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Some Variables that Haunt the Fallen


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#326
CroGamer002

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Phaedon wrote...

Here you go, in all of their...glory(?), the different spreadsheets that could be made concerning squaddie outcomes, no, not even variables, variables would be a lot less. Also include speculated consequences and actions.

Desperate: The less possible amount of outcomes, only survivor statuses. Can be implemented very nicely with clever design.
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Basic:  A normal amount of outcomes, with survivor statuses and LI statuses in order to initiate romances in a higher level if romanced in ME2.
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Advanced: A great state in which survivor and LI statuses, as well as most LM choices are included.
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Insane: All of the possible choices in ME2 concerning squadmates, only for mentally ill game designers, still possible with a regular amount of work, especially if you consider that C.Hudson has confirmed that Bioware will go crazy with variables and consequences in ME3.
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I would gladly have a basic one in ME3, even better an advanced one.




+1

Modifié par Mesina2, 28 mars 2011 - 07:32 .


#327
AGogley

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

AGogley wrote...

I'm sure Bioware appreciates how "easy" it must all seem to people.  As if they weren't working nights and weekends to get a game out the door as it is.

Frustrating and time consuming does not equal impossible.  Writing for characters you are well-acquainted with is a snap (for me, anyway, but I'm an amateur).  There's just a lot of it and you might skip an outcome if you're not careful.

But honestly, WHY do we need to hear about their damn loyalty missions again IF WE ALREADY KNOW HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT IT FROM PLAYING ME2?  Sure, Tali might comment on how it may be difficult to get the Admiralty Board to side with you since she's technically exiled, or Garrus might comment on your hypocrisy if you kill someone to satisfy your need for revenge if you convinced him to let Sidonis go, but really these are conflicts that have been dealt with already and don't need to be dragged out and beaten.  I want to hear about what's going on with my crew now, not what about I did last year.  Why can't Tali tell me how she's worried about the flotilla being a sitting duck for a Reaper attack?  Why can't Garrus lend his advice as a trusted friend in regards to the current mission?

Genophage and geth?  Yeah, that's a bigger deal, but Mordin and Legion don't even have to be alive for us to see the ramifications of those decisions.



I don't disagree on all your points.  Your example of Garrus is a good one.  They reintroduce him in ME2 with virtually no reference to ME1.  Of course, he can't die in ME1 so that makes it a bit more difficult for ME3.  Grunt has no backstory and would be easy to carryover with minimal planning.  But how about Samara or Thane or Tali?  Are you going to be happy with just an offhand comment from Samara about staying at your side?  Wouldn't you want some explanation as to why her oath was so important in ME2 and now she's remained with you for over a year?  Thane is supposed to die in just a few months.  What about an explanation about that?  You willing to settle for a couple comments about how he changed his mind and somebody invented a cure?  Tali's being exiled is HUGE.  The entire geth/quarian conflict is a fairly large subplot!

You just aren't going to satisfy fans (especially the rabid Tali romance people) with surface deep conversations about past decisions.

Not to mention, for every ME2 crew member that you want back that crew member could have died.  So if you want six crew members, then you want it possible that an import could go without half the squadmates?

#328
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Why is non-li added?

Should it not just say:

- Dead
- LI
- Alive
??

#329
Commander_Adept

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Lizardviking wrote...

Why is non-li added?

Should it not just say:

- Dead
- LI
- Alive
??


I think non-LI should only count for Tali with MaleShep, since she's apparently in love with him regardless

#330
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Commander_Adept wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Why is non-li added?

Should it not just say:

- Dead
- LI
- Alive
??


I think non-LI should only count for Tali with MaleShep, since she's apparently in love with him regardless


Nah. Hopefully she will be over her crush in ME3.

#331
AGogley

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You can't just plot the outcomes. You also have to plot the dialog choices. What about Morinth? What about Ashley/Kaiden? What about Liara?

You didn't plot out what happens if all your techs die out or all you biotics are dead, etc. Do you have a replacement or do you simply have no biotic or tech squadmates?

#332
Phaedon

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Lizardviking wrote...

Why is non-li added?

Should it not just say:

- Dead
- LI
- Alive
??

These are not variables, these are states that your squaddies can be in.

Otherwise, it would have been:
Alive Yes/No flag
LI Yes/No flag

#333
Phaedon

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AGogley wrote...

You can't just plot the outcomes. You also have to plot the dialog choices.  

Did I not just do that?

What about Morinth?

Okay. Add her as another squaddie. Alive, Dead, no other states.
Morinth romance means death which is non-canon.

What about Ashley/Kaiden? What about Liara?

Either ME1 or DLC choices.

You didn't plot out what happens if all your techs die out or all you biotics are dead, etc. Do you have a replacement or do you simply have no biotic or tech squadmates?

No replacements, you just lose content. Replacements would be ridiculous.

Modifié par Phaedon, 28 mars 2011 - 07:47 .


#334
CulturalGeekGirl

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I think everyone assumes there will be at least a few new squadmates. If the few new ones cover everything required (biotics, tech, soldiering), in some format or combination, then it doesn't matter who you're missing. You might not have the most powerful biotic, but you'll have a biotic I'm sure. Or you might not have the exact hybrid you want, but you'll have a pureclass of each class.

#335
dewayne31

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well if what devs is true bout the me2 squad. i'm sitting pretty only person i'm missing is jack...

#336
AGogley

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Phaedon wrote...

AGogley wrote...

You can't just plot the outcomes. You also have to plot the dialog choices.  

Did I not just do that?


What about Morinth?

Okay. Add her as another squaddie. Alive, Dead, no other states.
Morinth romance means death which is non-canon.


What about Ashley/Kaiden? What about Liara?

Either ME1 or DLC choices.


You didn't plot out what happens if all your techs die out or all you biotics are dead, etc. Do you have a replacement or do you simply have no biotic or tech squadmates?

No replacements, you just lose content. Replacements would be ridiculous.



LOL.  Now add it to your chart..

#337
AGogley

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I think everyone assumes there will be at least a few new squadmates. If the few new ones cover everything required (biotics, tech, soldiering), in some format or combination, then it doesn't matter who you're missing. You might not have the most powerful biotic, but you'll have a biotic I'm sure. Or you might not have the exact hybrid you want, but you'll have a pureclass of each class.



There is an entire thread about not wanting any new squadmates. 

#338
Elite Midget

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Almostfaceman wrote...

How does another fan get screwed if they CHOOSE to have Garrus killed off?  It's easy, if you don't want squaddies to return - kill them off in ME2.


You didn't read the other persons post did you? THey said of the 3 that should return it simple 'must' have Garrus and Tali yet he offered no reason other than because it was something 'he' wanted to happen. Quite frankly there are more characters than just Tali and Garrus and in ME2 Miranda and Morin far outclass them in importance.

No it's even easier.

You don't want a cameo than kill them off and enjoy your standalone ME3 experience without the extra fanservice.

#339
CulturalGeekGirl

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AGogley wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I think everyone assumes there will be at least a few new squadmates. If the few new ones cover everything required (biotics, tech, soldiering), in some format or combination, then it doesn't matter who you're missing. You might not have the most powerful biotic, but you'll have a biotic I'm sure. Or you might not have the exact hybrid you want, but you'll have a pureclass of each class.



There is an entire thread about not wanting any new squadmates. 


True, but, despite what they may want, I'd be surprised to see anyone who legitimately believed it would be so.

Then again, I'm surprised to see people who legitimately believe there will be no ME2 squadmates in ME3.

Happy Birthday? 

#340
Elite Midget

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You guys never let up do you? I still have to reply to CG and practically another full page of posts. Though I guess it's fine if you debate amoungst yourself because it'll take me awhile to get to the rest.

PS: I'm surprised people expect certian killables to get special treatment. Namely Tali/Garrus fans. If anyone had to get special treatment it shouldn't be them since they were practically irrelevant to ME2 and hve no plot armor compared to hard to kill Miranda,

Modifié par Elite Midget, 28 mars 2011 - 08:26 .


#341
AGogley

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I think only Elite may think there will be zero returning squadmates. I personally think Tali will be an option, partly because of the cultlike fascination with her. Miranda seems like a logical return. Ashley/Kaiden as a possible. I would expect to see a lot of cameos or dialog about what happened to everyone. So I guess I would be in the camp of 3-4 from ME1/2

#342
Elite Midget

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You know what they say about cults... You have to crush them eventually less they infect the rest of the community.

Tali is a decent characters but the Talimancers tend to ruin things with their blind worship.

#343
Quole

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Elite Midget wrote...

You know what they say about cults... You have to crush them eventually less they infect the rest of the community.

Tali is a decent characters but the Talimancers tend to ruin things with their blind worship.

Nice. nothing like a little insult to help you get taken more seriously. O WAIT.

Modifié par Quole, 28 mars 2011 - 08:33 .


#344
AGogley

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Elite Midget wrote...

You know what they say about cults... You have to crush them eventually less they infect the rest of the community.

Tali is a decent characters but the Talimancers tend to ruin things with their blind worship.


I didn't know "they" said that.  There is also the group that absolutely adore Thane too...and I'm on the side that thinks it makes zero sense to bring him back.  So maybe Tali is a goner.  It's just that Tali and Garrus have now survived two MEs (unless you killed them, LOL).

#345
Almostfaceman

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Elite Midget wrote...

You know what they say about cults... You have to crush them eventually less they infect the rest of the community.

Tali is a decent characters but the Talimancers tend to ruin things with their blind worship.


Cults?

Ok, let me get this straight.  Mass Effect has been called the "Star Wars" of video games.   People who are attached to Garrus and Tali are attached for the same reasons they got attached to, say, Han Solo. The people that wanted Han Solo, Chewbacca, Luke Skywalker, C-3P0, R2D2, and any of their other favorite characters to come back in Return of the Jedi were...

cult members?

.............

This is a dicussion board.  Nobody crushes anything.  It's a place for people to exhange ideas.  Are you expecting to crush everyone who doesn't agree with you or something?  Do you imagine yourself taking your combat boot and grinding my opinion under your heel or something? Good luck with that.

#346
AGogley

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Cults?

Ok, let me get this straight.  Mass Effect has been called the "Star Wars" of video games.   People who are attached to Garrus and Tali are attached for the same reasons they got attached to, say, Han Solo. The people that wanted Han Solo, Chewbacca, Luke Skywalker, C-3P0, R2D2, and any of their other favorite characters to come back in Return of the Jedi were...

cult members?


I don't know, I was two at the time of the first movie's release.  Even though I wasn't there, I don't recall hearing any stories about internet forums clogged with obsessive romantic thoughts of Han Solo by both sexes.

Modifié par AGogley, 28 mars 2011 - 08:55 .


#347
Almostfaceman

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AGogley wrote...

Cults?

Ok, let me get this straight.  Mass Effect has been called the "Star Wars" of video games.   People who are attached to Garrus and Tali are attached for the same reasons they got attached to, say, Han Solo. The people that wanted Han Solo, Chewbacca, Luke Skywalker, C-3P0, R2D2, and any of their other favorite characters to come back in Return of the Jedi were...

cult members?


I don't know, I was two at the time of the first movie's release.  Even though I wasn't there, I don't recall hearing any stories about internet forums clogged with obsessive romantic thoughts of Han Solo by both sexes.


That may be because the internet didn't exist at that time.  Since you were 2, and I was older, you may not understand how popular all these characters were at the time.  And that's the point.  The characters are popular and people want to see them again.  It's going off the deep end to call them a "cult".  But that often happens in a debate - you start to see insulting terms for groups of people that don't agree with one another.  That way you get to dismiss their point of view and make yours look more rational or right or important.

Calling people who like Tali, Garrus, or any other character in Mass Effect a "cult" is silly.

#348
CulturalGeekGirl

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AGogley wrote...

I think only Elite may think there will be zero returning squadmates. I personally think Tali will be an option, partly because of the cultlike fascination with her. Miranda seems like a logical return. Ashley/Kaiden as a possible. I would expect to see a lot of cameos or dialog about what happened to everyone. So I guess I would be in the camp of 3-4 from ME1/2


We only slightly disagree then, since I'm in the camp of 4-6 from ME2 and your VS. And honestly, I'd be happy if we got just Garrus, Tali, Grunt, and Legion back, with Mordin as a non-playable Tech guy in your lab. But if we have any recurring characters I think they'll give us Miranda, too.

I do have reasons for these, not just based on preference:

Miranda - far and away the most popular MaleShep LI in surveys I've seen.

Garrus - has been reported as a very popular character in stats released by Bioware, is the most chosen FemShep LI according to several surveys I've seen. Not hard evidence, but consistent.

Tali - second most popular MaleShep LI, has great plot hooks/plot continuity potential, and is popular among female fans. (It would be funny if they brought Tali back and made her bi, as so many have requested, rather than bring back any of the other ME2 Femshep romance options... what with Thane having plot-related lifespan issues, and Jacob being fairly unpopular).

Legion - plothooks plothooks plothooks. He is made of plothooks! At the same time, he's one of the few characters where they could give us a chance to straight-up replace him, in files where he's dead or sold. LotSB implies that when being dissected by Cerberus, he might have escaped over the extranet, so he could just come back as "Legion 2." Plus each geth is all geth, only his mobile platform was different, etc etc. My head hurts.

Grunt - I feel like Grunt has unresolved plothooks too. And while I'd rather have Wrex back, I think switching in a THIRD Krogan would be awkward. This is the one I have the hardest time clearly explaining, but hey. Grunt! Sharks and Hemmingway!

Popularity isn't everything, sure, but the combination of popularity, love interest-ness, and plot relevance is something, and if I ran the Zoo that's how I'd prioritize character return.

#349
luakel

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

We only slightly disagree then, since I'm in the camp of 4-6 from ME2 and your VS. And honestly, I'd be happy if we got just Garrus, Tali, Grunt, and Legion back, with Mordin as a non-playable Tech guy in your lab. But if we have any recurring characters I think they'll give us Miranda, too.


Just thinking, maybe Miranda could be non-playable too? She's definitely one of the most likely to come back, both because of her popularity and because it's so hard to accidentally kill her off in the SM... but I could see her staying on the Normandy and handling all the more bureaucratic things while Shepard goes off and kills things. She is XO, after all. Kinda like a Pressly with more plot relevance, so she'd still be there to interact with.

Tali could even stay on the ship too, since she's needed to keep the Normandy running smoothly and bringing the Chief Engineer into a firefight isn't really a good idea when you think about it, even if she has a shotgun. So the "active" squaddies could be Garrus (not like he's doing really anything important on the ship :whistle:), Grunt, Legion, and VS, plus 2-4 new squaddies to fill out the other classes, with Miranda, Mordin, and Tali all back on the ship in support roles.

I guess it's all idle speculation, but that could help keep some characters in very relevant roles without having to provide replacements for them in the squad if they're dead. And maybe Mordin, Miranda, etc. could accompany Shepard on a unique mission or two once in the game as squadmates, with the mission being unaccessable without them. But they'd be alive for Default!Shep, so new players wouldn't miss anything, only those players who let squadmates die.

#350
AdmiralCheez

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AGogley wrote...

I don't disagree on all your points.  Your example of Garrus is a good one.  They reintroduce him in ME2 with virtually no reference to ME1.  Of course, he can't die in ME1 so that makes it a bit more difficult for ME3.  Grunt has no backstory and would be easy to carryover with minimal planning.  But how about Samara or Thane or Tali?  Are you going to be happy with just an offhand comment from Samara about staying at your side?  Wouldn't you want some explanation as to why her oath was so important in ME2 and now she's remained with you for over a year?  Thane is supposed to die in just a few months.  What about an explanation about that?  You willing to settle for a couple comments about how he changed his mind and somebody invented a cure?  Tali's being exiled is HUGE.  The entire geth/quarian conflict is a fairly large subplot!

These are all valid points, but several of these--Thane's illness and Samara's oath--are essential character traits that do not rely on whether or not you did their loyalty missions.  Perhaps Thane drops a few lines about having something to live for now and regretting the coming end if he's loyal/you romanced him, and perhaps Samara has less to say to you in general if you're a renegade.

As for Tali, what the quarians are up to will happen regardless of whether or not she's alive, but I can see her dialogue being quite different depending on what they're up to.  However, this would be reacting to the results of your decisions, not just reminding you of what you did.  Let there be action and real results, not just emails read out loud.

You just aren't going to satisfy fans (especially the rabid Tali romance people) with surface deep conversations about past decisions.

I'm not opposed to past decisions being referenced, but I just don't want them to be the focus of conversation.  I don't mind Maelon or Jacob's father being mentioned only once or twice because there's so much more to talk about.  Why can't Jacob open up a little more?  What else did Mordin do with the STG?  They have whole lifetimes behind them--what else were they up to?  What do they think of the things happening now?  Of course I want them to grow as characters, but their development should not revolve around what happened in ME2.  Flavored by it, of course, but this can be done with little tidbits here and there, like the references to Ilos, mining lasers, and elevators.  These brief wisps of dialogue are what make it seem truly real and nostalgic, NOT forced conversations.  Subtlety is what does it, and subtlely by nature doesn't take up much dev time or disk space.

EXAMPLE: While out a missioning, you hear over the news that a certain colony is attacked by pirates in the wake of the chaos surrounding the Reaper invasion.

Disloyal Miranda: *says nothing*
Loyal Miranda: Oh, God.  Oriana's family was... nevermind.  We need to focus.
Dead Miranda: *floats through space in crispy, radioactive chunks*

*Later, aboard Normandy*

Shepard: How are you doing, Miranda?

Disloyal Miranda: As well as one can during a full-scale galactic invasion, I suppose.
-Shepard (paragon): Miranda, you're a member of my crew.  I need my crew to be open with me.
-Shepard (neutral): Okay, so you don't feel like talking about it.  I get it.
-Shepard (renegade): Glad to see a full-scale galactic invasion does nothing to dampen that ice queen routine of yours.
--DM: I try not to make a spectacle of my personal feelings, Shepard.  Now I've got a lot to do; we'll chat another time.
---Shep: I'll let you work.

Loyal Miranda: To be honest, I'm worried about Oriana.  Her family was relocated to [colony] to keep her safe, but I apparently put her right in harm's way again.  I can't get through to any of my contacts, Shepard; what if she's dead?
-Shepard (paragon): She's as tough and resourceful as you, Miranda.  If anyone will make it through this, she will.
-Shepard (neutral): We're all going through hell, Miranda.  You're not alone in this.
-Shepard (renegade): Don't dwell on it.  You'll just make yourself miserable.  I need you to be at your best.
--LM: You're right.  I shouldn't worry--I...  I need to work.  Thank you, Shepard.
---Shep: I'll let you work.

Dead Miranda: *charred remains get sucked into a black hole*

Miranda had a total of five lines, and Shepard had eight.  That was minimal, but Oriana was referenced twice--once in passing and once in conversation.  Perhaps later you'll find out she's okay (if you let Miranda talk to Oriana after her LQ), but that again will be short.

Not to mention, for every ME2 crew member that you want back that crew member could have died.  So if you want six crew members, then you want it possible that an import could go without half the squadmates?

Imports that have half the crew dead are relatively rare and usually intentional, thus most people who go through ME3 with only half a squad would have chosen to do so.  And besides, you can get through ME1 with only five squadmates just fine (eight in ME2).  Garrus and Wrex in ME1 were optional.  In ME2, so were Grunt, Thane, Samara, Morinth, Tali, Legion, Kasumi, and Zaeed.  Granted, you had to pick up some of them to continue the game, but you get the idea.

As for people who start a new game with ME3, the "default" doesn't have to force them out of half a squad--most returning squadmates could be assumed to be alive, therefore leaving only one or two as an import bonus.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 28 mars 2011 - 09:48 .