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[BeljoraDien]

I've lately noticed people saying that the dungeons in DA:O were boring compared to DA2... This is pretty unbelievable to me. So much so that I want to reply to every one of them saying how wrong they are... Instead, I'm just making a post on the topic.

I've beaten DA:O four times from beginning to end, not including playthroughs I did not finish. I still find DA:O's dungeons incredibly interesting... Whereas thinking about replaying DA2 and having to go through those dungeons yet AGAIN honestly gives me a headache.

This is meant to be a DA:O vs. DA2 topic. I, obviously, have my own preference, but I do not mind disagreement (granted, being human, I like agreement more). I would actually like to hear why some people thought the DA2 dungeons were better... or even just 'good' (if not better).

I've tried to organize this in a way that's readable, referenceable, and, above all, skippable (you can move right on down to my criticism of DA2's dungeons, for example). I'll start with my defense of DA:O's dungeons and end with my criticisms of DA2's dungeons.


DA:O - Brecelian Forest

I'm sent by a group of peaceful elves to slay some savage werewolves. Starts out pretty typical as I'm moving my way through the forest. As expected, random forest beasts attack me along with the werewolves I was expecting... but, there seems to be more to this place as I find a dead elf and Templar, find crypts that summons demons, find that the forest is a hideout for malificarum and thieves... and find that it is inhabited by strange tree-creatures, one of which is particularly annoying though unforgettable. All of this adding to the depth of what otherwise could have been a mundane trek through a forest.

As I interact with these Werewolves and make my way deeper into the forest, I begin to realize there's more to this quest than meets the eye. I finally corner the werewolves at the edge of the forest, but I'm not even halfway done with the dungeon as they've retreated to a stone building...

Stairways are broken, paths that would otherwise lead directly to where I need to go are blocked forever, forcing me to make my way through cracks in the wall apparently formed from overwrought tree roots. The building is not simply a base of operations for the werewolves; it's an ancient elf temple with mysterious lore abound. Nor are the werewolves the only species to have taken up residency, as I come across giant spiders, undead, a dragon, and ultimately a forest spirit who presents me with a major choice that will affect how the final battle of this dungeon will occur.


DA:O - Circle Tower

I'm told that the mages are locked away in the tower and that the templars intend to essentially nuke the whole place. My first reaction is, "How can you cowards just lock them up?" but upon being locked within the tower myself, I can see what it is they fear so much. It only gets worse as the closer I get to the top of the tower, the more I feel that the tower itself is coming alive with demonic corruption. I can clearly see how the tower would have been a fairly practical floor design had it not been infested and broken. There are optional puzzles and enemies to be fought here for those who search meticulously. At every turn I meet new mages and templars with unique demon-related dilemmas for me to 'solve'... and eventually end up with my own dilemma,trapped in the fade.

Transformations, puzzles, and general wonder and confusion as to the nature of this place has broken up the long trek and made it interesting once again. As an added bonus, I get individual interaction with the characters that I decided to take with me. Finally, I come to the 'boss' of this area who transforms at intervals, taking on different strengths, weakness, and tactics. Fortunately, I can do the same, and have to do so if I stand a chance in the fight, making for one of the most unique bosses I've fought in a game... But, oh wait, that's not even the boss; the real boss waits just beyond a templar with yet another game-changing choice for me to make.


DA:O - Redcliff

Technically not a dungeon right away, but it starts off with its own unique premise: I need to rally the town and fight back a horde of undead. The fight is dependent on NPC help, the horde comes in seemingly endless waves, and, most damning of all, the fight is... *dun dun dun* optional, so of course this was tough.

With that out of the way, I'm ready for the castle... but, ack, I have to go in through another dungeon. First few seconds in there, I have major choices to make. How am I to deal with the prisoner who may have caused this whole mess? My choice here is going to affect how the final battle goes. Pretty interesting, but surely it must get more linear from here... The next room seems pretty typical... just a bunch of undead? No, even this seemingly mundane fight changes drastically depending on my prior choice to save the town or not.

Traversing the castle, I find myself in a wine cellar, a chapel, storage closets, a mabari training room, a court yard, a kitchen... Would be a nice, practical place to live any other day, but lock a few doors and place a few undead, and it's now an ingeniously designed dungeon. Even the mid-boss fight is a break from the mundane, because it allows me to fight alongside the knights who made it through the previous battle. And, of course, it ends with me having to make yet another major decision that will affect where, how, and whether I'll fight the boss.


DA:O - Deep Roads

Just gaining access to the deep roads is a feat in itself, requiring me to complete a dungeon. My reward for completion being... another dungeon. One that I hear more complaining about than any other... I couldn't disagree more (of course) as the deep roads are without a doubt my favorite dungeon in the game. It can be long, definitely, but boring...? I cannot comprehend that.

In the trek through the deep roads, I come across so much history... I can clearly see that the dwarves had been forced to retreat from the various Thaigs, that darkspawn have set up camps and barricades all through the caverns. Ingeniously, monsters in the deep roads seem no more at peace with the Darkspawn than monsters on the surface are with people. There are multiple times where I see the Darkspawn fighting back against monsters like deep stalkers... And at Ortan Thaig, I find that this has becoming a losing battle for the Darkspawn. Here, the Darkspawn are no longer the major threat as I'm forced to now deal with spiders of all ranges of size.

Deep in the tainted underground, I come across the Legion of the Dead, learning even more of the history of the dwarves. Beholding the Thaig, I can tell that it once would have rivaled Orzammar, but is now littered with darkspawn camps and tumor-like corruptions. After killing one of the most disturbing bosses in any game I've played (in both look and subtext) I move onto the next area. I've seen old thaigs ruled by demons, spiders, and darkspawn already. What could possibly be left? ...Golems. I'm again given a choice in how the final battle will occur.

Stinky, covered in blood, and, best of all, victorious, I left that Hell hole with a real understanding of why the deep roads are so intimidating to man and dwarf. The feeling of finally coming out of Orzammar, stepping out into the light... It was just amazing... I even got the highlight of Oghren saying how big and far away the sky was, and after being trapped in the Deep Roads for so long, I was totally with him on that.


DA:O - Ruined Temple

Like Orzammar, the village of Haven feels a bit like a dungeon itself. One that can play out in a number of ways depending on how you explore it. The real 'dungeon', however, starts once you reach the Ruined Temple.

What should have been a quest in search of a 'trash bin' has layer upon layer thrown on top of it. I arrive at this 'sacred temple' where, supposedly, none have set foot in ages.... except, to my surprise, there are actually Haven villagers living inside. The place has the appearance of being crushed under the shifting weight of the mountain, there is light shining through the ceiling, it's ruined, yet has an echo of its former beauty. Rubble blocks paths that obviously would have been more straightforward... but holes in the wall give me access to the caves of the mountain that the temple was built into. Coming to the end of the temple, I'm presented with multiple choices... whether to fight the villagers, to join them, or even to bluff my way out of a fight. I further have an option to fight a high dragon at this point... After some character interaction and a dungeon that changes dependent on my origin story, I'm presented with even more choices that affect the final battle of this dungeon.


DA:O - Denerim

Okay, I actually hated this place. I did like the Alienage to some extent, but mostly because City Elf is my favorite origin, so it felt more personal. Lacking that, I can't think of too much to redeem the monotony of clearing out blood mages, thieves, and slavers. Feel free to correct me on that if I'm forgetting something.


So...?

Why go into such detail with my experience of DA:O? Well, probably the most important reason is that it's easy to criticize; it's difficult to defend. I'm putting my love of DA:O's dungeons out there, just as I'm expecting some people to put their love of DA2's dungeons out there. I, and like-minded others, will criticize a game that others love, so it seems fair that I have my own target in the form of a game that I love. 

Contrary to what I'm hearing, I felt most of these dungeons were extremely well done and not boring in the least. It seemed like there was something around every corner, something new and unexpected... a choice to make, a scene to be in awe of, and, finally, a feeling of victory that I can only get from an epic dungeon. It was the best of both worlds, really... length without monotony, a feeling of achievement without laboring. So, I don't get where the criticism comes from. Now, contrast these experiences with what DA2 offers me...


DA2 - Dungeon Designs

Okay, you're probably expecting me to beat up on the recycling and sheets of metal that operate sometimes as sliding doors and other times as impenetrable barriers. I would, but... eh, just describing it accurately is enough.

The problem I really have is the dungeon designs almost never fit the story that is being presented in the quest. I'm told there's a horde of spiders, but when I enter, the cave is clean and tidy; no giant webs or cocooned men/animals. I'm told demons have taken up in the basement, but there's no tumor-like corruption growing from the walls, no mucus coating the floor. I'm told such and such is under attack... but everything looks as it always has, not a scratch on anything.

DA2 just had very few dungeon designs that really wowed me. Despite its flaws, even Awakening had some amazing dungeon designs; I still remember the deep roads entrance, such an eyesore stuck in the middle of the beautiful country side you just walked through. I really want to see that kind of unique design again.

The Deep Roads, actually, were probably the most well done of the DA2 dungeons. I even liked how the pillars, common to the Deep Roads, were used as a tactical tool for the Rock Wraith boss. I personally thought that specific part was well done... except...


DA2 - Dungeon/Story Synchronization

Except that while traversing the Deep Roads, it was just one enemy after another, with no break in between. I'm apparently just after that damn idol and I don't care how many random enemies pop up. Unlike DA:O's Deep Roads, there was no awe and wonder as new plot elements, lore, or characters got introduced. The only real 'wonder' I had was wondering why all these golems and desire demons were attacking me when that's so contrary to their nature... and wondering where all the shrieks and genlocks went off to.

I mean, should there even BE Golems in this place? Everything from DA:O tells me there shouldn't, and even if I accept that there are... Why attack me? Were they magically reprogrammed to fight alongside demons? If so, why not give me a cutscene or some dialogue explaining it?

Second, why, even, are the demons attacking me in such droves? I can understand rage demons... That's just rage for you, but desire demons? They've always been so much more subtle than that. I would tell myself "Just pretend they're all rage demons..." It was so disheartening. It seemed like they were just throwing every type of enemy they could think of at me with no logic behind it.

One problem could be that there just isn't anything left to 'wow' us with. We know about the Grey Wardens, and the Legion of the Dead, blood mages, templars, demons, and golems... Maybe they just couldn't set up the dungeons to essentially introduce new elements at every turn like they could in DA:O. It still seems like there could have been something. Where is the adventure, the wonder, the break from the mundane, I ask?

I felt like every quest was essentially just another one under the belt, whether it was important to the plot or just a side quest. Length of the dungeons is definitely one major reason for this. I leave the town to go dungeon crawling for maybe 10-20 minutes, get a cut scene or some form of interaction, then I'm off to the next dungeon. I do this about 50 times, so that when fighting through a dungeon to 'save' my mother, it felt like old hat. Once it's complete, I'm presented with a scene... which itself may or may not have worked well (I'm not arguing that either way), but the real tragedy is the fact that I had no desire to 'quit moving' and rest afterward. I mean, the dungeon was only 10 minutes long, so what do I do after a scene like that? Well, go polish off another 5 quests just like it, obviously. In DA:O I was just in such awe at having finally completed my 10 hour push through a dungeon, so I couldn't just move on to the next one. I was forced to rest, which gave me ample time to consider what I had done and realize why it was important.


Before Replying

I do not expect long, detailed, or even reverent replies, but I do want to keep essentially on topic, so a few things:

Understand that I'm wanting to talk about topics relating to dungeons, such as: dungeon design, breaks from monotony while dungeon crawling, and integration of dungeons with history, lore, and a side-story/quest. Don't confuse this as a topic on DA:O's main story vs. DA2's main story.

Combat is also on the table to an extent, such as number of enemies in a dungeon/types of enemies in a dungeon and skills/tactics of certain enemies that fit well with the lore of the dungeon itself (e.g. Your character and the Sloth demon transforming, hiding behind pillars with the Rock wraith, or aiming ballistas at the Archdemon).

Towns that act as dungeons themselves can be on the table as well, since, obviously, there are parts of Redcliff and Orzammar that are 'dungeons' in just about every sense of the word.

Finally, notice that all instances of 'choice/decision' that I've mentioned pertain to choices that affect the dungeon itself. I do not want to get into an argument over whether DA2/DA:O were linear/non-linear. Saying something like, "You can choose to kill X or not kill X" even though X's absence has no affect on a dungeon or gameplay misses the point completely.

Basically, just try to keep it relevant to the topic at hand. I tried to remain on topic myself, only talking about story elements when I felt they tied into the the topic of dungeons, I might have failed in some respects, but no human is completely consistent.

I'd also be interested in hearing what other games people thought did dungeon crawling right and why they thought so.