I am ( and honestly as a community you should be as well ) completly OUTRAGED at this ! I will not even go into real life applications of this style of thinking.  That should be absolutly obvious to any who actually think on this for 5 seconds.

Ok you disagree with the direction of the game, fine . Discuss your "opinion" and give reasons as to why you disagree with the direction of the game in the way of feedback . This bullsquat of lynch-mob mentality quite honestly is Damning and Condemns us as a community as a whole !

In closing Think about what you are doing and how it may effect someone else. I would not be surprised at all if this line of thinking continues on these forums, they may just consider shutting down the forums all together or even worse , dropping Dragon Age franchise all-together and re-focus their efforts on other projects.

knock it the **** off !

/end rant

As usualy dude, I think you are being overly sensitive to what is being said. Lumping everyone into the 'if you are talking bad about the game' into a lynch mob you are generalizing too much. Some people, yes are going a bit overboard with the rage. But, a lot of us are more dissapointed than anything. We aren't calling anyone out or asking people to be fired, but we do want to make our voice of concern for this game setting known. There isn't anything wrong with that. Someone else already said it, it wasn't so bad of a game, I've said it before I enjoyed most of it, but it was kinda an empty feeling game at the end. What's worse, the interviews since have been somewhat hostile to the people that didn't like DA 2 as much as orgins. Telling your customers that they need to understand the greatness or they are being closed minded? Saying the RPG is dying and they 'had' to make this change'? Comments like that have just been fuel to the fire. Post like this don't help any more than people on the other end demanding people get fired. They just need to refocus on either going forward and actually fine tuning a more concrete game next time around. I don't mind the changes, but their weakest point of a halfassed story should be looked at. That is still the core of an RPG, I don't care how much they want to change the gameplay, it shouldn't come at the cost of a story that doesn't really feel all that complete at the end.

[Sandmanifest]

DrGulag wrote...

Nonsense.

People have legitimate gripes with this rushed product and they are voicing their frustration. That's the only thing we can do as customers after paying 60 bucks for a release that let most of the community down.

Many are going into overdrive, because the response from Bioware has been completely ridiculous. You have seen the latest interviews right? And they are not being open or honest, just trying to cash in and protect their own asses. In a situation like this certain amount of rage is entirely justified.

This. What upsets me really is the latest interviews. Its... well, read the interviews. They're not going to change direction even a little it seems. Which sucks cause I liked Bioware but life goes on and all.  

[Reinveil]

KellyKMc wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

DrGulag wrote...

Show proof that "most" of the community hates DA2.

Metacritic does not count. Show legitimate proof.

What kind of a sample is big enough? You have around 4000 user reviews on that website and the average is under 4.0

You do realise that a sample of 2500 may be large enough for nation-wide figure when they do polls before elections.

So the sample size of 2366 user reviews from Gamefly that have it hovering at about 8 is reliable as well right?

4000 fanboys can't be wrong....<_<  I think it's more of a statement on the sense of entitlement (and probably maturity) of the average gamer than any sort of objective indication of the true quality of the game.

Yes, the backlash against DAII can entirely be attributed to immaturity and a sense of entitlement.  We all got together at my house to discuss it before the game came out.  Has nothing to do with widespread dissastifaction with paying 60 dollars (or more) for something that is, in the opinion of many, a buggy, rushed mess of a game.  While we're making generalizations, would you mind if everyone assumed you're a shill for the company or a poor consumer that doesn't mind paying more for less?

What an ignorant post.

[DrGulag]

Your the person OP is talking about. Your negative view of DA2 gives nothing Bioware can work with. Do you think saying a product sucks is a good way of getting to Bioware? If you don't like a certain product, say why you don't like it, say what worked, and say what could be done to make it better. Thats called CONTRUCTIVE CRITISICM (sorry if I mispelled it btw.)

I always like to bring Gothic 3 to this topic when reffering to DA2. Gothic 3 has a crazy amount of bugs, it's combat is boring, and if it weren't for the community it would suck!

That is no fair review, a fair review states the good and the bad. Even if you did not like the game, you do not vent your fustrations. Now heed my words: This is coming from a 15 year old; You are being juvenile in doing so.

I've already listed my problems with this game. And there are tons of different topics dedicated for constructive criticism.

http://social.biowar...62832/3#6638332

But lets not discuss about them again here. You can argue against them over there.

Modifié par DrGulag, 25 mars 2011 - 10:06 .

[Reinveil]

simfamSP wrote...

DrGulag wrote...

Nonsense.

People have legitimate gripes with this rushed product and they are voicing their frustration. That's the only thing we can do as customers after paying 60 bucks for a release that let most of the community down.

Many are going into overdrive, because the response from Bioware has been completely ridiculous. You have seen the latest interviews right? And they are not being open or honest, just trying to cash in and protect their own asses. In a situation like this certain amount of rage is entirely justified.

Your the person OP is talking about. Your negative view of DA2 gives nothing Bioware can work with. Do you think saying a product sucks is a good way of getting to Bioware? If you don't like a certain product, say why you don't like it, say what worked, and say what could be done to make it better. Thats called CONTRUCTIVE CRITISICM (sorry if I mispelled it btw.)

I always like to bring Gothic 3 to this topic when reffering to DA2. Gothic 3 has a crazy amount of bugs, it's combat is boring, and if it weren't for the community it would suck!

That is no fair review, a fair review states the good and the bad. Even if you did not like the game, you do not vent your fustrations. Now heed my words: This is coming from a 15 year old; You are being juvenile in doing so.

Go look at the constructive criticism thread.  You know, the one with 50+ pages?  Started by a member of Bioware?  There's plenty of it going on.  Not sure what you're getting so defensive and uptight about.  OP's post wasn't even about the game, it's about people tearing into a member of the development team.

Nice rant, though.

P.S. You're=you are

[FedericoV]

I agree with the OP. Criticism is fine and even if I like the game (more than DA:O), I see the weak points of DA2 too. I'm not blind and I understand the reaction of a part of the community who loved DA:O. They have all the rights to express their opinions and to try to influence the decision of the devs, just like we have done with the first chapter of the franchise.

But there is a line that should not be crossed when criticism became nonsense and vitriol. No one has forced us to buy DA2. The game was advertised in a correct way (like it or not) and you know what to expect. There was even a demo. If you have bought the game nonetheless and you do not like it, it's your fault. I know what to expect and I'm only disappointed by the lack of variety/life in terms of setting (and even by the overall lack of polish due to the rushed dev cycle).

But let me repeat: you have all the right to criticize and if Blizzard gets his good share of flame from time to time, there is no company that is immune to it. Still, I think that many peoples should think a little bit more before posting biased accusation and that it's really rude to insult people that (good or bad) have devoted a lot of passion and work in good faith for that game. If you think that they are not in good faith, I don't understand why you loose your time here. You won't get a refund, try to sell the game on the bargain bin.

Modifié par FedericoV, 25 mars 2011 - 10:15 .