1053 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

As I said, 3 flags.

You forgot about the combinations [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Uh, a different combination doesn't create a new flag.

But they create issues with gameplay balance, test points for the QA team, and so on.

[-Skorpious-]

Consumer: "Hey Coca Cola, my family and I really like the vanilla coke spin-off you guys have - will it be available after the promotion ends?
Coca Cola: No.
Consumer: Why?
Cocal Cola: Because.
Consumer: Well?
Coca Cola: Because we (partially) deleted the vanilla coke recipe - recreating it would cause us to actually work harder. However, we didn't delete coke zero's recipe; they taste pretty similar anyways.
Consumer: But 85% of us who voted on the online poll prefer vanilla coke over coke zero...
Coca Cola: VANILLA COKE CAN POTENTIALLY DIE DURING END-GAME MARKETING! BRINGING BACK A DEAD FLAVOR WILL SCREW UP FUTURE FLAVORS!
Consumer:...Seriously?

[Zulu_DFA]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Consumer: "Hey Coca Cola, my family and I really like the vanilla coke spin-off you guys have - will it be available after the promotion ends?
Coca Cola: No.
Consumer: Why?
Cocal Cola: Because.
Consumer: Well?
Coca Cola: Because we (partially) deleted the vanilla coke recipe - recreating it would cause us to actually work harder. However, we didn't delete coke zero's recipe; they taste pretty similar anyways.
Consumer: But 85% of us who voted on the online poll prefer vanilla coke over coke zero...
Coca Cola: VANILLA COKE CAN POTENTIALLY DIE DURING END-GAME MARKETING! BRINGING BACK A DEAD FLAVOR WILL SCREW UP FUTURE FLAVORS!
Consumer:...Seriously?

That's definitely the approach BioWare is taking with Garrus. Al-ways Calibra'-shuns! Enjoy them.

I've taken preventive measures against them, though.

[Phaedon]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But they create issues with gameplay balance, test points for the QA team, and so on.

From a programming perspective, they shouldn't.

Different combinations don't have different results, it is the flags themselves that matter.

Modifié par Phaedon, 10 avril 2011 - 03:52 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Arcian wrote...

Here, have a bridge:

[picture of a bridge]

Here, have some plot flags:

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 avril 2011 - 04:04 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Arcian wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Here, have a bridge:

[picture of a bridge]

Here, have some plot flags:

[picture of the party of someone who failed miserably at ME2]

Cool skillz, brah.

AWESOME!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 avril 2011 - 04:13 .

[Dave666]

Arcian wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Here, have a bridge:

[picture of a bridge]

Here, have some plot flags:

[picture of the party of someone who failed miserably at ME2]

Cool skillz, brah.

AWESOME!

Great.  Now I've got Elton John songs in my head...

I'll get you for this!

[lovgreno]

Arcian wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Here, have a bridge:

[picture of a bridge]

Here, have some plot flags:

[picture of the party of someone who failed miserably at ME2]

Cool skillz, brah.

Oh well, I guess that guy will have to settle for the new teammates then.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Argument finished then.

Squaddies can return, and the signature is very valid.

/thread

The signature is, of course, valid, as a signature, since you can put a robo-pony in it, and it will still be valid as a signature. But as a point in a certain forum argument, it is silly, because the VS and Liara were never subjected to the "Variables that haunt the Fallen".

Now, if you stopped being stubborn and removed Liara and the VS from your sig, so that I finally could feel spited by Garrus saying "Ah, yes, variables...", we could continue the discussion. Only you'd be at a loss again, because you just admitted that the ME2 expendables shouldn't really return, and the "variables" argument was right. I mean, you admitted to spiting people with your sig, and it implies that you also admit they were right about the variables and their effects, but in spite of it, BioWare is bringing Garrus back, so go kill yourselves Zulu_DFA and Elite Midget. How elementary.

Ok. I will make this as simple as I possibly can.

The premise of this thread is that several kinds of variables, both narrative and death-related, "haunt" character in the ME series. In the post I am about to quote, EM applies exactly this reasoning to the dead, and says they should be treated Exactly the Same as Liara.

In this post, he explicitly mentions the specific "variables" that will make it nearly impossible for the VS and Liara to return. Emphasis mine. Now, a lot of these variables have been proven false or normalized, but the point still stands - Elite took the time to write down the "variables" that made it unlikely for the VS to return, and said that Liara's cameo was how every single ME character would be treated, implying that, due to her plot developments, she was also unable to return.

Midget's premise isn't just about flags. It's also about NARRATIVE.

So can we all acknowledge that the sig is fine in general, even if it does not relate to anyone in ME2 other than Garrus? 

Elite Midget wrote...

Not a leap since I'm no fool and I'm not stupid. You know what you implied but when I put it out for all to see, as you demanded, all you do is deny and deny. Why must you refuse to even stand before what you endorse and simply hide amoungst the shadows and try to make everyone believe otherwise?.

They aren't valid when you look at all the variables. It isn't plausible and you continue to speak as a fan clinging to straws for the impossible. What you've failed to do in each of your arguements that you refuse to place yourself in Bioware's shoes and instead continue to delude yourself to an unreachable dream. Maybe you should stop thinking about what you wantand start thinking more on line on what Bioware wants and what Bioware can accomplish in the most efficient manner possible.

VS has a slim returning chance because of the responsibilities they now have. Simply put Shepard isn't officially in the Alliance anymore and not all Shepards will abandon Cerberus. Thus it means that VS has little of no chance of entrance due to that fact. This is from someone what was hugely miffed about VS getting the shaft in ME2 since I romanced Ashley.
In no way did ME1 ever hint on how ME2 would begin or that I would have
no option to contact VS even after the loophole they were given.

Squaddies
evolve and it's all but outright said that Liara wouldn't return
either. She's the SB now and can do more good there than as Shepard's
guns. I've met many Liara fans that have learned to deal with this fact
that they may never get Liara again as a Squaddie. Simply put they
understand that Bioware has taken the character far beyond just being
one of Shepard's random and irrelevant guns. With what they've done with
Liara is what should be done to handle the dead since it's the most
respectful path to take for the characters.

Bioware had options,
yes. Than they threw a lot of them out after chooseing on the Variables
to add in and the fact that they can all die. This is a clear sign that
Bioware had no plans on ever bringing them back for ME3 since nothing
major would be needed to be changed to prevent their deaths. Instead
Bioware evidently has much larger plans for said characters beyond
being Shepard's Guns and I approve of it.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 10 avril 2011 - 05:32 .

[Zulu_DFA]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

With what they've done with Liara is what should be done to handle the dead since it's the most respectful path to take for the characters.

Still no indication that Elite Midget mixes up Liara and the ME2 expendables. Liara wasn't on the ME2 squad because she was destined to become the Shadow Broker. The ME2 expendables won't make it into the default/permanent ME3 squad because of the variables. Availability for 1-2 levels and a role in the universe outside of Shep's team, like Liara in ME2+LotSB, is the most they can get.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 avril 2011 - 05:44 .

[Dave666]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Argument finished then.

Squaddies can return, and the signature is very valid.

/thread

The signature is, of course, valid, as a signature, since you can put a robo-pony in it, and it will still be valid as a signature. But as a point in a certain forum argument, it is silly, because the VS and Liara were never subjected to the "Variables that haunt the Fallen".

Now, if you stopped being stubborn and removed Liara and the VS from your sig, so that I finally could feel spited by Garrus saying "Ah, yes, variables...", we could continue the discussion. Only you'd be at a loss again, because you just admitted that the ME2 expendables shouldn't really return, and the "variables" argument was right. I mean, you admitted to spiting people with your sig, and it implies that you also admit they were right about the variables and their effects, but in spite of it, BioWare is bringing Garrus back, so go kill yourselves Zulu_DFA and Elite Midget. How elementary.

Ok. I will make this as simple as I possibly can.

The premise of this thread is that several kinds of variables, both narrative and death-related, "haunt" character in the ME series. In the post I am about to quote, EM applies exactly this reasoning to the dead, and says they should be treated Exactly the Same as Liara.

In this post, he explicitly mentions the specific "variables" that will make it nearly impossible for the VS and Liara to return. Emphasis mine. Now, a lot of these variables have been proven false or normalized, but the point still stands - Elite took the time to write down the "variables" that made it unlikely for the VS to return, and said that Liara's cameo was how every single ME character would be treated, implying that, due to her plot developments, she was also unable to return.

Midget's premise isn't just about flags. It's also about NARRATIVE.

So can we all acknowledge that the sig is fine in general, even if it does not relate to anyone in ME2 other than Garrus? 

Elite Midget wrote...

Not a leap since I'm no fool and I'm not stupid. You know what you implied but when I put it out for all to see, as you demanded, all you do is deny and deny. Why must you refuse to even stand before what you endorse and simply hide amoungst the shadows and try to make everyone believe otherwise?.

They aren't valid when you look at all the variables. It isn't plausible and you continue to speak as a fan clinging to straws for the impossible. What you've failed to do in each of your arguements that you refuse to place yourself in Bioware's shoes and instead continue to delude yourself to an unreachable dream. Maybe you should stop thinking about what you wantand start thinking more on line on what Bioware wants and what Bioware can accomplish in the most efficient manner possible.

VS has a slim returning chance because of the responsibilities they now have. Simply put Shepard isn't officially in the Alliance anymore and not all Shepards will abandon Cerberus. Thus it means that VS has little of no chance of entrance due to that fact. This is from someone what was hugely miffed about VS getting the shaft in ME2 since I romanced Ashley.
In no way did ME1 ever hint on how ME2 would begin or that I would have
no option to contact VS even after the loophole they were given.

Squaddies
evolve and it's all but outright said that Liara wouldn't return
either. She's the SB now and can do more good there than as Shepard's
guns. I've met many Liara fans that have learned to deal with this fact
that they may never get Liara again as a Squaddie. Simply put they
understand that Bioware has taken the character far beyond just being
one of Shepard's random and irrelevant guns. With what they've done with
Liara is what should be done to handle the dead since it's the most
respectful path to take for the characters.

Bioware had options,
yes. Than they threw a lot of them out after chooseing on the Variables
to add in and the fact that they can all die. This is a clear sign that
Bioware had no plans on ever bringing them back for ME3 since nothing
major would be needed to be changed to prevent their deaths. Instead
Bioware evidently has much larger plans for said characters beyond
being Shepard's Guns and I approve of it.

:wub:

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

The removals that the bribed reviewers praised and that gave the game so many awards? Yeah, I guess you are right.

fixed.

Seriously, how does one company bribe hundreds of review sites AFTER making a 40 hour game and paying for top notch voice acting like Martin Sheen, Keith David, Carrie-Ann Moss, Seth Green, Trisha Helfer, Adam Baldwin, Claudia Black, Michael Hogan, and the rest?

I mean come on, one or two review sites maybe but ALL of them? Even the blogs? That is completely impossible.

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

The removals that the bribed reviewers praised and that gave the game so many awards? Yeah, I guess you are right.

fixed.

Seriously, how does one company bribe hundreds of review sites AFTER making a 40 hour game and paying for top notch voice acting like Martin Sheen, Keith David, Carrie-Ann Moss, Seth Green, Trisha Helfer, Adam Baldwin, Claudia Black, Michael Hogan, and the rest?
I mean come on, one or two review sites maybe but ALL of them? Even the blogs? That is completely impossible.

Ever heard of the expression "Don't ****** against the wind"?

Sure, the cast sounds great, which means the game lacks glitches, plot holes and such crap as planet scanning. 10/10!

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
They could but they didn't. Do you think they will put any effort into dealing with the ME2 variables, that are way more compex and warrant way more complex an approach to be properly accounted for, with the compexity growing exponentially with every additional expendable BioWare may try to bring back?

In what way are they more complex?
After all, this is a very minor decision.
How can you compare it to squad mates, or other major decisions?

In fact, some minor decisions like this one, did have an impact in ME2, for both outcomes. Like Citadel:Homecoming and Fist.

Considering that 3 squaddies have already confirmed to be returning, I think that the point is inexistant.

And you missed the point again. The point here is that the squddies suck when they return. They may feel fine for some, but for eveyone else they are morons or act out of character.

For example, IDK if you let Garrus kill Sidonis or stopped him, but let's assume you let him kill Sidonis, and BioWare's stats show more people stopped him, and they go on with it as a "canon" decision. So you finally corner TIM, and are going to put a bullet in him, but Garrus, who is on your squad, suddenly grabs your hand and insists that you should arrest TIM and follow due process. You: "WTF, Garrus???". Garrus: "I don't feel this is right Shepard" ["It's not what you want, Shepard, remember Sidonis, eye for eye is never an answer blah-blah" - for those who are the happy owners of the "right" plot flag.]

First of all, to the best of my knowledge Bioware have already proven they can incorporate this sort of effect into their games. Garrus responded differently if you paragoned him in ME1 than if you renegade him. This happened twice: Once when you rescue him and again on his LM.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Here, have a bridge:

[picture of a bridge]

Here, have some plot flags:

This equates to nothing, Zulu. You can only accomplish that via modding, which will crash the game if you leave the Normandy. Therefore, it is not evidence as the file would not be importable.

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

First of all, to the best of my knowledge Bioware have already proven they can incorporate this sort of effect into their games. Garrus responded differently if you paragoned him in ME1 than if you renegade him. This happened twice: Once when you rescue him and again on his LM.

And second, it has no impact on physical universe. Either way he wants to kill Sidonis. And either way he finishes the job or not according solely to your present behavior, but not to the character development he was supposed to undergo during ME1. The paragonized Garrus has no more qualms with pulling the trigger than the renegadized one, but if you choose to interfere, it's no harder to make the renegadized Garrus abort than the paragonized one.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 avril 2011 - 06:17 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

The removals that the bribed reviewers praised and that gave the game so many awards? Yeah, I guess you are right.

fixed.

Seriously, how does one company bribe hundreds of review sites AFTER making a 40 hour game and paying for top notch voice acting like Martin Sheen, Keith David, Carrie-Ann Moss, Seth Green, Trisha Helfer, Adam Baldwin, Claudia Black, Michael Hogan, and the rest?
I mean come on, one or two review sites maybe but ALL of them? Even the blogs? That is completely impossible.

Ever heard of the expression "Don't ****** against the wind"?

Sure, the cast sounds great, which means the game lacks glitches, plot holes and such crap as planet scanning. 10/10!

Yeah that did absolutely nothing to counter my argument. Let me rephrase as I don't seem to have conveyed my point properly.

Developing a game is hard and expensive. The cost of hiring programmers, artists, graphic designers, and writers is high. The cost of developing a game with regular voice actors is often daunting because, unlike a movie, a good game is in development for two or more years. This means you have to pay all your programmers, writers, graphic designers, and artists for extremely lengthy amounts of time.

Now, the cost of hiring Martin Sheen, Carrie-Ann Moss, Keith David, or any of those other VAs is MUCH more than hiring generic VAs like Meer and Hale because their quality demands it (and they know they can get away with it).

To top that off, they didn't hire a few high profile VAs, they hired HALF the cast in them, many of them characters with important plot relevance and lengthy expositions. Paying them by the hour for more than an entire movie's worth of dialog is expensive and it builds the more VAs you hire.

What you said is that the review sites were bribed, not that they were followers. Yes planet scanning was bad but Bioware fixed it if you haven't played recently. It is now noticibly faster and much less tedious.

Your plot holes are to many others minor. You are welcome to your opinion but you cannot claim majority when almost every review out there for the game disagrees, both fan and professional.

And just because the forums are filled with contrarians now is no evidence. My brother was blown away by how much better this game was than yet he's never touched this forum and when the game first came out there was a disproportionate amount of people who loved the game that have since left or joined in private discussions.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 10 avril 2011 - 06:18 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

the file would not be importable.

Wanna bet?

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

First of all, to the best of my knowledge Bioware have already proven they can incorporate this sort of effect into their games. Garrus responded differently if you paragoned him in ME1 than if you renegade him. This happened twice: Once when you rescue him and again on his LM.

And second, it has no impact on physical universe. Either way he wants to kill Sidonis. And either way he finishes the job or not according solely to your present behavior, but not to the character development he was supposed to undergo during ME1. The paragonized Garrus has no more qualms with pulling the trigger than the renegadized one, but if you choose to interfere, it's no harder to make the renegadized Garrus abort than the paragonised one.

I'm sorry that a person/character didn't take space jesus's words as the be all and end all of the discussion and that he didn't shape every decision he made afterwards based on the question "What would Shepard do?"

Judas Iscariot didn't exactly take the original Jesus's words completely to heart either and look how that turned out.

Garrus seeking a mission of revenge is hardly unbelievable and is certainly less damaging than Iscariot's actions. Stop stumbling on pebbles while you run for you life.

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

the file would not be importable.

Wanna bet?

Yes. I'll bet a million cookies right now.

[Zulu_DFA]

And saying that more people like ME2 does not contradict my assertion that the game is dumbed down and appeals to a wider audience. That actually... supports it.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 avril 2011 - 06:27 .