1053 réponses à ce sujet

[Quole]

Elite Midget wrote...

Internet or not suicide isn't a joking matter. I'm appuald that you're all high fiving him for such a tasteless comment. So really, who's the real troll here?

Here's a tip, look in a mirror.

I hope a Mod does come around and punishes everyone for how bad this has gotten. What you've done is more than just trolling and being an Off Topic spammer. You've instigated matters and have finally broke the camels back.

Ummm... What exactly are you refering to? The fact that this is OT? If thats the case then its partially your fault, as you were the one who responded to that joke in the first place.
EDIT: If you are truly that offended by something someone says, why not just report it and then ignore it?

Modifié par Quole, 27 mars 2011 - 12:59 .

[Elite Midget]

You think I haven't reported? It has done nothing thusfar and that was hours ago after he and his elk ignore my request to leave or stay on Topic. Kinda hard to just ignore it when they're spamming together and the such.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Elite Midget wrote...

I leave for the night and I have giant paragraphs awaiting me. Well, here goes.

-Bourne Endeavor -

It sounds plausiable when you ignore the other variables. Such as Cerberus Loyal Miranda going back to her post, via TIMs orders, or that she could potientially die or is unloyal. I for one can't stand the idea of outright denying Squaddies for any person in a games sequel just because they didn't have the perfect ME2 save. Which I'll add will stlil have variables to push others away even if said save was perfect.

Besides, Miranda is a bright girl and the main reason she joined Cerberus was a promise of protection for herself and her sister. If she betrays Cerberus at the end of ME2 than she needs to find another to protect her sister since TIM, the bitter type that holds grudges, she'll need to find another to do the job.

If you opt to save the Collector Base it is still implied Miranda is loyal to Shepard and weary of TIM. While I have my qualms on how that was handled, such is a debate for another time. Thus, there is not Cerberus loyal Miranda, and it is neither a retcon nor a plothole for her to follow Shepard regardless. Where we begin to trend murky water is Loyalty, albeit that is solely dependent on how literal your interpretation of the term is. It could easily be rationalized away as a game mechanic and have no consequential bearing going forward. This is in fact, the most logical conclusion given even in ME2 its only function is to trigger an arbitrary flag allowing for them to die.

Therefore, the plausible scenario were Miranda to return is...

- Shepard Loyal (Base decision is irrelevant)
- Loyalty is mechanical only (Lack of acquisition slightly alters dialogue)

You recall how minimal an effect our influence had on Garrus from ME, yes? Welcome to real possibility for each squadmate. Do I particularly fancy the concept? No, not entirely but this derives from my belief there should not have been a Suicide Mission to begin with. Regardless, BioWare has proven time and again they have nary a qualm to hand wave prior choice. In this instance I offer them a reprieve, considering the difficulties associated.

Miranda was very relevant to the ME2 plot as was Mordin. Though you're correct that the others were just meat sacks willing to take the bullet for Shepard. The reason for this is that Bioware threw out the plot in favor of character backstories and simply had too many Squaddies. If Bioware has learned anything from ME1 and ME2 is that Quality always trumps Quantity. Thus, if Bioware is smart, they wouldn't rationally bring the dead back since it would just bring back the same problems from before.

I suppose I cede Miranda's relevance, albeit one could slot Wilson into her role with relative ease. Put bluntly the moment Shepard awakens is the moment her plot importance concludes. We are in agreement in there were too many squadmates, which proved detrimental to their development consistency and hampered the plot. That does not necessarily insinuate their return is improbable, although I do not expect it myself.

It would exist if the dead are brought back. They simply can't be intergrated well into ME3 due to the many Variables thatwould force them to leave. If they did get in the best you could hope for is Zaeed/Kasumi style for them and to me that would be sad. Why? Well, it would be a huge disservice to the characters to be placed in such a state due to Fan demands of their unrealistic return.

So what're you saying here? Cameo's? Since that's all VS and Wrex got and even than said Cameo's were extremely short. Which I might add was even short for Liara as well outside DLC and VS having a Loophole. So really, what are you implying here?

Your definition of a retcon is skewed. My preceding examples are not a retcon, just restrictive. Liara's persona is a partial retcon due to lack of exposition but her DLC is not. Miranda's role as described would function in similar capacity. Coincidently, that would not require her a permanent squad mate role, however it is arguably a sufficient one. Likewise, she could be a squad mate thereafter with a larger scope than Kasumi/Zaeed, if only minimalistic. How would a Wrex-esque cameo do them any greater a service? This is the finale and they receive five minutes of content?

Despite what Samara has learned she cannot ignore her code for years end while doing nothing. It's simply not possible, especially since her oath only was supposed to last through the events of ME2. Clearly Bioware used that as an obvious excuse on why she wouldn't return even if she's loyal and alive by the end. Hell, there was even a conversation you can have after ME2 with Samara where she makes mention that she would still leave anyway. Though this is highlighted even more if you're a Renegade.

If she swore a second oath to assist in the destruction of the Reapers, then yes should could. The code is superficial and conveniently subverted when deemed necessary. This is evident by her original oath to stop the Collectors. If her code and personal mission were paramount. She would not have agreed to delay, possibly risking her life, to help Shepard. She also insinuates she the precise opposite, claiming she will aid Shepard whenever (s)he needs.

Pursueing Morinth isn't the only thing she was doing. It was simply her main path. Even after killing Morinth she makes mention that she must still follow her Code and after repaying her debt to Shepard she must continue doing her life mission. Also, Samara knew of Saren, the Matriarch, and the Geth threat in ME1 yet she didn't let it bother her all too much. Especially since no one in the Terminus System could hope to halt her she went after Saren anyway.

Her life's mission is the preservation of justice deduced by a black and white ethics perspective. Do you not believe assisting in preventing the Reaper invasion, thereby protecting all organic life, adheres to the demands of her code?

Where was this mentioned? She does not specify any knowledge of Saren or his intentions. In actuality, no one was aware of his motivations or the impending Geth threat until its initiation. It was not as though Saren was broadcasting his objectives to the known galaxy. Samara may not have even been in Terminus space since according to ME2 she had only just arrived at Illium. A Justicar would not be welcome in Citadel space as their code would compel them to perform actions which would lead to certain demise.

You are creating your own scenarios and refuting them. The game does not provide any information you have presented.

Not all Fans are correct, however. What some are demanding is that Bioware retcons their own story so that they tell the story that they, the fans, want. That's simply bad business since if you start trying to cater to what a few fans want over others and changeing your story to appease said minority fanbase you'll end up alienating everyone anyway. Thus it's a No-Win Situation and the best path is to follow the path they have predesigned.

We have been over your inaccurate definition of a retcon. You are again making assumptions and widely incorrect ones at that. It is not a vocal minority who are lobbying for the return of the squad, the vast majority are. Yes BioWare has envisioned a story however if they deviant widely from fan expectations, those fans will abandon them. You cannot tell your fanbase what they want any more than you should exclusively listen to their demands.

I guarantee you if BioWare announced Garrus and Tali would be Wrex'd. They would instantaneously see a lose in pre-orders, even from individuals who are fans of neither. It would fuel the lingering dread their favorites being subjected to similar treatment inevitable.

To me, I would rather have them Wrex Effect'd than to end up with only Tali and Garrus as returning Squaddies yet again. In my eyes that's just catering to a loud minority and screwing over the rest of your fanbase. It simply doesn't make sense to try and appease the minority when all of the Squaddies share many variables that deny their return to Squaddie status. Basically, bad business and would only upset fans even more.


I mean, do you remember how pissed off VS, Wrex, and Liara fans were when Me2 hit? Times that by 10 and than add those ME1 fans together. That's how bad it would be if they were biased and brought back the individual popular killable squaddies while giving the bird to the rest of the Fanbase again.

"Separated, we are a minority. United, we are a majority."

Consider this quote and factor the former to each individual character fanbase. Under this perception, your theory is correct. It would spark hostility and claims of favoritism. Now factor the latter to the entire Mass Effect fanbase. If all the ME2 cast is cameo'd, you have everyone angry. The Liara fanbase could abhor Garrus, yet would join their animosity toward BioWare if both their roles were reduced to five minutes. Likewise for Miranda and Jack, Tali and Ash and every other character.

Or they could go the doable route and introduce a whole new cast and than show Shepard how the old Squaddies are doing and how much more beneficial they are to defeating te Reapers outside of being Shepard's guns. Such as Garrus leading his own Squad that may be used to infiltrate later in ME3 or Tali aiding in the Quarian Civil War that was hinted at than placed on the Admirality board due to her actions that saved the fleet.

If it were handled in a lengthily, Lair of the Shadow Broker manner. It may be an acceptable alternative. If Garrus emulates Wrex's diminished role than people will perceive it a failure of delivery from BioWare. Your example of Garrus is a bit contrived when you consider he already led a squad and got them killed.

Again, you're trying to punish new players in what's supposed to be a standalone experience. Bioware has stated that importing wasen't needed and you wouldn't be punished gameplay wise. Let me tell you, an extra Squaddie effects Gameplay by a HUGE amount. Such as not having Tali or Legion when fighting a LOKI or not having Grunt or Samara to fight Collector's. Besides, what would be the point of denying such large swaths of content anyway? All it would do is just have new players, resentful of Bioware, to buy ME2 used at Gamestop or something thus Bioware profitted from nothing for trying to appease a minority while pissing off Casuals/Newcomers.

And you are trying to punish existing players. BioWare has promised choice and those choices having an impact. If the previous cast from the predecessors have a meaningless cameo. Mass Effect 2's entire existence was completely irrelevant. They would insult both their fanbase and the series itself by indirectly saying you wasted your time playing ME2 since virtually nothing you did will have any impact.

Evidently, you have not played frequently. I have slaughtered this game with a team of Soldiers (Grunt and Zaeed) on a NG+ Insanity file. Tali is borderline useless and especially against LOKI mechs, Legion is barely available, why would you take Grunt against Collectors unless you wanted a challenge and Reave is immensely overrated. Shepard is so ridiculously superior to everyone you could solo the game, albeit with some difficulties as an Adept or Engineer.

There are alternatives to new characters even if I believe some will be introduced. One possibility is on a default file the player is able to choose a specific number who are alive, perhaps two if ME2's worst game scenario is any indication.

Once again, it is the majority they will have angered not the minority. By doing as you insist, BioWare risks angering their existence core who may abandon the franchise. Why should they appeal to casuals/newcomers who have shown no interest in one of the most prolific series on the market in lieu of the three million loyal fans? That would be bad for business.

[Pacifien]

Whether you agree with a poster or not, the Site Rules are clear that you are to conduct yourself in a civil manner at all times. If you are unable to do so, you would do better not to post.

I shouldn't have to keep reminding people that there is no reason to call anyone else a troll. To do so contributes nothing and feeds the spam you believe the other person is instigating. You are supposed to report problem posters and posts to a moderator via PM and then ignore the trolling. Contributing to spam means you open yourself up to moderation.

Carry on if you must.

[Elite Midget]

Finally someone has returned to the Topic at hand.

True that she would be catious but she wouldn't have betrayed Cerberus. Though her decision to betray Cerberus, if you blow he base and she's in your party, anyway seemed like a spur of a moment thing and not well thought out. It's like she forgot that she had a Loyalty Mission or a twin sister via genetics. Really don't think Bioware thought that out all that well.

Loyalty was a lame mechanic if you ask me. All it does is change a cutscene by a small bit. Such as your Squaddie being stupid. How Studity and being Unloyal coincide I have no clue... You can tell that Bioware has testing the waters with this Loyalty thing and didn't really go all that far with it outside the loyalty mission.

Perhaps. Miranda at least played a role in ME2 though I can't accept her return because it would only ingite fans that wanted anoher character to return. Which would be impossible and would be counterprodiuctive. What with there being too many Squaddies that caused the a lot of the problems in ME2 anyway despite it being heavily Character based.

I do recall how little of a role Garrus had in ME1. Was kinda iffy when dureing the Crew talks only Ashley/Kaiden/Liara did any of the talking other than Shepard. Of course I was also one of those that expected everyone to return and I didn't know that Wrex could die untill after I went online once I beat the game. Nevertheless, Bioware might handwave things but it would be a coop out if they only handwave for a popular few and ignoreing the rest of the Character Fans.


Wilson could have proven more of the role if he wasen't the schemeing lackey that was trying to make sure Shepard never returns. Though Miranda was important when initially getting in touch wiith TIM but afterwards her plot importance fell dramatically while Mordin could to roll around in plot importance throughout the game. Still, it would be a great challenge to bring any of the back since if only a few or brought there will be a large backlash from fans.


Maybe it is to you but of course I'm unable to see it as that way. I'm biased in that regard, I admit. Liara didn't seem like too much of a retcon since there was a comic series and it's understandable she would grow hardened after loseing Shepard and her Drell pal. As for Miranda... She didn't truely feel like a Squaddie and instead felt like another meat bag to use against the Collector's. Like the others, save Mordin, they had very little plot importance in the grand scheme of things.

If they go the scope of Kasumi/Zaeed than why not just make them DLC? Clearly in that scope they would be unneeded to complete ME3 or to get the general story of it.


There was no option for another oath though at the end of ME2. You could visit her after the Collector's Base and she makes no mention of her oath and instead emphasis that she would leave due to her Code. Of course this is more in your face if you were a Renegade and she despises you greatly. As for aiding Shepard whenever he needs... Against a Reaper fleet she could do much more, due to her Justicar status, back home or in Citadel space than under Shepard. Her statement was vague and could easily go both ways inthat situation. Though I doubt she would return since it would end up punishing Renegade players that already get angry about all the goodies Paragons get.


Justice waits for no one though and it's spontanous at times. She may wish to assist against the Reapers but her Code cannot allow her to just wait when Injustice continues to occure no matter how small. Besides, there are more ways to help Shepard than being a part of the Squad.

As a Justicar she would be aware of Saren's existence and the trouble he's causeing. After all, he did control a power Asari and had invaded quite a few places. Of course Bioware most likely had her doing other Justice stuff at the time since she wasen't created untill after Bioware decided to make a new Squad for ME2.  The Citadel Space space thing doesn't make sense though since Saren operated in the Terminus systems.


Have we? All we can do is make the best guesses possible with the unadultered and unbiased facts placed before us. Useing logic I cannot fathom that there would be another way without massive amounts of resources poured into the project. With EA now in firm control and the way DA2 turned out I have my doubts that Bioware will have the luxury of said resources.

You can't force fans to believe but there's only so much you can do to try and appease them without corrupting what you planned all along. Many fans cannot understand how the Industry works or how hard some of this stuff really is to do. Even with the amount of Talent and Experience Bioware has they simply can't make stuff happen over night just becauswe they desire it. They must compromise and go with what will be cost efficient and will benefit the Company the most.

Perhaps they might but they would lose even more pre-orders if they reveal that Tali and Garrus would be returning despite variables while the others wouldn't. They simply can't win in that situation no matter what they do due to the fact that thy messed up and made everyone killable along with other variables that can't be changed through playing the game. Such as Thane's illness.


If only some are brought back it will give many fans anger on top of the anger that they were going to get Cameo's anyway. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Thane fans got a Gravestone as their Cameo. Also, that happened into the past and the backjlash was huge when Tali/Garrus returned yet Ashley/Liara/Wrex/Kaiden didn't return. Think how bad it would get if the situation was repeated. ME1 Fans and ME2 Fans would be furious and it would bring into question why they bothered to romance the others over the ever returning Tali and Garrus. Basically a huge lose-lose situation right there.


Since this is the final game I would prefer the Cameos/Temp Status to last over a number of mission and last longer than LoTSB. That way Fans can accept that their old Squaddies have finally grown as Characters and wont have such a bitter taste in their mouth for having to say good bye. After all, good byes always hurts more than saying hello.

As for Garrus it was an example and his didn't lose his Squad due to being unskilled. He lost them due to treachery. After seeing how even individuals can do the impossible under Shepard and Garrus being the Turian's version of Shepard I see him trying again later. Garrus was born to be a Leader and not a follower his personality and constant act of leaving shows that he can never truely be settled under such a situation.


It's a common occurance. To please and attract a new crowd the old crowd always gets screwed over. Always. I've never seen a sequal of a great game that hasen't screwed someone over in the end. It's simply business. Bioware already knows who's it's fans are and has constantly pushed the envelope to try and attract a wider array of fans. Hell, what they did with ME2 pushed many ME1 fans away intially but after the bitterness had passed they purchased ME2 anyway due to it being a good game even if it wasen't the game they wanted.

It doesn't have to be a meaningless cameo. I gave examples of making said cameo's very plot relevant. Such as Tali in the foreshadowed Quarian Conflict and perhaps her getting to the Admirality Board due to her actions in said conflict. Having her on the Admirality Board pretty much means that the Quarians would be much more willing to provide aid even if they had their doubts about the Reapers. This would be far more helpful than being another Gun since a mere Gun means nothing against a Reaper Invasion as Ashley once said. 

Engineer's are very helpful against Mechas though. You can still beat Loki's with Grunt and Zaeed but they aren't the best choices to have. Hell, you could beat Loki's on Insanity just with Shepard. Which I might add is how things usually occured for me since the AI is extremely stupid at times. Reave isn't all that overrated and Grunt, on Insanity, can be taken due to his ammo power, knock down, and his nigh unkillable status. Of course Samara and Miranda are most likely the best choices due to their abilities.

Perhaps but I hate default fills since they wouldn't be obtainable in all saves and would share the same if not less dialouge than the killables. Not a scenerio I endorse and I feel it would cheapen the experience greatly. Why bother to save these guys to get them as Squaddies when a stand in could do their job just as well? That's why I support only New Squaddies and the roles of the old Squaddies being expanded far beyond just being Shepard's guns.


Perhaps but as I said earlier the old always get screwed over for the new. It's simply better business that way. Though you're right on the matter of the risks Bioware must and will take no matter what they do. They can't please everyone and if they only have cameo's that aren't plot changeing/important or even lacks temp squaddie status than they would be doing the old Squaddies more harm than just making them lifeless husks in your Squad.

They have to appeal to Casuals because they far outnumber everyone else. Casuals also don't tend to value DLC as highly as the Hardcore and will buy DLC as long as they like the game. Hardcores will of course get information first and than decide if they want said DLC or not. Simply put the hardcore are much harder to please and Bioware has in the recent past since ME2 expressed that they want the Casual crowd.

[Elite Midget]

Pacifien wrote...

Whether you agree with a poster or not, the Site Rules are clear that you are to conduct yourself in a civil manner at all times. If you are unable to do so, you would do better not to post.

I shouldn't have to keep reminding people that there is no reason to call anyone else a troll. To do so contributes nothing and feeds the spam you believe the other person is instigating. You are supposed to report problem posters and posts to a moderator via PM and then ignore the trolling. Contributing to spam means you open yourself up to moderation.

Carry on if you must.

Thank you for the reminder. We were all at fault here and things got heated. Sometimes it takes another to tell us what we all already knew all along. Regardless I will keep myself in check and I hope others that come in this Topic will do so as well.

Also, thank you for not locking this Topic. There are those that did come here to debate and I enjoy clashing ideals and the such with those willing to step up to the plate. It takes great courage to stay true to your beliefs and haveing the will to debate it in an adult manner even if not everyone agrees.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 27 mars 2011 - 03:56 .

[lovgreno]

To OP:
Only two variables are realy needed: LI yes or no. Alive yes or no. Anything else can be rationalised away but I'm sure there are room for much more as we can see in ME2.

Also we should consider that this is the last game in the series and there is no need to consider what will carry over to next game. The developers will be much more free to do what they want with everything.

Also, listening to the consumers (in this case fans who gives BW very detailed feedback about what they want, something that is absolutely priceless in buisness) and try giving them what they want is vital if you want to survive as a company in the longer run.

Therefore I am guessing that BW are trying their best to include as many old squadmates as they can on team Shepard. Exactly how this is best done I can not say of course as I am not a writer or programmer so I can not say how many, or if even any, old favourites return.

[Elite Midget]

They may be the only ones needed in your opinion but you cannit deny the existance of others. We know not how relevant they all will end up being thus we should go on the assumption that they're all equally important in the grand scheme of things. That or we can go with them all being unimportant but that might be redundant since clearly at least one has to be important.

I have considered it being the last game but I cannot shake off all these variables and that Bioware is a company out to make money. They only have finite resources and I doubt EA would allowed Me3 to turn into the next DNF.

Listening to the customers is nice but even on these forums, where only the minority go, we're divided on what we even want. Some want Thane to return and there are others that can't comprehend a ME game with Tali or Garrus. By listening they can't please everyone and in the end would only anger the majority by giving a certian minority special treatment.

Bioware will do their best regards on what occues. If they change things I will be miffed but Bioware has a history of quality titles. If they decide to pretend the other variables don't exist I will eat my words but I will also still play ME3. In the end I would be more impressed if Bioware can pull of the impossible and find a way to appease everyone. It's a dream but it seems too far to reach in my eyes.

No one truely can and all we have gotten are vague responses from Bioware and these variables that they left behind in ME2 and ME1.

With the variables being the only facts we know I cannot ignore them and stand by each and every one of them. That's why I'm so firm in my beliefs and why I rarely budge. Though don't get me wrong, I'm not the type to just say you're wrong. I'll explain in detail why I believe you to be wrong and it's up to you to decide whether you still believe in your beliefs and undertaking the task on explaining why you believe I'm wrong.

[Lee337]

I take the same views as Bourne, Elites views just seem pessimistic, like he is afraid to get hopes up.
I don't think that bringing the squaddies back will be as hard as you make out, Elite.
Every variable you have given can easily be checked as No and moved past without any backtracking on the story. The only one may be Thane in my opinion with his illness. One big reason for them all to stay is that the galaxy is at stake and they all know it. Imagine if you knew that a country was about to nuke your own country. You have the power to make a difference. Would you really go back to doing whatever you were doing and hope someone else will save you and your home?
Implementing them wouldn't be that difficult either. Like in both games they don't always have something to say as a group and only really talk on their own, the excepts being Liara and the VS in ME1 and Jacob, Miranda and Mordin in ME2.
The VS could come back as they aren't dead and take up a plot essential space. Maybe a new character or two could replace Miranda and Jacob for example if they are dead and essential.
The consequences for your squaddie dying could be that at a point in the game there is use for them, and if they aren't there something goes badly. If they are it goes well.
If they aren't essential then they only need a few lines to pipe into group conversations at times. Theres never been any huge discussions with all of them piping in. These could just be done in the same way the normal quest missions are done when the characters all say something different depending on who is there. ME2 even had Legion available in Garrus mission, if you hack the game a little you can get legion first, or any other crew mate. All the content was made they just decided to alter the availability of some of them to suit the story better.

[Elite Midget]

What's the point of getting your hopes up when the only facts we have crush said hopes anyway? Maybe I see it as being harder than it really is but from my limited experiences in aiding in game developments I know how frustateing such things can be, There must be a reason 'why' Bioware put all these Variables in that almost always involve the Squaddie leaving.

If there was a point in the game they're needed than why not make them temp Squaddies than instead of trying to sort out this headache? It would be much more awesome if Commander Garrus has a special Mission for Shepard and it's just the two of them doing the impossible again just like old times. Dureing this time he would send his new Squad with Shepard's current Squad to hold the line while they handle the top secret infiltration mission.

[Lee337]

Elite Midget wrote...

With the variables being the only facts we know I cannot ignore them and stand by each and every one of them.

I think that the variables are pretty weak.

Garrus - Leaving Variables

-Time Skip 
We don't yet know what Shepard is doing and this time Shepard isn't dead.

-Possible Death 
He's not dead in my game.

-Unloyal
Garrus is loyal, hejoined straight back up with Shep. The loyalty is a game mecahnic.

-Hinted by Bioware that Garrus will/must leave to reach full potiential. Garrus has a history of leaving. 
But that doesn't mean he has to leave yet. Garrus leaves because he believes that people hold him back from getting the job done. Shepard gets the job done.

-Bioware has shown that LIs don't have to stay in your Party ala VS/Liara.
They don't have to leave either. This isn't a reason for them to leave.

-Hit it and Quit It. - That makes no sense to me.


Samara - Leaving Variables (only incluing those that are different)

-Unloyal. 
Game mechanic, even if it's not fighting the reapers is a more worthy cause for her than anything else.
-If Shepard is Renegade.
May have an effect, but Shepard did save the galaxy. Samara isn't exactly Paragon herself, the first scene she is in she kills the defenceless merc.
-Code compells her to leave instead of doing nothing for years.
This is under the assumption that Shep andco are just going to sit back with a cup of coffee and wait for the reapers to come. If she does leave during that time, it is just as likely she would come back.

Tali - Leaving Variables

-Unloyal.
She might be angry if you gave the data to the admiralty board, could have an effect. But she might also realise that the reapers mission is too important to let personal feelings get in the way.

-Foreshadowing by Bioware on a future Quarian Civil War or reignited conflict with the Geth.
Possible but it's also possible that Tali remains with you if you activated Legion then resolving the matter peacefully is a possibility. Tali also supports the idea of taking her homeworld back, so she might encourage war, if she is dead, she cant and the Quarians may reach another conclusion. It isn't essential that she is there, since if she is dead she won't be anyway and if she is a live she be brought on  mission there.

Jacob - Leaving Variables

-If with Cerberus he returns to his old Job is Miranda lives. If not he's assigned elsewhere by TIM.
-If not with Cerberus than possible placed under Andersan by Shepard vouching with mention of Cerberus history.

Jacob joined up with Cerberus to do the right thing without the red tape. If Shep is still fighting thr reapers there is no reason for him to go back to any other job.

I could do this for all of them, except Thane, but they could explain that by the medical science isn't always accurate arguement.

[Lee337]

Elite Midget wrote...

 There must be a reason 'why' Bioware put all these Variables in that almost always involve the Squaddie leaving.

To make them feel like they are characters with backgrounds, lives, ambitions. They didn't know of the reaper threat when recruited, they do now. Things change.
Yesterday I said I was going to go to the shops. Then I didn't. Changed my mind. Things change.

If there was a point in the game they're needed than why not make them temp Squaddies than instead of trying to sort out this headache? It would be much more awesome if Commander Garrus has a special Mission for Shepard and it's just the two of them doing the impossible again just like old times. Dureing this time he would send his new Squad with Shepard's current Squad to hold the line while they handle the top secret infiltration mission.

I disagree, because you miss out on the relationship side of things andyour ship would just be empty of full of a load of new characters and that would increase the amount of content.
It may seem like a headache to you but this is something that they could have been thinking about and working on since they started the original game. How they are going to implement you choices. The ways others, like Borne, have explained it make it seem less complicated. I think you are overwhelming yourself with all the variables and it is clouding your ability to look objectively.

[Bluko]

Elite Midget wrote...

Since many here are sure that the Dead simply Must return I've decided to make an easy thread that will prove said mindset wrong. Thus don't expect a lot of text since that tends to push away the fanatics who will use tl dr as an excuse. With that said, here we go!

--Snip--

Yep pretty much.

I think ME2 squadmates are going to be slotted entirely to cameo roles myself, that way if they are dead they can easily have another "placeholder" NPC take their place or they simply won't be present. If anything look at how ME2 turned out. I really think Tali and Garrus were an exception and were only added to ME2 cause they frankly barely had any significant impact/character development in ME1. Liara couldn't die either and look where she ended up in ME2. That was for a character who couldn't die and they still got cameo treatment. I mean for Tali the only thing you do is give her some Geth data. She literally has no other development. Garrus? You just help him catch and kill Dr. Saleon. Other then helping you incriminate Saren their roles are pretty minute compared to:

Liara - Helps you understand the visions
Ashley/Kaidan - One of them ends up taking one for the team
Wrex - Confronts you about the Genophage issue


Yes we are all just speculating. But prior evidence seems to contradict the idea of ME2 squadmates returning as feasible.

Also you were not gathering your ME2 crew to battle the Reapers. You gathered them to stop the Collectors. That was it. Nobody made any lifeservice pledges to help Shepard stop the Reapers themselves. They were there for the suicide mission, and Shepard as a favor, nothing more.

Look ME3 is a new story. There has to be new characters. It has to be it's own game. Making ME3 so that you literally have to play ME2 to know who your crew is stupid. The game has to be understandable for new players, which is hard enough considering they're entering the final chapter. Throwing 10-12 characters at them they don't know, but are suppose to know will not work. Think about it.

And why do people hate the cameo roles so much anyways? It's better then everyone being gone entirely, which they could just as easily do. But they don't cause the cameo roles already are a "fan service" whether you think so or not. It's ridiculous to think that just because a past character is popular Bioware should make them a main part of ME3's story (which is what squadmates are). That's silly and it will ruin the integrity of the story.


Anyways I appreciate what you've tried to do here OP. As I attempted to do such before myself. But you do need to realize that ultimately we are all just speculating and that there are no facts and that it's possible all squadmates could return, only some might return, or none may return at all. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a "Troll".

[Lee337]

Bluko wrote...

Also you were not gathering your ME2 crew to battle the Reapers. You gathered them to stop the Collectors. That was it. Nobody made any lifeservice pledges to help Shepard stop the Reapers themselves. They were there for the suicide mission, and Shepard as a favor, nothing more.

Look ME3 is a new story. There has to be new characters. It has to be it's own game. Making ME3 so that you literally have to play ME2 to know who your crew is stupid. The game has to be understandable for new players, which is hard enough considering they're entering the final chapter. Throwing 10-12 characters at them they don't know, but are suppose to know will not work. Think about it.

Would you walk away from the biggest threat that has ever existed saying "Not my problem Shepard, I said I would help you stop the collectors, not the reapers. Now I'm off home for a beer. Reapers are your problem, not mine!"

You forget Garrus and Tali. And the cameos would make no sense to new players either. Plus it is a direct sequel, and new players will understand that. There's no huge backstory in ME2 on Xboxand PC, because they assume you played ME1 and if you didn't you'll have to play it to fully understand the story. PS3 got the comic because there was no ME1. Every triology including movies will have characters in that you don't know. you will get to know them altough not as well as you would if you watched the previous 2 movies.
Think about soap operas too. There aren't a whole bunch of new characters each week. Whenever someone new starts watching you have to get to know them from that point. They don't inform you of the previous 20 years of story just to appease someone new.

[Elite Midget]

That troll thing started around Page 5. If you read what had occured from Page 5 to Page 9 you would understand why I resorted to such a name. It was so bad that a Mod had to come in here and discipline us all.

Cameo's are fanservice and not seeing them wont effect new players. What will effect new players is missing Squaddies or being thrown a bunch of characters with no backstory. Hell, ME2 gave Tali and Garrus more backstory than ME1 could have hoped to give them. Simply put ME1 really left Tali and Garrus underdeveloped compared to the others. Especially when compared to Liara,

This is a game not a Movie or a Novel. First impressions are everything espeacially in a Casual Majority market.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Okay...

wait wait wait...

So... What you're saying... Is that it's cheaper (CHEAPER, mind you)... To hire completely new voice actors... Create completely new character designs... And put completely new characters -- at least six of 'em -- into the game's plot... AND pay the old voice actors to do cameo appearances...

Than to just keep the same characters from the original two games.

... Am I the only one seeing this? This isn't just me, is it?

Yeah, the expense thing kinda died when someone brought up how true/false flags worked.

Now the new argument is that it's unfair to the people with only 2 survivors or that it would be better story-wise to have new characters or something.

I still stand we should get 4 new squadmates + VS in ME3.
Not saying is unfair for me, it's me to blame for that, but I highly doubt Bioware should force me to play entire ME3 playthrough solo( I strongly believe Kasumi and Samara will leave).

[Lee337]

Elite Midget wrote...

That troll thing started around Page 5. If you read what had occured from Page 5 to Page 9 you would understand why I resorted to such a name. It was so bad that a Mod had to come in here and discipline us all.

Cameo's are fanservice and not seeing them wont effect new players. What will effect new players is missing Squaddies or being thrown a bunch of characters with no backstory. Hell, ME2 gave Tali and Garrus more backstory than ME1 could have hoped to give them. Simply put ME1 really left Tali and Garrus underdeveloped compared to the others. Especially when compared to Liara,

This is a game not a Movie or a Novel. First impressions are everything espeacially in a Casual Majority market.

Reading the last book in the Girl with the Dragon Tatoo first would confuse the hell out of people.  Just because it is a game doesn't make a new cast essential.

[mcsupersport]

By the indications in Arrival(leaked pics and the like) the Reapers will be showing up within DAYS of ME2. I don't know how they will handle this, but if they make my team say, "Sorry, got to go, even though the REAPERS ARE COMING IN THE BACK DOOR!!!", I will lose the last of my faith in Bioware. The main variable on how many characters stay will depend on what time amount has passed from ME2 to ME3. IF they make it like the Arrival DLC leaks, then most or all living squaddies should be back. IF they make it like the time between me1-me2(years with Sheps death), then yeah, some may leave. The only squaddies I don't expect back at all as squadmates are Liara who is shadowbroker, and Wrex who is a clan leader, and all others can/should be AT LEAST temporary squaddies.


Kasumi has a great open story in the grey box data.

Zaeed, may stay or go depending on time elapsed.

Garrus, come on he will be there on pain of fan riot.

Tali will be there on pain of fan riot.

VS will be in, because one thing they said plainly was the VS and Liara weren't in ME2 to make sure they survived for ME3.

Samara, should stay if the time limit is reasonable, to let the universe die is not in her code.

Thane, depending on his health/time, would be the only limiting factor, not going to let his son get killed just because he wants a beer.

Miranda, considering her plot armor, she most likely already has her cabin picked out.

Jacob, don't see any reason for him to leave, unless he is dead.

Grunt--Shepard is his battlemaster, and the game(prey) is big so why should he leave??

Legion, has teamed up to stop the old machines, unless you totally went against him, he would stay to give help.


Most of this will greatly depend on time elapsed, but by the latest indications that is going to be a very small window, which will greatly increase the likelihood of most/all living squaddies coming back.


Yes, Bioware could just handwave and give us a whole new squad, but that would be business suicide to do so. They have built up a story and characters that many people love and respond too. If Bioware then just totally wipes out all that, then it would cause a massive issue with the fans, greatly hurting all future sales and products. You have to remember that ME has been a story where you build relationships with the universe and the characters within it, so to totally scrap all that would greatly diminish the story, which would hurt sales and future fan support, all of which is not smart..

Modifié par mcsupersport, 27 mars 2011 - 07:58 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Elite Midget wrote...

A true Fan doesn't settle for less. Since the ME2 Squaddies can all die you would be settling for meager scraps by having them back as Squaddies that can't have anything to do with the plot. By making them Squaddies you take away the chance for themn to grow. Such as Garrus gettin his own Team or Tali joining the Admirality Board.

Thus yes. a true fan woul be willing to let go of the dead and allow them to advance far from just being another face you can choose for a mission without any real plot relevance. Hell, ME2 had no plot relevance outside Miranda and Mordin which was because Bioware added way too many Squaddies and put the story in the backseat.

So no, you aren't a true Fan because you would stubbornly demand that the Characters, despite all Variables, only go with the Perfect Variable and not to evolve outside of being Shepard's Guns. No, a True Fan is someone who care for all characters equally and demands equal treatment for all of them and not just a select popular few.

Bioware can but I doubt Bioware will ignore the facts they made just to appease the few that got a Perfect ME2 save. Not everyone plays through the game more than once and not everyone got all Loyalties or saved anyone. Than there's the obvious things such as Samara and Thane which I mentioned time and again.

Based on your later reference to this page I was curious and came back to read some things. I also read the OP a few days ago and find that this entire post contradicts the OP and what you later say.

In the OP you describe why characters won't return as squadmates. Later you describe how cameos are detrimental to characters. You are basing all of this on the assumption that a character has either died or survived.

Now, if cameos are detrimental to the development of characters and you believe that the characters can't be on Shepard's team, what do you want? Dead squadmates to stay dead? Of course they will. Shepard didn't carry their bodies out when he blew the base and thus they can't be resurrected and besides it would be a waste of resources and invalidate the entire suicide mission.

Are you asking for the characters to come back only as story relevant characters so that they can "develop"? If so, you're assuming that a player's save contains your self-titled perfect variable of survival, which in most cases means loyalty as well.

Your argument contains several logical inconsistencies if I must be perfectly honest. You want characters to develop by leaving the "nest", you don't want characters to be resurrected, and you don't want meaningless cameos. The only conclusion I can reach based on that is that you want the characters to have story relevance, which from a developer standpoint is next to impossible given the two year dev cycle, especially if they have to account for a ton of other variables unrelated to the squadmates.

A character could technically have story relevance but it would be superficial. Really, from a reasonable point of view, the only options for Bioware are A) bring them back as squadmates if they survive (because then all they have to do is write, record, and code dialog for that character) or Bring them back as a meaningless cameo like Ashley/Kaidan.

The best you can hope for is a statistical importance, like if you got Garrus out alive he leads a team and helps save a few systems that would otherwise be lost or if Tali becomes an Admiral (a terrible, terrible idea and I love her character) and helps you get the fleet in to either protect or evacuate systems.

If you aren't asking for any of the above examples or ones like them, you are being unreasonable and unsympathetic. Bioware can only do so much in two years. Expecting entire missions based around Shepard and a squad working alongside Garrus and his squad is unreasonable.

[AquamanOS]

That's....actually a very good point. Having so called "Temp Squadie" status (when the heck has that ever happened for longer than 5 minutes outside of Shadow Broker?) would be even harder than having them there as a silent gun (because face it, that's what 90 percent of ME squadmates are) because you'd have to have entire scenarios based around them to be cut out. That would be hard. Having them as a non story critical squadmate that's self contained ala most of the ME2 guys would be much easier.

Of course there will be some new squadmates. Probably 2 or 3 to fulfill the Ash/Kaiden Miranda/Jacob role of "Squadmate who does most of the talking in Normandy cutscenes because you can't avoid having them there. Ash/Kaiden could even take this spot, since at least one of them has to be there. Only thing that might suffer is Kaiden's personality since their shared spot is more Ash oriented thanks to Male Shep being the default.

And of course some will probably be removed like Mordin who is alive will be the lab guy only because that's really all he was in ME2 with him being a squadmate more of a gameplay thing.

But that's how I see it. Few new guys and VS, plus whoever survived in ME2. If you got everyone killed, (which you have to do on purpose basically) you've still got enough to get through the game and it will be notably emptier, but you probably wanted that if you killed everyone. If you're starting with ME3, well this time they can make the default options not quite as bad and just about everyone lived unlike a default ME2 start.

Squadmates are most likely going to be like ME2 with them not really being critical to the story. Disapointing? Maybe. But that's how ME has rolled so far, and they aren't gonna change it now.

A few other points.
1. This time skip you keep mentions is as of right now, only a few months. And during these few months Shepard is active and working off the grid. Shepard is not sitting around with Joker and Edi drinking beer and waiting for the Reapers to arrive before getting up and doing something about it,

2, Stand alone doesn't always mean reset the status quo totally. All the Star Wars films are supposedly stand alone yet start at Return of the Jedi and while you will figure it out eventually, you'll be lost at first. And we know ME3 is directly tied into 2. 2 ends with the Reapers moving in, and in 3, the Reapers attacking are the main point of the story. You seem to be expecting a ME2 style quick reset, new enemy, only small refrences to previous game, when all we know of 3 right now points to the contrary.

3. Please please stop comparing DA and ME. Totally different teams, totally different story, totally different game mechanics. In the case of party members doubly so. In DA party members are fully customizeable and playable characters. They have large skill trees, and you can opt to ignore Warden/Hawke and play the whole game as Alistar/Varric. They all are story important characters be design because in the first game Warden was a silent protagonist and they needed more dialogue to compensate. In 2 although Hawke talks they didn't change the party mechanics too much.

In ME all squadmates are coverfire for the almighty commander Shepard. Shepard is the only PC, and the most customizable character. Especially in 2 when squadmates get 2 weapon types and only 3 abilties. In the story Shepard gets 90 percent of the dialogue and is the unstoppable hero. Squadmates are only backup for that. That isn't going to change in 3

Modifié par AquamanOS, 27 mars 2011 - 10:45 .

[Dave666]

Ok, I'm tired of hearing this and Elite knows that I completely disagree with his viewpoint, we've argued this a few times now, however in the spirit of keeping things civil and furthering the discussion I will offer a small counterpoint.  Elite has said that, because Squad Members can die he feels that it is logical to scrap them all rather than simply return the ones that survived because it would take work for Bioware to create all of said characters again (VA's, dialog,possible plot and story relevance etc).  Up to a point, and only a point, he's right, IF Bioware wanted to do this, his viewpoint COULD be used to explain it.

However consider this, if they did this then the fans (their customers, you know, the ones who buy their product) would largely be offended.  Offending your customers is an excellent way to get them to not buy any more of your products.  At one point I heard one of the devs talking about the criticism that ME:2 had a 'weak story' they countered this by saying 'They just don't get it, the characters ARE the story' (or words to that effect).  So if the Characters ARE the story, then what happens if you remove them?  If Bioware were intending to remove or replace all of the characters, then why even bother to make them survivable?  Why not kill them all off in heroic ways leaving only Shepard at the end?  (With decent writing it could be pulled off).

As for relegating them all to cameo's...

As far as I am aware the standard practice is to pay VA's per project, not per line, so lets say we cameo Tali, that means that not only do we have to pay Liz Sroka for the lines that she would deliver as Tali, but they would also have to pay a second VA, because Tali could be dead in someones playthrough (think Wrex and Wreave).  They also have to come up with a damned good reason for Tali to not be in your squad to appease fans.  (Not sure if anything could appease some Talimancers mind). They would then also have to do this for all of the other characters too.

OR they could simply return all characters and if someone is dead in your playthrough then you miss out and they only have to pay one VA and it means that ME:3 has replayability for people who want to see what happens if x character died.  All that is necessary at this point is to give the characters a small role to play, if Tali is alive and in your squad then when you speak to the Quarians she might have some useful information that makes it easier to sway them etc. Without Tali in this example you can STILL sway the Quarians, but its MUCH harder.  Same with Legion and the Geth etc.  Perhaps Mordin has some old colleagues in the STG that might be able to help us at some point, having him with us might make things easier.  Perhaps having Thane with you may have some relevance to the Hanar etc

There are plenty of ways of giving squaddies relevance without everything hinging on them.

I've also seen you argue repeatedly about Time Skips, and while that happened in ME:2, what makes you so sure that there will be one in ME:3?  The Reapers could arrive a week after the Suicide Mission for all we know, so Thane dying and Mordin getting old etc do not necessarily have to be issues.

[AquamanOS]

He's talking about that Anderson focused novel where as of few months after ME2, Shepard's operating off the grid doing something unknown and the Reaper's are still on their way. But like I said, that doesn't mean Shepard's sitting around having a beer with Joker and listening to EDI sing karaoke. Shep's doing something. ME3 could show some of that to be honest.

There's also another comic out in September but I don't know what that's supposed to be about. Pretty sure it's not Shepard though.

[lovgreno]

Elite Midget wrote...

What's the point of getting your hopes up when the only facts we have crush said hopes anyway?

Because we as consumers must make the producers of the products we desire give us the best quality they can make. This is our money and we deserve the best for it. If we don't have high demands of the producers we will get bad products. No one else will make them strive for higher quality.

No one (except those that are terrified of ever looking outside their own little box but they are irrelevant) expects that we will get everything we want. Some demands are possible to meet, some are not. But they can't do their best to please us if we don't tell them what we want.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

A few notes:

Voice Actors are paid by the hour, but it's actually often the cost of voice production other than the Actor's salary that cause it to be expensive - renting studio time usually costs more than the actor is making. Bioware has literally hours of dialogue in its game that you will probably never hear unless you're a crazy person - every sqad member has something they can say if they're along on a particular mission, there are dozens and dozens of randomly discoverable unlockable banter, Bioware records whole conversations and creates whole quests for two characters whom a significant number of players never even activate or encounter in any way (Legion and Grunt).

Also, it's almost always less labor-intensive (by several order of magnitude) to re-use a character design or model than it is to create an entirely new one.

I've posted the following in every Midget thread, and he's yet to respond to it, but I'll do it one more time:

Bioware has released stats saying that, on average, 15% of squadmates die on the final mission. That means that the average squadmate has only a 1.5% chance of being dead in any given save game. (Yes I am aware that some squadmates die more often, this allows bioware to use these numbers even better.)

Therefore, if bioware puts in a Miranda mission, only 1.5% of people will miss it. If they put in a Grunt mission, only 1.5% of people will miss it... you see where I'm going here.

Forums suggest that a decent portion of people don't activate Legion or do his mission... and Legion is the character whose mission most directly affects the main plot.

Let me repeat that: Bioware was willing to give you a choice that let you skip the most plot-relevant character mission in the game. They could just as easily said "This is important, don't give them a choice to skip this character and make his loyalty mission required," but they didn't! This shows that they are perfectly willing to allow people to miss giant swaths of important content based on their decisions - and I don't see why this would stop being the case when it comes to ME3.

To sum up:
A mission that is unavailable due to a particular squad-mate being dead will be unavailable to only a tiny minority of players.

Bioware has shown a willingness to allow players to miss or skip massive portions of story-related content, based on their choices.

There will be a new default save that Bioware can tailor to make sure those who play ME3 as a stand-alone game will not be inconvenienced too much.

The few players who might get unlucky enough that they are missing multiple recurring squadmates can decide whether to roleplay that loss or use the new default file instead.

[Phaedon]

Elite Midget wrote...

They may be the only ones needed in your opinion but you cannit deny the existance of others. We know not how relevant they all will end up being thus we should go on the assumption that they're all equally important in the grand scheme of things. That or we can go with them all being unimportant but that might be redundant since clearly at least one has to be important.
.

This is just obvious hypocrisy. There has been a topic on this which included a list of all the variables needed, and you would invade it now and then to say that Bioware would  ignore everyone, characterizing the squaddies as 'zombies' and insulting anyone who disagreees with you.

To end this, at least temporarily, here is a list of all of the variables that could be produced from ME2, even though most of those are not needed at all.

Garrus Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Sidonis Alive Yes/No
Grunt Alive Yes/No
Jack Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Base destroyed Yes/No
Random Guy killed Yes/No
Jacob Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Father Abandoned Yes/No (unecessary)
Legion Alive Yes/No
Heretics brainwashed Yes/No
Miranda Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Talked to sister Yes/No
Mordin Alive Yes/No
Files kept Yes/No
Samara Alive Yes/No
LM Yes/No
Tali Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Exiled Yes/No
Evidence Given Yes/No
Legion conflict taken side Yes/No
Tali's side taken Yes/No
Thane Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
LM Done Yes/No

These all operate on true/false flags. Which mean, that if a flag is considered as false, then you simply miss the content that you could have gotten if it was true. If Bioware is generous, they can add some sort of e-mail or NPC to make the experience better.

Modifié par Phaedon, 27 mars 2011 - 01:23 .