1053 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

Elite Midget wrote...

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

*sigh*

Ever have a conversation that felt like you were talking to a particularly obnoxious brick wall?

Never mind, I'm outta here. I will be back to laugh when companions from ME2 appear in ME3.

You'll be waiting an eternity for a chance that will most likely not occure.

Though you're right about one thing. I sometimes get then feeling that I'm talking to many persons who carry the demeanor of an obnoxious brick wall that ignores facts and demand special treatment for their killable Squaddie.

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but that's how I feel too, when talking to you.  Pot meet Kettle.

[Elite Midget]

Perhaps but as I said if I'm not strict and to the point they'll never learn. Better to come off as a jerk just as long as the Facts are told through the waves of personal and baias Opinions over why their favorite killable Squaddie must get special treatment and return.

You know over all the Variables that clash directly with said Opinions that have no Facts to support their bias claims.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 26 mars 2011 - 12:34 .

[Lee337]

Elite Midget wrote...

It means just that when all of the Past Squaddies are either dead or like VS/Liara/Samara/Zaeed/Kasumi/Ect have moved on beyond just being Shepard's Guns. Thus it means a new player just starting will just miss out on Cameo's and maybe Temp Squaddie Missions.

Well that's just your opinion. I don't believe they will. That last scene in ME2 where Shep walks through the caro hold, everyone looks like they are gearing up, not packing thier bags. And they're all still with me when I do missions after the suicide mission.

[Elite Midget]

I directl you to some of the many Variables, aka facts, that Bioware had for each of the killable Squaddies in ME2 that're in my first post.

They aren't with you forever. Or have you forgotten that the Last Bridgeing DLC appears to be a Solo Experience, that there's a Time skip, and that none of them have to even be alive/loyal?

Modifié par Elite Midget, 26 mars 2011 - 12:36 .

[Lee337]

Elite Midget wrote...

I directl you to some of the many Variables, aka facts, that Bioware had for each of the killable Squaddies in ME2 that're in my first post.

They aren't with you forever. Or have you forgotten that the Last Bridgeing DLC is a Solo Experience, that there's a Time skip, and that none of them have to even be alive/loyal?

Alright  Mr Obnoxious Brick, for the last time, these variables you love so much are only fact in the sense they have said it and such, it is NOT fact that they will leave because of one of these variables, meaning anything based of these variables is opinion, not fact.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Just a note from the perspective of someone with a development background (Who does not and has never worked on a bioware product! I'm not claiming insider knowledge, just industry experience!): from what I know about, say, the NWN toolset (which is probably harder to use than whatever Bioware has as a toolset now), bringing back most (if not all) of the squadmates, while taking into account players' past decisions, would not be exceptionally difficult.

There's alt Garrus dialogue in the first mission, if you never recruited him in game 1. You can finish ME2 without recruiting or activating a ton different characters. Not forcing you to recruit someone plot relevant, like Legion, would be hugely more difficult than just coding something for next game along these lines:

If: Garrus is alive - then - give Garrus recruitment mission.
If: Garrus is dead - then - display greyed out recruitment dossier and message
If: Garrus is loyal - then - start with dialogue set X
If: Garrus is not loyal - then - start with dialogue set Y

Not hard, and Bioware has done it before: the Virmire Survivor scene on Horizon, Liara's alternate dialogue and romance option settings, in LotSB, etc. The fact that you can totally SELL Legion without knowing he's a recruitable character... (I've seen several threads elsewhere asking "where does Legion come from? Is he from the DLC? I never met him, and I beat the game!) Legion's storyline (and variables) is proof to me that Bioware is willing and able to code some quite complex variations. They're also willing to let you miss huge chunks of content based on your decisions. They're nice like that. 10% of players never let Grunt out of his tank. Bioware is not afraid of letting you  miss characters. They're not afraid of making you miss substantial chunks of a game because you decided to kill someone, or weren't able to save them.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 26 mars 2011 - 12:50 .

[Elite Midget]

Oh?

Unloyal Jack will stay?

Jack will Stay if you get in bed with TIM after ME2?

Jack will Stay if you accept her One Night Stand?

Jack will Stay if she's dead?

Jack will stay if her Neural Decay gets worse by ME3?

Jack will stay if you hit it than quit it thus doing what she hates which is playing with her emotions?

OH WAIT A MINUTE RIGHT THERE!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Elite Midget wrote...

Oh?

Unloyal Jack will stay?

Jack will Stay if you get in bed with TIM after ME2?

Jack will Stay if you accept her One Night Stand?

Jack will Stay if she's dead?

Jack will stay if her Neural Decay gets worse by ME3?

Jack will stay if you hit it than quit it thus doing what she hates which is playing with her emotions?

OH WAIT A MINUTE RIGHT THERE!

Nope, any of those things happen and you get a greyed out "Jack" entry on your list, and a dossier that either says "DECEASED" or "LOCATION UNKNOWN" 

Same as if you don't recruit Legion and sell him instead: his character select is just unavailable for the rest of the game.

[Elite Midget]

So, you're saying you're okay with them denying huge swaths of content to appease those that got the perfect save?

Even than, no matter what you do..

Thane Dies.
Samara Leaves.
Zaeed Leaves.
Kasumi Leaves.
Grunt Leaves.
Morinth Leaves.

And that's before many of the variables that would force them to leave anyway.

Finally, I will say it again.

All Dead Squaddies are created Equal in Mass Effect 2. None should receive, nor should any be demanded to have, special treatment. Especially with the many Variables that all are plagued with.

[AquamanOS]

Elite take your negativity elsewhere. Not everyone here falls in the EA has corrupted Bioware it will never be the same again, grumble grumble COD crowd grumble grumble Hardcore grumble grumble Casuals.

Some of us have hope that ME3 will be great. Not ME2.5.

[Almostfaceman]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Just a note from the perspective of someone with a development background (Who does not and has never worked on a bioware product! I'm not claiming insider knowledge, just industry experience!): from what I know about, say, the NWN toolset (which is probably harder to use than whatever Bioware has as a toolset now), bringing back most (if not all) of the squadmates, while taking into account players' past decisions, would not be exceptionally difficult.

There's alt Garrus dialogue in the first mission, if you never recruited him in game 1. You can finish ME2 without recruiting or activating a ton different characters. Not forcing you to recruit someone plot relevant, like Legion, would be hugely more difficult than just coding something for next game along these lines:

If: Garrus is alive - then - give Garrus recruitment mission.
If: Garrus is dead - then - display greyed out recruitment dossier and message
If: Garrus is loyal - then - start with dialogue set X
If: Garrus is not loyal - then - start with dialogue set Y

Not hard, and Bioware has done it before: the Virmire Survivor scene on Horizon, Liara's alternate dialogue and romance option settings, in LotSB, etc. The fact that you can totally SELL Legion without knowing he's a recruitable character... (I've seen several threads elsewhere asking "where does Legion come from? Is he from the DLC? I never met him, and I beat the game!) Legion's storyline (and variables) is proof to me that Bioware is willing and able to code some quite complex variations. They're also willing to let you miss huge chunks of content based on your decisions. They're nice like that. 10% of players never let Grunt out of his tank. Bioware is not afraid of letting you  miss characters. They're not afraid of making you miss substantial chunks of a game because you decided to kill someone, or weren't able to save them.

Damn you're battin' a thousand today.

[Elite Midget]

Why did you post in my thread Aqua? If you don't like my supposed negativity and the facts than you aren't forced to post let alone read anything. So here's some advice.

If you aren't going to contribute than stay out but if you're willing to than you may stay just like the others that, I may disagree with, may stay because they are actually contributeing.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 26 mars 2011 - 01:01 .

[Almostfaceman]

Elite Midget wrote...

Why did you post in my thread Aqua? If you don't like my supposed negativity and the facts than you aren't forced to post let alone read anything. So here's some advice.

If you aren't going to contribute than stay out but if you're willing to than you may stay just like the others that, I may disagree with, may stay because they are actually contributeing.

This is a public board, you can't tell anyone to do anything. 

[Elite Midget]

I can tell him to stay out of my Topic if he wants to keep posting Off Topic Comments. Which I'm fairly sure isn't allowed.

Besides, it's a matter of respect for themselves and others. If you are so petty as to troll Topics by posting irrelevant off-topic materials than you have no respect for yourself and others. Thus you have no business posting insaid Topic.

Also, don't encourage those with trollish desires and intentions. I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it if you made a Topic and than a random person comes in, posts something completely off topic, than tells you to leave the forums.

Of course I wouldn't expect you to understand since troll attempts here are against me and not what you believe.

[Almostfaceman]

Elite Midget wrote...

So, you're saying you're okay with them denying huge swaths of content to appease those that got the perfect save?

Even than, no matter what you do..

Thane Dies.

That's not necessarily true.  It's a fact that there is dialogue that eludes to the hanar working on a cure for Thane.  There is also dialogue that if you become friends with Thane, his "gun is yours."  If Bioware so desires, they can produce the cure, and they've already produced Thane saying he'll stick around if you need him.  These are facts in the dialogue, leaving the door open for Bioware to make decisions for ME3.

Samara Leaves.

There is specific dialogue (it's actually the last dialogue) if you're Paragon and friends with her, she says she'll work with you again if you ask her to.  Again, Bioware is leaving the door open for Samara to come back.  The dialogue is an indisputable fact.

Zaeed Leaves.

Who cares?

Kasumi Leaves.

Again who cares?

Grunt Leaves

The last dialogue with Grunt if your friends with him is that he's perfectly content and ready to kick Reaper arse.  He doesn't have to go anywhere.  Bioware leaves that plot point open as well.

Morinth Leaves.

I know nothing about Morinth, you may be right.  But that's speculation.

And that's before many of the variables that would force them to leave anyway.

Finally, I will say it again.

All Dead Squaddies are created Equal in Mass Effect 2. None should receive, nor should any be demanded to have, special treatment. Especially with the many Variables that all are plagued with.

This is directly contradicted by Marc Walters, who says:

And really, what you kinda have to do is, you have to pick your battles, cause, there’s a lot of, you know, smaller plots and smaller characters, and you would have treated them in different ways because the choices are a big thing that we push in our game...
...So sometimes, we can reference that and do it in the next game, we did a lot in Mass Effect 2, with some of the lighter characters, but you obviously can’t have everyone, so, a lot of times we rely on our own understanding of the game, and what we think that is important, what are the things we are looking for...
...But, we use our fans a lot, our community. We know by the polls –there are sometimes polls on the website-, we know who the popular characters are, who people want to see come back, and so sometimes, you’ll think,...
...‘Wow, I wrote that as a minor character for fun, but people are really interested about knowing more about themselves, so can we bring them back?', and if they are alive, well we do...

So your concept of Equal pretty much goes out the window, according to a guy who's making the game.  They're taking into consideration what they can realistically do, where the story is heading, and what the fans want.

[Elite Midget]

That's oif Bioware desires to retcon out Thane incurable illness that he refuses medical treatment. Though I would bet Thane Fans wouldn't mind if Thane does exactly the opposite of what he said and thus be retconned into a new character just so he might stay.

So you want to discriminate against Renegade players? Besides, Samara's code compells her to bring Justice to all she can. Thus she has no reason to stay around doing nothing dureing the Time Skip while she has every reason to follow her code.

Zaeed Fans care.

Kasumi Fans care.

Really, your who cares reasoning is bias, lame, and just messed up. You arrogantly carry the belief that only certian popular characters should return and the one you don't like? Who cares is your awnser, Pathetic.

You didn't read that E-Mail did you? You know about the Shaman of the Clan that Grunt, a Warlike Individual, is a part of? Oh no,of course you didn't! No, you're perfectly fine retconning out Grunt's personality and have him act the docile pet under Shepard and not act like a Krogan dureing the Time Skip.

Morinth tells you that this isn't her problem and after the job was done she would leave. There's simply 0 reason she would stay dureing the Time Skip without retconning her character.

You're implying that some of the Squaddies are the 'light characters' and not just the NPCs you run into dureing gameplay? You know, such as Aria being a lighter character compared to Thane who joins you? Whatever the case, that doesn't change any of the variables that they all have against them unless they do severe retconning and throwing all the choices down the toilet.

Besides, having any return could be just them returning as Cameo's or Temp Squaddies. Thus whatwas said was intentionally vague and for good reason. I applaude him for speaking his mind without revealing anything of importance.

[Bourne Endeavor]

And once again I reiterate. They are not required to have any plot relevance or contribute to its procession in any capacity. I cite Kasumi and Zaeed my primary examples given neither were available in the vanilla game yet were integrated seamlessly, devoid of plot disruption, flow or any direct impact. In fact, they even possessed scripted scenes as demonstrated in the Suicide Mission which were recycled variations of the existing cast.

This is compelling evidence to indicate it is a feasible undertaking. Each of the squad returns with a self contained mission or two specific to their development. For instance, we learn discover TIM has not been as forthcoming in regards to Miranda's past as she perceived. Perhaps it was not at her father's behest she was grown but TIM's.

Samara swore an oath of submission to protect the innocence and now as witness the coming of the Reapers. A galactic wide race of sapient machines with a genocide complex and decisions to make a new oath under Shepard to assist in preserving the galaxy.

As I have stated in many of our past encounters and may continue to do. You have speculation, not fact. Your assurance they will be cameo'd holds not greater relevance than anyone belief they will return. You may spew whatever theories you were to perpetrate however the reality remains unchanged and I shall take great pleasure in posting pictures of crow should the time come when you are proven wrong. Likewise, I will eat my helping if your claims hold water. It is a gamble I am more than willing to take.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 26 mars 2011 - 01:54 .

[AGogley]

Each returning crew member adds exponentially increasing complexity to the storyline that I think would be very difficult to script. Additionally, you have to be able to start the game from scratch without importing from a previous game. That's another dimension of complexity. It seems much easier to me to get rid of most the charachters and return a couple. I personally think Tali will return, not necessarily as a squadmate though. Clearly the geth/quarian dilemma is something that should be resolved.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Gah! the apostrophe is posessive, not plural!

Your opinion is biased, not bias. You display bias. You have a biased opinion. One is a noun, the other an adjective. Also, Dayquil makes me give out grammar lectures! Hurrah! Cold medication and English class for all!

Anwyay... Bioware has already shown a willingness to have things be different for renegades than paragons, or based on any of your decisions. A friend of mine who is a straight dude playing a straight male Shepard let Ashley die on Virmire because he thought she was annoying and didn't know you could have romances. This may cut him off from a potential love interest in ME3. So they are "punishing" him for not knowing she was a possible love interest in one, and taking a weird option,

They were also willing to "punish" people who killed Wrex. They were willing to "punish" people who sold Legion. They were willing to "punish" people who never activated Grunt - if you're going to define anything that makes you miss content as a punishment, that is. I actually consider it an added freedom. If I don't think I would suffer a filthy Geth on my ship, I can sell him to have horrible expiriments done on him. It means I miss a whole character, a loyalty mission, and a huge, game-changing plot point. Bioware didn't have to offer me that choice, but they did. The fact that I have to deal with the consequences is a gift, not a punishment. (Note: I did not sell legion. But that may mean I'll have to deal with it when he and the Rachni Queen team up to prove that I am an idiot.)

I would love it if all squad mates were created equal, but I think that is an unreasonable expectation to have, and an unreasonable demand to make. There is, for example, one ME2 FemShep love interest who does not seem very popular at all. There isn't official data, but all survey I've seen seem to indicate that 1-2% of all players romance this person, at  max. Some people really DO love him, though. You're left with a problem developers are often faced with: "I only have 300 man-hours worth of resources left. Do I spend 15 hours... 5% of my resources... on content that only interests 1% of my players? Or do I use that 15 hours to try to create a new experience that will hopefully appeal to at least 5% of players?"

This isn't to say that developers have to bow to spreadsheets and surveys, but they'd been unwise to not consider them at all. On one hand, I keep seeing that less than 20% of people play as Female Shepard, yet they give her just as many romance options. They don't have to do it, and I consider it a kindness that they do. On the other hand, I don't love Miranda, but I know she's popular, so I acknowledge that she's more likely to come back than, say, Mordin (my favorite character). That said, they can also buck fan demand, or compromise: a lot of people wanted Wrex in your squad again. You didn't get that, but you at least got something. The fact that Garrus is very popular makes me have hope that he will be back again, even if I lack certainty.

Nobody is saying they are 100% certain you will have access to every living squad member again. People are saying that it seems logical that Bioware will give you access to at least a couple of them, and possibly give you access to quite a few. If I had to guesstimate, I'd say you'll probably have access to 4-7 of your sqad mates from ME2, and the Virmire Survivor (maybe), plus 2-3 new characters. I'd also guess that you will eventually have access to 2-5 DLC or "special event" characters, some of whom may relate to previous games.

[AGogley]

"Nobody is saying they are 100% certain you will have access to every living squad member again. People are saying that it seems logical that Bioware will give you access to at least a couple of them"

I don't think that is what they are saying at all.  I think most people want to see most of one or the other return.

"I'd say you'll probably have access to 4-7 of your sqad mates from ME2, and the Virmire Survivor (maybe), plus 2-3 new characters. I'd also guess that you will eventually have access to 2-5 DLC or "special event" characters, some of whom may relate to previous games. "

So now you've gone from a "couple" to 4 to 7.  Seven would be more than half of the possible crewmates in ME2.  I don't think that's impossible, but it would add a lot of complexity with regards to script writing.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

AGogley wrote...

Each returning crew member adds exponentially increasing complexity to the storyline that I think would be very difficult to script. Additionally, you have to be able to start the game from scratch without importing from a previous game. That's another dimension of complexity. It seems much easier to me to get rid of most the charachters and return a couple. I personally think Tali will return, not necessarily as a squadmate though. Clearly the geth/quarian dilemma is something that should be resolved.

I'm going to give a similar example to the one I gave before, with Garrus, as to how you could easily bring back a lot of crew members. Again, this is just how I might code it if I were working on this game.

In ME3, you start on an away mission the Crew members with you are: 

Your Virmire Survivor (everyone has one)

If: Miranda is Alive, then she is available
If: Garrus is alive, then he is available
If: Both are alive you can pick who to bring (both are permanent squadmates)
If: neither is alive, you get Leroy Jenkins II, (a placeholder, similar to Jenkins in the first ME1)

Now you go recruit your squad. The first character you meet is

Theodore J. Batarian. He is a Batarian. New character! If you have Jenkins in your party, he shoots and kills (or wounds) Jenkins, so that Jenkins leaves your party. If you have Miranda or Garrus in your party, they dodge the bullet.

Now no matter what decisions you made in ME1 and ME2, you have at least 2 characters. You may or may not have anyone from ME2. You get back on the Normandy.

If Grunt was recruited and loyal, he's just there. If he wasn't, he isn't. If you never let him out of the tank, you get a bit of text that reveals you just sold his tank to either Cerberus or the Alliance.

If Legion was recruited and survived he is also just there, regardless of loyalty. If he isn't, you get a message from TiM in your mail - "Hey we still have that robot you sold us. Do you want it back, or do you just want more credits?" You can choose which to do.

Now the optional missions open up. They are: 

Recruit Susaee Talksfast, your new Salarian Crewmate!
Recruit Torbo Morgram, your new Volus Crewmate! 
If Tali survived, Recruit Tali!
If Thane survived, Recruit Thane!

Default ME3 Game, no import, would be as follows: 
*Maleshep - Virmire survivor is Ash, Miranda is alive, Garrus is dead. Grunt not recruited, Legion not recruited (you will recieve TIM's email asking if you want him), Tali is alive, Thane is alive.
*Femshep - Virmire survivor is Kaidan, Garrus is alive, Miranda is dead, Grunt not recruited, Legion not recruited (you will recieve TIM's email asking if you want him) Tali is alive Thane is alive.

If your Miranda, Garrus, Legion, Grunt, Thane, and Tali survived, you have access to 6 ME2 Crewmembers and 3 New Characters.

If you lost the average number of squadmates in the suicide mission (1-3), you may or may not be missing some of these people, but you probably have most of them.

If you somehow managed to let all six of those characters die and still survived yourself, you have yourself, your 3 new people, and your VS. This is still enough squad variation to easily finish the game, especially if there is DLC or special mission characters. (Bioware has explicitly said that doing horribly on the suicide mission may have very negatie consequences).

In the default game, you have access to 4 ME2 crewmates (you can choose whether or not to keep Legion) and 3 new characters.

In this scenario, Grunt is sort of a fluff character now - If you know and like him from the first game, he's still around, fighting stuff. If you don't care about him, you don't have to worry about missing a vital plot point because you don't have him - he's a small, easy-to-implement treat for those who completed ME2.

*****
I did this writeup in an hour, filled with cold medicine, and I'm not as good at development as a seasoned bioware dev is. Depending on the tools, this would take a team of three people about two weeks to prototype, in my opinion. About 1.5 weeks of that would be setting up the default structure (for the comes-with-the-game save file). 2-3 days at the end would be flagging and writing the variations. It is not too hard to code. VO would be expensive but as I've said before, Bioware loves to add bonus VO that most people will never hear.

If you haven't ever worked in a development system with multiple variables, this might all seem really hard to do. It is difficult, but it doesn't seem like it would be significantly more difficult than anything Bioware has done so far.

Why do I think it's possible? I could replicate this layout on the proprietary scripting software I used on a recent project, and that stuff was nearly a decade old and full of holes.  I'm sure that bioware has top-of-the-line scripting tools, and better developers than me. If I think I can do it, Bioware can definitely do it.

Edit: I want to add an aphorism I came up with at the GDC writer's sig this year:
"Talk is cheap, voiceover is priceless."

Writers are not always highly paid in the game industry, compared to artists and programmers (sad but true). I'm sure bioware writers are paid well, but I'd take a pay cut to write for Mass Effect 3. Hell, if it were legal, I'd write for ME3 for free. A 50 page first draft design document/script costs as much in man hours as one character model for a brand new, never-before-seen squadmate, if that. I can pump out so much text you guys, it's not even funny. So I don't see "this would require a lot of script-writing" as a factor that would likely cause Bioware to consider a new feature too labor-intensive.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 26 mars 2011 - 04:04 .

[Almostfaceman]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

AGogley wrote...

Each returning crew member adds exponentially increasing complexity to the storyline that I think would be very difficult to script. Additionally, you have to be able to start the game from scratch without importing from a previous game. That's another dimension of complexity. It seems much easier to me to get rid of most the charachters and return a couple. I personally think Tali will return, not necessarily as a squadmate though. Clearly the geth/quarian dilemma is something that should be resolved.

I'm going to give a similar example to the one I gave before, with Garrus, as to how you could easily bring back a lot of crew members. Again, this is just how I might code it if I were working on this game.

In ME3, you start on an away mission the Crew members with you are: 

Your Virmire Survivor (everyone has one)

If: Miranda is Alive, then she is available
If: Garrus is alive, then he is available
If: Both are alive you can pick who to bring
If: neither is alive, you get Leroy Jenkins II, (a placeholder, similar to Jenkins in the first ME1)

Now you go recruit your squad. The first character you meet is

Theodore J. Batarian. He is a Batarian. New character! If you have Jenkins in your party, he shoots and kills (or wounds) Jenkins, so that Jenkins leaves your party. If you have Miranda or Garrus in your party, they dodge the bullet.

Now no matter what decisions you made in ME1 and ME2, you have at least 2 characters. You may or may not have anyone from ME2. You get back on the Normandy.

If Grunt was recruited and loyal, he's just there. If he wasn't, he isn't. If you never let him out of the tank, you get a bit of text that reveals you just sold his tank to either Cerberus or the Alliance.

If Legion was recruited and survived he is also just there, regardless of loyalty. If he isn't, you get a message from TiM in your mail - "Hey we still have that robot you sold us. Do you want it back, or do you just want more credits?" You can choose which to do.

Now the optional missions open up. They are: 

Recruit Susaee Talksfast, your new Salarian Crewmate!
Recruit Torbo Morgram, your new Volus Crewmate! 
If Tali survived, Recruit Tali!
If Thane survived, Recruit Thane!

Default ME3 Game, no import, would be as follows: 
*Maleshep - Virmire survivor is Ash, Miranda is alive, Garrus is dead. Grunt not recruited, Legion not recruited (you will recieve TIM's email asking if you want him), Tali is alive, Thane is alive.
*Femshep - Virmire survivor is Kaidan, Garrus is alive, Miranda is dead, Grunt not recruited, Legion not recruited (you will recieve TIM's email asking if you want him) Tali is alive Thane is alive.

If your Miranda, Garrus, Legion, Grunt, Thane, and Tali survived, you have access to 6 ME2 Crewmembers and 3 New Characters.

If you lost the average number of squadmates in the suicide mission (1-3), you may or may not be missing some of these people, but you probably have most of them.

If you somehow managed to let all six of those characters die and still survived yourself, you have yourself, your 3 new people, and your VS. This is still enough squad variation to easily finish the game, especially if there is DLC or special mission characters. (Bioware has explicitly said that doing horribly on the suicide mission may have very negatie consequences).

In the default game, you have access to 4 ME2 crewmates (you can choose whether or not to keep Legion) and 3 new characters.

In this scenario, Grunt is sort of a fluff character now - If you know and like him from the first game, he's still around, fighting stuff. If you don't care about him, you don't have to worry about missing a vital plot point because you don't have him - he's a small, easy-to-implement treat for those who completed ME2.

*****
I did this writeup in an hour, filled with cold medicine, and I'm not as good at development as a seasoned bioware dev is. Depending on the tools, this would take a team of three people about two weeks to prototype, in my opinion. About 1.5 weeks of that would be setting up the default structure (for the comes-with-the-game save file). 2-3 days at the end would be flagging and writing the variations. It is not too hard to code. VO would be expensive but as I've said before, Bioware loves to add bonus VO that most people will never hear.

If you haven't ever worked in a development system with multiple variables, this might all seem really hard to do. It is difficult, but it doesn't seem like it would be significantly more difficult than anything Bioware has done so far.

Why do I think it's possible? I could replicate this layout on the proprietary scripting software I used on a recent project, and that stuff was nearly a decade old and full of holes.  I'm sure that bioware has top-of-the-line scripting tools, and better developers than me. If I think I can do it, Bioware can definitely do it.

Maximum winnage.

[Lee337]

Bioware would be crazy if they made an entire game about recruiting new people again. Or re recruiting old ones. I don't think most of the characters are likely to leave and if they do they'll be quick to go pick up.
As for Thanes incurable illness even if he doesn't get a cure, he still might survive to see the reapers. Why does he have to die before ME3? Why not during or after?

ME3 is the end of Shepards story. It might be complex with all the choices but it also means they don't have to worry about making the choices fit into the next game. ME1 and ME2 couldn't have so many choices or they'd over complicated ME3. Now all that matters is what happens in game and the ending.

[Elite Midget]

Bioware has never denied you a Squadmate if you're Renegade or Paragon. That's a huge piece of content there. Even so, Morinth had nowhere near the depth as Samara since she was just a secret replacement Squaddie. Hell, they even had her use Samara's voice to save time, money, and better use manpower elsewhere.

The punishment for Wrex only effected Mass Effect 1 in any meaningful way which is understandable. It was in the same game and the game was practically over after Virmire anyway thus not much was really lost. Than the Legion thing didn't matter. The game was almost over anyway and it was restricted to just Mass Effect 2. Grunt could have been missed halfway through the story as well but again it was just limited to Mass Effect 2.

If any of the Squaddies start getting special treatment over others despite the variables against them than it would just cause more problems down the road. I know I would be hugely miffed if Garrus and Tali return, despite their killable status and other variables, yet no one else does. It would cause a huge backlash even larger than no one returning.

Wanna know why? Because Fans get attached to their Favorite characters. Thus the logically scenerio would be a bunch of fans explodeing in anger over the fact that the Tali and Garrus are in all 3 games yet everyone else was dropped off. After all, such special treatment is messed up, full of bias, and only addresses a minority of fans.

Yes, Garrus and Tali fans combined are smaller than the rest of the Other characters fans. Thus they would be the minority.

It would also make ME2 people wonder why they bothered to romance anyone but Garrus and Tali in that scenerio as well. Basically, by allowing at least Garrus and Tali to return, despite the many variables against them, you would be opening a whole new Can of Rage.

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

And once again I reiterate. They are not required to have any plot relevance or contribute to its procession in any capacity. I cite Kasumi and Zaeed my primary examples given neither were available in the vanilla game yet were integrated seamlessly, devoid of plot disruption, flow or any direct impact. In fact, they even possessed scripted scenes as demonstrated in the Suicide Mission which were recycled variations of the existing cast.

This is compelling evidence to indicate it is a feasible undertaking. Each of the squad returns with a self contained mission or two specific to their development. For instance, we learn discover TIM has not been as forthcoming in regards to Miranda's past as she perceived. Perhaps it was not at her father's behest she was grown but TIM's.

Samara swore an oath of submission to protect the innocence and now as witness the coming of the Reapers. A galactic wide race of sapient machines with a genocide complex and decisions to make a new oath under Shepard to assist in preserving the galaxy.

As I have stated in many of our past encounters and may continue to do. You have speculation, not fact. Your assurance they will be cameo'd holds not greater relevance than anyone belief they will return. You may spew whatever theories you were to perpetrate however the reality remains unchanged and I shall take great pleasure in posting pictures of crow should the time come when you are proven wrong. Likewise, I will eat my helping if your claims hold water. It is a gamble I am more than willing to take.

So you approve of retconning the characters, cutting out a wide swaths of tyheir dialouge, and the such because you want them in your Squad despite none of them haveing the ability to be intergrated into the Story? You know what they call that? DLC. Better start saving because Bioware might catch on! I mean, why add in Garrus as a shell when they can sell him later as a shell since fans clearly don't care about anything othe than their presence! Bravo, I say! After all, that's the only path since they can't intergrate them into the story due to many Variables from ME2.

You do know that Samara didn't see the Reapers right? They aren't there and Samara's code doesn't allow her to do nothing while waiting for the Reapers. Thus she'll return to her Code. Hell, she didn't do jack when Saren was about the hand the Universe over and was instead doing her Code thing. So clearly her Code dictates all unless you swears others. Unfortunately her Code only lasts for ME2 which she stated upon recruitment.

Variables are speculation, they're fact which was put in by Bioware. I didn't make this stuff up if you must know and these aren't even all of the Variables anyway that would push the Squaddies to leave. No, there are the general ones that even a new player would understand just fine after just one playthrough.

Finally... I like the gambling type. In the end someone will be wrong. Let's see what cards Bioware will deal. If I'm wrong than so be it but if I'm right than so be it as well. Whatever the case this issue has two sides and I will not waver, like you wont, on my views on the matter.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 26 mars 2011 - 03:32 .

[Elite Midget]

Bioware has it in Thane's History that he has less than a year to live when he's recruited. Mass Effect 3 takes place at least over a year after the events of Mass Effect 2. Thus Thane chances of living up to than are slim to none unless Bioware goes about retconning that out. Especially since Shepard has no option of convinceing Thane to get help since he might be needed again.

Also, yes. Mass Effect is Shepards story not the story of reaccureing Squaddies and Shepard.

Mass Effect 2 had a surpringly large amount of Variables for each Squaddie. Many of these Variables can't be changed no matter what you do as well and that's a pity.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 26 mars 2011 - 03:28 .