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[GuardianAngel470]

Elite Midget wrote...

GuardianAngel470

Not just the variables or either dead or alive. It was an example but I assure you that I have ideas for how each of thse leaving variables would work. Such as Legion being sent to Cerberus would only get passing mention but nothing really relevant due to being taken apart over and over again for study. Besides, the Suicide Mission wasen't really that valid anyway. I see no reason why 'anyone' had to die at all. All that was changed in the cutscenes when they died was that they were doing something stupid. Apparantly being unloyal or Shepard messing up making his squaddies mental defective,

Just because I want them to be plot relevant in their cameo's doesn't mean that I'm ignoreing the Loyalty Aspect. Obviously unloyal survivors that do appear would have their scenerio's handled out differently. Such as Garrus not even appearing as a Leader but he's instead still trying to hunt down Sidonis since it was never addressed in ME2 due to not doing his loyalty quest. You would still run into him but it would gbe at a different place and the reception would be less than warm. After all you did put his problems on the backburner than never addressed them thus he hasen't grown past his hatred he had in ME2.


They can easily have story relevance though. Such as in ME3 another Squad is sent on another mission. OIf Garrus is alive he leads it and succeds. If he's dead/unloyal than a grunt leads it and fails thus causeing more casualties and making the fight seem even more hopeless. It's the little things that matter, no?

Bioware had no problems with meaningless cameo's in the past. Look at how ME2 and DA2 handled them. What I hope is that Bioware has grown accostumed to cameo's and will understand that as the last part of the trilogy fans expect a certian respect taken over the killables that may have moved on. If you're wondering, yes that's a pun over Thane's unavoidable death that we know of.


That's what I see as happening. However, even though I have a bleak version of the path Bioware may take due to the facts on the Table I still hope that respect is given to the killables. After all this is the last game they will be in outside of spin-offs that may not even happen or include them. Yeah it sucks that they're all killables along with other leaving Variables but Bioware made that choice when they made ME2. Clearly they planned for something grander for the Squaddies than just being Squaddies again. Thus the reasons for putting this variables in when the game could easily have done without them. Namely the killable variable that shouldn't have been used after the hell the Wrex killable variable gave off.


Yes I'm expecting one of those to be the case. As the others that want Squaddies to return I'm also unreasonable in the regard that I want them all to be treated with the outmost respect. Such as making them grow as Characters and having their presence in ME3 important and beyond just another gun shooting at Giant Reaper Fleets. You may be right on expecting missions but it's an unreasonable wish that I hold even though I know that it's very unlikely to occure outside DLC.

Elite, I want to do a thought experiment with you if I could. Try to image how a situation like the one you describe with Garrus would happen. Try to image each line of dialog of a similar length to that of Sidonis (approx. 3-8 minutes). Do this for both your first example and your second.

Now, with those lines in mind, imagine animating Shepard's and Garrus' faces, including Garrus' mandibles. Now imagine animating their bodies, including hand gestures. I'll help a bit: Garrus as Vengeful would likely be using angry, sharp hand gestures while Garrus as loyal would use calm, accepting hand gestures.

Now imagine doing the artwork and 3D modeling of the surrounding environment, including furniture, locale, and the like. For instance, if the two of them are on Illium, creating the background artwork for the area or if they are on some unkown planet, creating completely unique environments that have to be brainstormed.

Having imgained those challenges, now move on the hiring and taking the time to do multiple takes with Garrus and Shepard's two VA's.

Now make sure that that scene is bug free on hardware ranging from the Xbox, the PS3, Nvidia's 9800 and less series, Nvidia's 200 series, Nvidia's 300M series, Nvidia's 400 series, their 500 series, ATI's entire range of products, Intel and AMD's entire range of products (within reason) without game breaking bugs.

Now fit the dialog, setting, animations, and everything else into the rest of the game properly while accounting for the possibility that Garrus is dead (which ultimately means going through the above process for an entirely different character since it would make no sense for the fate of a battle to hinge on a nameless, faceless, unintroduced NPC).

What you ask for is an enormous task and you make the assumption that Bioware could do it properly. I find this strange and contradictory based on the pessimism of your past posts. You repeatedly state that Bioware isn't what it was and that DA2 was a failure yet you expect them to succeed in implementing your suggestions. I'm going to continue to ignore the fact that in all probability these decisions have already been made and been at least partially implemented and state that Bioware aren't gods. They don't think things and make them happen, they can't make time slow down.

If they were Valve I might agree with you since Valve has a history of taking a long time to make a game (L4D2 notwithstanding) but they aren't. They have a two year dev cycle and only many overnighters in the office could come close to making your suggestion possible for EVERY character ON TOP of the development of the main plot.

This might work with just Garrus or just Samara, but Bioware could not do this with every character and make a game that made any sense at all.

[Dave666]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

I mentioned Temp Squaddie status or important cameo's that can change certian things in the plot. Such as Garrus having a team that can do a suicidal mission while Shepard is on the other side of the Universe. Shepard can't be everywhere and everyone else has proven incompetent outside those that had served under him in the past. I mean, look at how important Liara, Wrex(He kinda got screwed still), and VS are! Liara is the SB, Wrex is head of his own Clan, and VS is a decorated Warhero and operates under Andersan.

What Admirals do we even know other than Hackett and the Quarian ones? Aria claims she's the boss but I hasen't shown any real Leadership, other than power, and no instances of military competence.

Who said anything about loyalty missions again? They could easily drop it and go the ME1 route where as you go through the Main Story you get new Squaddies. In ME1 you didn't need to do anyones side quest and you weren't punished too bad if you were a Paragon or Renegade.

As for the other posts. There's like 4 or so very large ones so it'll take me a while to go through them all. You explained yourself in great detail thus I should read them throughly. It being the weekend though and the time of cleaning it might be awhile if I don't forget.

Edit: [Reading the last book in the Girl with the Dragon Tatoo first would confuse the hell out of people.  Just because it is a game doesn't make a new cast essential.]

Books are Linear and don't have variables or the such. If a characters dies because the creators wants it to be so than they're dead. In ME2 you have the option of getting someone killed or you have the option of keeping them alive. That isn't as linear as a book and opens up multiple variables that which aren't always the same in every save.

How is that not a meaningless cameo? Based on some of the things you've said in this thread, it would be EASIER to have new squaddies and have the other characters break up and form squads of their own.

Now that simply isn't possible from a design perspective. You have to create new, unique character models, you have to hire more VA's, ones that haven't been used too much if at all in the rest of the game, you have to code their dialog, you have to write their dialog, you have to write their recruitment, and you have to create their power and weapons loadouts, balancing them against the rest of the crew and Shepard.

On top of that, you need to write the dialog for the leaving characters, code their dialog, write their situations, present them to Shepard believably, pay the VA's for each character, and all the rest for a superficial encounter that has a statistical relevance. Unless of course you mean a true relevance, as in members of Shepard's new team die if Garrus isn't there and again, I reach a contradiction in your logic. You are assuming, based on your own definition of the Perfect Variable, that Garrus or whoever survives to do this.

If they didn't, then you are essentially asking Bioware to create a huge amount of content for something some people wouldn't see. This makes it harder.

It would be easier to relegate the characters to squadmates and have them not be there and not be replaced if they died. That means that Bioware only has to write one set of dialog, code one set of dialog, reuse character models, and many other shortcuts and only have to worry about some gamers not seeing it. There would only be one type of content that gamers would never see.

Though, as others have stated, it isn't likely that they would actually take quite that route because there is a ton of content that I have never seen in ME2.

TL;DR:

It is easier to make all living squadmates return as squadmates due to real world developer concerns and to not replace those that have died with throwaway crew due to those same concerns.

Thank you! I have been trying to explain this for I don't know how long and just kept getting the words 'variables' and 'retcons' thrown in my face.

[Almostfaceman]

Dave666 wrote...

Thank you! I have been trying to explain this for I don't know how long and just kept getting the words 'variables' and 'retcons' thrown in my face.

Many times before in this debate (spanning two threads that I know of) it has been pointed out to Elite that cost can go up with either approach.  I think what it really comes down to with Elite is that he doesn't consider it "fair" that people who kill off their squadmates have to "pay" for that choice in ME3 by missing out on content.  That's just my take though.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 28 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[Dave666]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Thank you! I have been trying to explain this for I don't know how long and just kept getting the words 'variables' and 'retcons' thrown in my face.

Many times before in this debate (spanning two threads that I know of) it has been pointed out to Elite that cost can go up with either approach.  I think what it really comes down to with Elite is that he doesn't consider it "fair" that people who kill off their squadmates have to "pay" for that choice in ME3 by missing out on content.  That's just my take though.

I would hope not, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and just assume he's as stubborn as a mule because it is remarkably easy to get a playthrough with all surviving.  I have 27 playthroughs and only 1 of which is NOT all survive (first playthrough lost Mordin), these are just from me playing the game and having fun with Insanity.

[Wittand25]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Now that simply isn't possible from a design perspective. You have to create new, unique character models, you have to hire more VA's, ones that haven't been used too much if at all in the rest of the game, you have to code their dialog, you have to write their dialog, you have to write their recruitment, and you have to create their power and weapons loadouts, balancing them against the rest of the crew and Shepard.

You have to do the same with returning Squad-mates. The only difference is that a new squad mate is available to every player, a returning one not unless they make a default everybody survives scenario for ME3 and that would make ME2 totally pointless since you actually would get punished for importing and not rewarded.

On top of that, you need to write the dialog for the leaving characters, code their dialog, write their situations, present them to Shepard believably, pay the VA's for each character, and all the rest for a superficial encounter that has a statistical relevance. Unless of course you mean a true relevance, as in members of Shepard's new team die if Garrus isn't there and again, I reach a contradiction in your logic. You are assuming, based on your own definition of the Perfect Variable, that Garrus or whoever survives to do this.

The encounter is shorter than a full squad member, so the cost for voice acting is lower. The encounter is limited to a specific time and place, so it is easier to write it than a squad-member who can be present any time at any place in the game. There presence can influence quests, persuasion checks  and similar and for that you only need some extra lines. E.g. Wrex on Virmire instead of Wreave does not change gameplay but offers only an emotional reward for importing players.

It would be easier to relegate the characters to squadmates and have them not be there and not be replaced if they died. That means that Bioware only has to write one set of dialog, code one set of dialog, reuse character models, and many other shortcuts and only have to worry about some gamers not seeing it. There would only be one type of content that gamers would never see.

Old NPCs do not have plot hooks, so they are harder to insert to the story. Since the survivors can be any two NPcs a imported game might only consist of biotics (Kaidan,Liara,Wrex, Samara, Jack and not have tech or soldier powers so it is impossible to balance this. Squad mate are the biggest and most important part of Bioware games so making some that you can not get access to if you have the wrong import is a big waste of resources and it would be foolish for Bioware to do this. Note I say can not access so this does not apply to Grunt or Legion in ME2 because you always can have them even if you are not forced to recruit them.

It is easier to make all living squadmates return as squadmates due to real world developer concerns and to not replace those that have died with throwaway crew due to those same concerns.

You are wrong. The only thing you do not have to do for returning squad mates is casting for new voice actors.The design of both appearance and powers would be as hard as for new squad mates. The writing for them and interactions with Shepard would be harder to do.

Not to mention that starting the game with a full squad makes it less accessible for the majority of the customer base (everyone who is not posting here and likely already has forgotten most about the ME2 squad mates) and is a bad design decision for that reason alone.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Wittand25 wrote...

You are wrong. The only thing you do not have to do for returning squad mates is casting for new voice actors.The design of both appearance and powers would be as hard as for new squad mates. The writing for them and interactions with Shepard would be harder to do.

Not to mention that starting the game with a full squad makes it less accessible for the majority of the customer base (everyone who is not posting here and likely already has forgotten most about the ME2 squad mates) and is a bad design decision for that reason alone.

This is different from what I know about game design. I've worked in game development for several years [*standard "never worked for Bioware!" disclaimer], and requested hundreds of art assets. It is almost ALWAYS easier to modify an existing design than make an entirely new one, even in cases where you are massively upgrading graphics or switching engines. Asking an artist for "an updated Geth juggernaut model" is tons easier to get then devising an entirely new and heretofore unseen kind of Geth. It's easier to animate the old council than animate some entirely new council. I'm not sure why this is, especially when switching graphics engines, but I've been on a project that underwent a massive graphics overhaul between iterations and it was still easier to get new models of old stuff than it was to get totally new stuff. I think it has something to do with something called "rigging?" Anyway, you'd have to ask an artist, but unless they have a vast conspiracy against devs who just want to add one new character dammit, it's cheaper and quicker to make a new version of an old one.

More than that, as a writer, I have to tell you that writing for old sqad mates would be significantly easier than writing for a new one, especially if they have writers back from the old game. One of the hardest things I ever have to do as a writer is design an NPC with a new voice, new attitude, and new mannerisms without making that character either a pale imitation of someone who has gone before or resorting to cliche. This is especially true when working inside the understood personality confines of a given "race," whether they be elf or alien. In the time it takes me to do all the background work for a new character, I can slip into the shoes of an old one and write forty pages of script. This is even true for characters I like, but didn't create... ask me to write ten quests for Deadpool, I could be done with the first pass in two days. Ask me to write ten quests for an entirely new superhero in the marvel universe which orgainically establish everything we know about that character's backstory, and that'll take me a week.

As for power design, that depends radically on how much the combat system will be overhauled next game. If they're just tweaking the existing system, it's easier to tweak existing characters. If they're making a change as radical as the change between ME1 and ME2, then it may be a wash. The only benefit to using old characters in that case is that they've already been concepted at least.

Old NPCs do not have plot hooks, so they are harder to insert to the story. Since the survivors can be any two NPcs a imported game might only consist of biotics (Kaidan,Liara,Wrex, Samara, Jack and not have tech or soldier powers so it is impossible to balance this. Squad mate are the biggest and most important part of Bioware games so making some that you can not get access to if you have the wrong import is a big waste of resources and it would be foolish for Bioware to do this. Note I say can not access so this does not apply to Grunt or Legion in ME2 because you always can have them even if you are not forced to recruit them.

The average player has only 15% of their squad dead, so it's highly unlikely that they would have only biotics left, etc. It seems that having a huge amount of squad mates die is something that needs to be done almost deliberately, so it would be percieved as a conscious choice. Just because you can make choices that cause you to be an outlier doesn't mean that those choices must all be equally beneficial. Also, the simple addition of 3-4 new characters in addition to the VS and however many returning squaddies we get will allow even the tiny minority of players who lost most of their squad to finish the game.

In an earlier post, I put foreward a sample default save game for ME3 if six sqaddies are brought back. TL:DR, you can make it so someone not importing misses out on 2 squaddies, whereas someone importing would be very unlikely (>1%) to miss 2. This is just one idea, I could come up with a dozen different solutions that result in loading a ME2 game being more beneficial than not doing so at least 98% of the time.

I think it remains to be seen whether Bioware will allow the decision not to have a particular squadmate carry between games. I contend that they would, as each missing character would only affect a very small minority of imported save games (approx 1.5%, see math earlier in this thread). Based on the huge number of players who obviously went out of their way to save all (or most) of their squadmates, I think Bioware risks disappointing a far larger percentage of players if they don't reward the vast, vast majority who did this than if they provide a minor inconvenience for those who did not.  Now, having 100% of squadmates return is probably unrealistic, I'd guess around 4-7, erring on the side of more.

Also, saying that returning characters don't have plot hooks is seriously underestimating consumers of modern media. Most shows start "in medias res" nowadays. If they start the game by jumping down on a planet to shoot robots with a badass alien sniper and a hot chick in a catsuit, most modern media conniseurs are  not going to be too upset if they don't know who they are for a little while. You can learn about them throughout the game, like you did for Kaidan and Ashley in the first game. I'd like to note that neither of them had "bonus backstory missions" in ME1, they were almost entirely developed through on-ship and incidental-bring-along dialogue, yet a lot of fans still care about them. Both of their plot hooks were "I'm in the military so I am here because it is my job," not the most compelling stuff, but with the addition of on-ship dialogue, it worked.

There's also the issue of "branding," which is dead boring and I apologize so I will try to make it quick. Some players will hear the name "Mass Effect 3" and think "Hey, I heard of those games on Attack of the Show. Aren't they the games with the hot girl in the white catsuit with the great butt?" Then they go to the store. If there's not a brunette with a great butt, they may not buy the game. Branding! (Bear in mind I'm making a point for my second to least favorite character's return. The sacrifices I make for you, the forum public.)

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 28 mars 2011 - 10:23 .

[Phaedon]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Thank you for getting this out of your system, Elite. I admire the time you took to pound that puppy out, and hopefully now that you've so vehemently vomited your bizarre and strange obsession into one convenient thread, it will be so much easier to get along with you everywhere else.

Now stop whining about how hard it is to make a sequel to a game with lots of carry-over variables and go outside. Spring is here, and the weather is lovely.

And stop acting like those of us who expect some returning squadmates don't know it's a sizeable endeavor.  It's the work that the Edmonton team has ALREADY put into the ME series that makes us confident that the final chapter will show just as much dedication and effort.

Haha, this is the reason why I love all of your posts.

[Wittand25]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
This is different from what I know about game design. I've worked in game development for several years [*standard "never worked for Bioware!" disclaimer], and requested hundreds of art assets. It is almost ALWAYS easier to modify an existing design than make an entirely new one, even in cases where you are massively upgrading graphics or switching engines. Asking an artist for "an updated Geth juggernaut model" is tons easier to get then devising an entirely new and heretofore unseen kind of Geth. It's easier to animate the old council than animate some entirely new council. I'm not sure why this is, especially when switching graphics engines, but I've been on a project that underwent a massive graphics overhaul between iterations and it was still easier to get new models of old stuff than it was to get totally new stuff. I think it has something to do with something called "rigging?" Anyway, you'd have to ask an artist, but unless they have a vast conspiracy against devs who just want to add one new character dammit, it's cheaper and quicker to make a new version of an old one.

Squad mates share or have at least very similar rigs. So unless something exotic like a Hanar or Elchor was added to the team the rig should not be a problem. So you only need a mesh and unless Bioware goes the cheapest way possible even the returning squad mates would need one of those anyway.

More than that, as a writer, I have to tell you that writing for old sqad mates would be significantly easier than writing for a new one, especially if they have writers back from the old game. One of the hardest things I ever have to do as a writer is design an NPC with a new voice, new attitude, and new mannerisms without making that character either a pale imitation of someone who has gone before or resorting to cliche. This is especially true when working inside the understood personality confines of a given "race," whether they be elf or alien. In the time it takes me to do all the background work for a new character, I can slip into the shoes of an old one and write forty pages of script. This is even true for characters I like, but didn't create... ask me to write ten quests for Deadpool, I could be done with the first pass in two days. Ask me to write ten quests for an entirely new superhero in the marvel universe which orgainically establish everything we know about that character's backstory, and that'll take me a week.

Judging by interviews of other writer several seem to disagree with you and actually prefer creating new NPCs instead on bringing back old ones. also there are already several NPCs in the ME universe who could get a place in the ME3 squad who already have a basic history to expand on and are nowhere near as much bound by the player´s decisions in ME1 and 2. The old characters have too many variables to handle them well. For your example that would be like writing quests for several versions of Deadpool that exist in alternative universes and still make them coherent. Miranda alone can be loyal or not, still work for TIM or have quitted and be romanced so you have six different Mirandas depending on import and for many if not most situations all six of them should have different dialog.

As for power design, that depends radically on how much the combat system will be overhauled next game. If they're just tweaking the existing system, it's easier to tweak existing characters. If they're making a change as radical as the change between ME1 and ME2, then it may be a wash. The only benefit to using old characters in that case is that they've already been concepted at least.

The average player has only 15% of their squad dead, so it's highly unlikely that they would have only biotics left, etc. It seems that having a huge amount of squad mates die is something that needs to be done almost deliberately, so it would be percieved as a conscious choice. Just because you can make choices that cause you to be an outlier doesn't mean that those choices must all be equally beneficial. Also, the simple addition of 3-4 new characters in addition to the VS and however many returning squaddies we get will allow even the tiny minority of players who lost most of their squad to finish the game.

3-4 new, the VS, Liara and the twelve old ones makes twenty fully developed squad-mates. Bioware does not have the time or money to make as many squad members, and todays RPG players lack the patience to deal with that many. And as writer should you not realize the amount of work need for that and how the plot and game flow would be negatively affected by having such a large group of people, who you need to talk to in order to learn more about them during the missions ?. And how frustrating it would be to get "Not now I am in the middle of some calibrations" most of the time as response for the players.

Also, saying that returning characters don't have plot hooks is seriously underestimating consumers of modern media. Most shows start "in medias res" nowadays. If they start the game by jumping down on a planet to shoot robots with a badass alien sniper and a hot chick in a catsuit, most modern media conniseurs are  not going to be too upset if they don't know who they are for a little while. You can learn about them throughout the game, like you did for Kaidan and Ashley in the first game. I'd like to note that neither of them had "bonus backstory missions" in ME1, they were almost entirely developed through on-ship and incidental-bring-along dialogue, yet a lot of fans still care about them. Both of their plot hooks were "I'm in the military so I am here because it is my job," not the most compelling stuff, but with the addition of on-ship dialogue, it worked.

Have you heard the term "Learning curve"? Having the whole team available at the start would make a rather horrible one. There is a reason why in every single Bioware game and practically all from other developers as well, you start with a small team and meet the rest of the team later.  And Kaidan and Ashley are a very bad example for your argument since Shepard meets Kaidan about a week before ME1 starts while you recruit Ashley during your very first mission so Shepard does not know either of them. And how should a new player get to know a team that Shepard has known for years? There is no reasonable way most of their back stories can come up again during normal conversations and forcing them to come up would be both cheesy and boring to returning players.

There's also the issue of "branding," which is dead boring and I apologize so I will try to make it quick. Some players will hear the name "Mass Effect 3" and think "Hey, I heard of those games on Attack of the Show. Aren't they the games with the hot girl in the white catsuit with the great butt?" Then they go to the store. If there's not a brunette with a great butt, they may not buy the game. Branding! (Bear in mind I'm making a point for my second to least favorite character's return. The sacrifices I make for you, the forum public.)

So you advocate to put every single NPC, a reaper, one of every other alien species and the Liara/FShep sex scene on the cover of the box so that people realize it is a ME game ?
The title and the text on the back of the cover should be enough that most people who are smart enough to open it and insert the disk into a pc/console recognize it as ME3.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I can't imagine how you can read my post and think I advocate putting all previous squad members in the game or having all of them available at the start. I merely said you could have two available at the start without creating any difficulty understanding what is going on. In fact, if you read the explanation I linked, I think the ideal method would be to start with one old squaddie if you're new to the game (one of your potential LIs, depending on your gender), and to start with 3 or 4 if you've played ME2 and the four selected happend to have survived.

We will just have to agree to disagree about rigging. Having a new character move and have the same exact stances, mannerisms and animations as a previous one seems odd to me, but to each his own. I may also be using the wrong vocabulary, as I said previously, I'm not an artist.

As for the writing, I have never advocated using only old squad mates, nor did I indicate that creating new ones isn't fun - it's just more work to make sure they are developed and all their relevant backstory is revealed. Look at Garrus: we know so much more about him because we've been with him for so long, and yet he was one of the more popular characters in ME2, even for those who hadn't played the first game! This was achieved very neatly, despite the fact that it's clear Shep recognizes him from a previous game. If you're a completely new player, you're intrigued... what past do they share together? The past isn't explicitly revealed over the course of ME1, but that adds to Garrus's interest and mystery, and may cause the players to read up on him elsewhere, or even play the original. All a new ME2 player knows about Garrus is that he's an awesome sniper with a history in law enforcement, and then the specific story of Archangel. Same thing with Tali, all you know about her history from ME1 is that she is an old friend. If Tali and Garrus make sense in the context of ME2, I don't know why you couldn't do the same thing in ME3.

I wasn't trying to imply that creating new characters isn't fun, just that it's challenging and can be time-consuming. I'll explain a bit more using some writing techique thingummies. If you take a course on fiction or game writing, one of the first things you'll learn is to write up an extensive backstory for your character: what was their childhood like, what was their training, what is their favorite food, who was their first kiss, who do they hate more than anyone in the world, what is their goal in life, what dreams did they have that they've given up on? You don't need to put this in your story, in fact most of it should never come up, but it's a tool you use internally to tell you how a character would react in different situations. It also gives them weight and depth on the page. I don't know why it works, but most of the professional writers I've met use a similar technique.

With Garrus we know a lot of this stuff already. Some of it was already revealed in ME1 and doesn't need to be explicitly restated in ME2 (for instance, a ME2 player wouldn't know about Garrus's father, or that he was once a spectre candidate, or most of the details of how he tracked Saren). Yet the knowledge of those things informs the character. It also limits what you can do with him, which may make it less satisfying to write for him if he isn't your creation.

With Torbor Morgram, your new Volus crewmate (who I completely made up), the writer has to come up with all this stuff from scratch. This is an enjoyable challenge (I get a big rush from creating new characters), but it takes a lot longer and is harder work. I wasn't refuting the idea that new characters are fun to do, just explaining why that process can take longer, when you suggested it would be quicker. If you don't put a lot of work into it, you may end up with a character most players think is boring.

I'd usually prefer to do a bit of both - write some new characters and bring some old ones back. Still, If there are interviews where the bioware writers say they would rather create an entirely new cast of characters for every game, I'd like to read it. It would probably give me a really cool insight into a different kind of writing. Do you remember where you read that?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 28 mars 2011 - 03:46 .

[lovgreno]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

With Torbor Morgram, your new Volus crewmate (who I completely made up), the writer has to come up with all this stuff from scratch. This is an enjoyable challenge (I get a big rush from creating new characters), but it takes a lot longer and is harder work. I wasn't refuting the idea that new characters aren't fun to do, just that the process can take longer, which was what you were arguing. Otherwise you may end up with a character most players think is boring.

Also old squadmates like Garrus, Wrex and Tali are a proven success (= profit). By continuing their stories you have a winning concept already that you just have to write some more story for. Torbor Morgram (who I very much want in my team in ME3) on the other hand could just as well be a fail when it comes to consumer popularity.

[AdmiralCheez]

Phaedon wrote...

Haha, this is the reason why I love all of your posts.

Thanks, man.  Nothing brightens my day more than a boost to my ego! 8D

[AGogley]

1.) It's way more difficult to bring back old squadmates than it is to write in new ones.  Do you really think it's more diffucult to write in another Krogan? or Turian?  Or Asari?  If you start new you have limited dialog options, limited storylines, and a predictable outcome.  If you bring back a returning character you either have to deal with the past by (A) greatly limiting discussion about the past or ( plan, write, and cut the dialogue for a number of different varaibles.  (A) would be highly disappointing to people who import and would not make for very character development for new players.

2.) Has Bioware, in any RPG they've being involved with, ever brought back more than a very small number of returning cast?  I'd say that ME2 had the largest contingent of returning cast that I've ever seen in a sequel.

3.) The game has to be good not just for fans of ME1 and ME2 but for new players to ME3. 

[Phaedon]

AGogley wrote...

1.) It's way more difficult to bring back old squadmates than it is to write in new ones.  Do you really think it's more diffucult to write in another Krogan? or Turian?  Or Asari?  If you start new you have limited dialog options, limited storylines, and a predictable outcome.  If you bring back a returning character you either have to deal with the past by (A) greatly limiting discussion about the past or ( plan, write, and cut the dialogue for a number of different varaibles.  (A) would be highly disappointing to people who import and would not make for very character development for new players.

Yes, yes it is. In fact, a variable concerning a surviving squaddie would be less complex than that of the dead/alive council, as being turned to false in the case of the council requires extra content, unlike the squadmates.

Modifié par Phaedon, 28 mars 2011 - 04:06 .

[AGogley]

lovgreno wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

With Torbor Morgram, your new Volus crewmate (who I completely made up), the writer has to come up with all this stuff from scratch. This is an enjoyable challenge (I get a big rush from creating new characters), but it takes a lot longer and is harder work. I wasn't refuting the idea that new characters aren't fun to do, just that the process can take longer, which was what you were arguing. Otherwise you may end up with a character most players think is boring.

Also old squadmates like Garrus, Wrex and Tali are a proven success (= profit). By continuing their stories you have a winning concept already that you just have to write some more story for. Torbor Morgram (who I very much want in my team in ME3) on the other hand could just as well be a fail when it comes to consumer popularity.

First, Wrex is basically a cameo appearance who doesn't affect the game in any way.  Same with Liara and Ashley (or Kaiden) .  The returning squadmates are Tali and Garrus.  That's two, which I think is reasonable for fans to expect.

[AGogley]

Phaedon wrote...

AGogley wrote...

1.) It's way more difficult to bring back old squadmates than it is to write in new ones.  Do you really think it's more diffucult to write in another Krogan? or Turian?  Or Asari?  If you start new you have limited dialog options, limited storylines, and a predictable outcome.  If you bring back a returning character you either have to deal with the past by (A) greatly limiting discussion about the past or ( plan, write, and cut the dialogue for a number of different varaibles.  (A) would be highly disappointing to people who import and would not make for very character development for new players.

Yes, yes it is. In fact, a variable concerning a surviving squaddie would be less complex than that of the dead/alive council, as being turned to false in the case of the council requires extra content, unlike the squadmates.

Are you kidding me?  I mean really?  The council plays almost no role in ME2 and even in the role they do play, the outcome is pretty much the same with a new council or old council.  A dead/alive council merely means replacement council and a few dialog lines with a couple NPCs here and there about their fate.  The council in ME2 plays almost zero role in ME2.

With regards to a squadmate, you have to deal with the loss of a squadmate (which means you either have to build in a replacement or you have to make their survival a default option (for new players who don't import). If they survive, you have to dialog about their past and all the variable decisions that were made in the past.  So then the writers have to craft dialog sequences for all the possible outcomes related to each individual returning squadmate.  That's exponentially more complicated.

[Phaedon]

AGogley wrote...
Are you kidding me?  I mean really?  The council plays almost no role in ME2 and even in the role they do play, the outcome is pretty much the same with a new council or old council.  A dead/alive council merely means replacement council and a few dialog lines with a couple NPCs here and there about their fate.  The council in ME2 plays almost zero role in ME2.

Seriously? Having the entire Citadel whining is the same? Nice, I guess.

With regards to a squadmate, you have to deal with the loss of a squadmate (which means you either have to build in a replacement or you have to make their survival a default option (for new players who don't import). If they survive, you have to dialog about their past and all the variable decisions that were made in the past.  So then the writers have to craft dialog sequences for all the possible outcomes related to each individual returning squadmate.  That's exponentially more complicated.

Problem is, these are all the 'extremely complicated' variables:

Garrus Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Sidonis Alive Yes/No
Grunt Alive Yes/No
Jack Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Base destroyed Yes/No
Random Guy killed Yes/No
Jacob Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Father Abandoned Yes/No (unecessary)
Legion Alive Yes/No
Heretics brainwashed Yes/No
Miranda Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Talked to sister Yes/No
Mordin Alive Yes/No
Files kept Yes/No
Samara Alive Yes/No
LM Yes/No
Tali Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Exiled Yes/No
Evidence Given Yes/No
Legion conflict taken side Yes/No
Tali's side taken Yes/No
Thane Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
LM Done Yes/No

With only Alive and LI flags being absolutely necessary. 

It's really as simple as that;
You have a surviving squaddie, cool, go on. You don't have one? Oh well, I guess that squaddie will be unavailable, and that you'll be missing content.

But we all know that never happenned in ME2,
Right Legion?

Yeah, Grunt, you agree too.

Modifié par Phaedon, 28 mars 2011 - 04:24 .

[lovgreno]

AGogley wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

With Torbor Morgram, your new Volus crewmate (who I completely made up), the writer has to come up with all this stuff from scratch. This is an enjoyable challenge (I get a big rush from creating new characters), but it takes a lot longer and is harder work. I wasn't refuting the idea that new characters aren't fun to do, just that the process can take longer, which was what you were arguing. Otherwise you may end up with a character most players think is boring.

Also old squadmates like Garrus, Wrex and Tali are a proven success (= profit). By continuing their stories you have a winning concept already that you just have to write some more story for. Torbor Morgram (who I very much want in my team in ME3) on the other hand could just as well be a fail when it comes to consumer popularity.

First, Wrex is basically a cameo appearance who doesn't affect the game in any way.  Same with Liara and Ashley (or Kaiden) .  The returning squadmates are Tali and Garrus.  That's two, which I think is reasonable for fans to expect.

Reasonable if you think it can not be done better than in ME2. I belive BioWare are setting their goals for ME3 to be better than ME2. Therefore I think it's reasonable for fans to expect that the developers will make a effort to try to include as many old squadmates as possible. If that means no one or up to everyone remains to be seen.

[lovgreno]

AGogley wrote...
3.) The game has to be good not just for fans of ME1 and ME2 but for new players to ME3. 

Many of the old squadmates have proven to be popular among buyers before. Therefore it's probable to assume they can be popular again with new players. New characters on the other hand are a potential failiure with fans. Sure, they may become as popular as old ones but we won't know that untill a year or so after ME3 has hit the shelves. This means that it's a safer gamble to include old proven popular characters than making new untested ones.

[AGogley]

Phaedon wrote...

AGogley wrote...
Are you kidding me?  I mean really?  The council plays almost no role in ME2 and even in the role they do play, the outcome is pretty much the same with a new council or old council.  A dead/alive council merely means replacement council and a few dialog lines with a couple NPCs here and there about their fate.  The council in ME2 plays almost zero role in ME2.

Seriously? Having the entire Citadel whining is the same? Nice, I guess.

With regards to a squadmate, you have to deal with the loss of a squadmate (which means you either have to build in a replacement or you have to make their survival a default option (for new players who don't import). If they survive, you have to dialog about their past and all the variable decisions that were made in the past.  So then the writers have to craft dialog sequences for all the possible outcomes related to each individual returning squadmate.  That's exponentially more complicated.

Problem is, these are all the 'extremely complicated' variables:

Garrus Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Sidonis Alive Yes/No
Grunt Alive Yes/No
Jack Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Base destroyed Yes/No
Random Guy killed Yes/No
Jacob Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Father Abandoned Yes/No (unecessary)
Legion Alive Yes/No
Heretics brainwashed Yes/No
Miranda Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Talked to sister Yes/No
Mordin Alive Yes/No
Files kept Yes/No
Samara Alive Yes/No
LM Yes/No
Tali Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
Exiled Yes/No
Evidence Given Yes/No
Legion conflict taken side Yes/No
Tali's side taken Yes/No
Thane Alive Yes/No
LI Yes/No
LM Done Yes/No

With only Alive and LI flags being absolutely necessary. 

It's really as simple as that;
You have a surviving squaddie, cool, go on. You don't have one? Oh well, I guess that squaddie will be unavailable, and that you'll be missing content.

But we all know that never happenned in ME2,
Right Legion?

Yeah, Grunt, you agree too.

Yes, the council wasn't important to any character development or to the plot in any way, shape, or form.  In fact, in one situation the council refuses to meet with you.  Heck of a lot easier to write in.  A couple lines here and there for a bunch of NPCs?  A line or two from each of the squadmates?  A lot easier.  But the list you wrote is already pretty long and misses all the other variables from the loyalty missions.  Not to mention, you'd have to explain why Thane lives, why Samara stays,...heck why any of them stay.   And that is very complex because varaibles compound on variables which makes for an exponential rise in outcomes.

[AGogley]

lovgreno wrote...

AGogley wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

With Torbor Morgram, your new Volus crewmate (who I completely made up), the writer has to come up with all this stuff from scratch. This is an enjoyable challenge (I get a big rush from creating new characters), but it takes a lot longer and is harder work. I wasn't refuting the idea that new characters aren't fun to do, just that the process can take longer, which was what you were arguing. Otherwise you may end up with a character most players think is boring.

Also old squadmates like Garrus, Wrex and Tali are a proven success (= profit). By continuing their stories you have a winning concept already that you just have to write some more story for. Torbor Morgram (who I very much want in my team in ME3) on the other hand could just as well be a fail when it comes to consumer popularity.

First, Wrex is basically a cameo appearance who doesn't affect the game in any way.  Same with Liara and Ashley (or Kaiden) .  The returning squadmates are Tali and Garrus.  That's two, which I think is reasonable for fans to expect.

Reasonable if you think it can not be done better than in ME2. I belive BioWare are setting their goals for ME3 to be better than ME2. Therefore I think it's reasonable for fans to expect that the developers will make a effort to try to include as many old squadmates as possible. If that means no one or up to everyone remains to be seen.

i don't think that is necessarily reasonable.  But since they don't have to design the codex, the planets, the galaxy, the citadel, etc. again, that might leave more time for the plot aspects.

[AGogley]

lovgreno wrote...

AGogley wrote...
3.) The game has to be good not just for fans of ME1 and ME2 but for new players to ME3. 

Many of the old squadmates have proven to be popular among buyers before. Therefore it's probable to assume they can be popular again with new players. New characters on the other hand are a potential failiure with fans. Sure, they may become as popular as old ones but we won't know that untill a year or so after ME3 has hit the shelves. This means that it's a safer gamble to include old proven popular characters than making new untested ones.

right.  That's why they brought back so many of the ME1 crew, right?  All two of them?  NONE of the LIs came back as anything more than cameos who basically say the same lines regardless of which dialog option you choose.  Tell me the LIs weren't popular.

[Commander_Adept]

So... Did Elite Midget ever actually respond to CulturalGeekGirl?

[AGogley]

Another general comment. People keep mentioned Legion as an example of missing content. Except that the decision is made about Legion in the game not as a result of an import. In ME2 the import always added content (for example, becoming a spectre again is only possible with a paragon import).

[AquamanOS]

But that's assuming the default import is the bad one. They could make it so that by default you got everyone, Legion and Grunt included and everyone lived. Or that most people survived and the ones that died vary on you Shepard's gender.

So everything can be accessed in some way party member wise, even by a new player.

[AGogley]

There isn't a "default import." There is an import and then there is "start a new game." The game developers would have to plan for both contingencies. So if you can have all your returning squadmates you'd have to plan for the death of each one of them individually as well as a default starting scenario. They'll have to do something for each of the squadmates regardless but it becomes increasingly complex if you have an option to include them as part of the crew. That is, if you desire them to have meaningful dialog.