1053 réponses à ce sujet

[sponge56]

[/quote]
1. Shepard is not Hackett's friend. He had been one of the tens of thousands of his subordiantes, before he was assigned to the spectres and then defected to the "terrorists". It's not a plothole only if Cerberus is still secretly working for the Alliance.

2. It's not minor. People who get captured while plotting a terrorist act, and don't crack up immediately, lose the ability to walk unassisted (let alone fight) within an hour of captivity. The Batarians seem to be totally uninterested in preventing Kenson's plan from completion. The Batarians are morons.

3. Too much coincidence. Artifact, asteroid, the huge relay, all in one place. Unbelieveble.

4. Enough to make the DLC full of it, since it's a huge one one destroys the coherence of the plot. Besides, Kenson must have been indoctrinted the whole time, so why did she share her initial plan with you anyway, since it wasn't supposed to be carried out at that point already?

5. Sedatives are never used as primary measure of handling captives. Physical isolation and/or restraints is a must. Kenson's indoctrinated troops are morons.

6. Arrival would make more sense if it was another "conspiracy". Namely, Kenson was lying (she was indoctrinated the whole time, remember?), the Reapers were not really arriving through the Alpha relay, but wanted it destroyed for some reason (even if only to spark a galactic war on the eve of their actual arrival).

7. Arcturus is home to the Alliance's Parliament, so it must be a public enough place to hold any kind of public trial. And in any case, at the moment Hackett can't know about all those considerations for sure. Or Hackett is a seer.

Besides, the GI article actually doesn't even say it's going to be a trial per se, just some kind of inquiry/interrogation (while the Alliance will be tinkering with the Normandy), which makes it even more nonsensical to have it anywhere but the Arcturus Station. Unless there is a very good reason for it, and the narrative makes it at least as much clear as the out-of-game reason: put Shepard on Earth during the Reaper invasion for the kicks of it.
[/quote]


1. who else has a stealth ship that can rescue his friend without prompting batarian agression?
2. dont be ridiculous, its a game.  if you wanted that level of realism then shepard would go to the toilet and you would be flying in real time everywhere. And how on earth to you know what the batarins have been asking her before you arrived?
3.again a game, half the stuff shepard does is ridiculous and up to 'coincidence'. much of me1 and me2 plot focuses on shepard being in the right place at the right time with the right tools for the job.  otherwise it would just be 'oh damn were late, looks liek the reapers just killed everyone'.
4. to get you on the bloody station where they had the advantage.  you think a frail woman is going to take control of shepard while there alone in a shuttle?
5. petty and minor at best, you have no idea what they gave him, could have been to try and comotose him, therefore restarints not needed
6. could have been, wasnot the case however.  This is neither your game or your creation, it is Biowares.  Although that would have been interesting if it was done
7. again you are simply ignoring the fact that arcturus would imply alliance involvment.  Anyway, in real life, if a british general massacred a city and killed all their inhabitants he would be sent to the hauge, a court neither in the UK or where the crime was commited. 

Modifié par sponge56, 11 avril 2011 - 12:20 .

[Arijharn]

It doesn't make much sense to me personally of the importance of having an 'Alpha' relay, isn't that the whole point of the Citadel (and allows them to strike the head of the various species government in a decapitating strike?). While the Alpha relay may or may not be important, I'd have thought that the Reapers would have developed all the Mass Relay's to be as capable.

Having said that; the notion of Reapers setting off a war to divide some species that could otherwise co-ordinate strikes against the Reapers is rather brilliant, although the timing of it (aka; literally just before the Reapers arrive) seems a bit... off.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

I think I remember a variables thread in the DA2 forums a few months ago.
They said Anders was impossible.
Point made.

DA2's Metacritic user score: 4.3.
Point made.

Irrelevent.
The writers can retcon whatever they want, it's just a matter of whether or not they will. I don't suggest dwelling on it, you will be disappointed.

Right, dwelling on such things as logic, reason, coherence usually ends up in disappointment. But there is no point in giving it up either.

So, yeah, retcons suck, and writers who use retcons suck.

Look at the reviews, and you get a different picture.

The consensus seems to be - too dark. Too exploitative. Not enough conversation options. Combat too simple. Character creation too limited.

In scanning the first 50 reviews or so, no mention of a retcon. Did a search of the first 100-200, no use of the word retcon or the word Anders. The words "clunky," "hack and slash" and criticisms of the dialogue all appear over a dozen times. DLC is mentioned over and over. When the plot is mentioned, it's always in relation to seeming disconnected, with no mention of anything that seems Anders-related to me.

So... yeah, doesn't seem to be any correlation.

I'm not the biggest fan of retcons either, but when you're living in a fantasy universe, you can do things like that. And I've seen absolutely no evidence of any retcons in ME3.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 11 avril 2011 - 12:21 .

[Zulu_DFA]

sponge56 wrote...

1. who else has a stealth ship that can rescue his friend without prompting batarian agression?

The Alliance mass produces them.

sponge56 wrote...

2. dont be ridiculous, its a game.  if you wanted that level of realism then shepard would go to the toilet and you would be flying in real time everywhere. And how on earth to you know what the batarins have been asking her before you arrived?

I know it's a game, and I want the bad guys to pretend they actually want to win once in a while.

sponge56 wrote...

3.again a game, half the stuff shepard does is ridiculous and up to 'coincidence'. much of me1 and me2 plot focuses on shepard being in the right place at the right time with the right tools for the job.  otherwise it would just be 'oh damn were late, looks liek the reapers just killed everyone'.

Two coincinding things = OK. Three or more coincinding things = bad writing.

sponge56 wrote...

4. to get you on the bloody station where they had the advantage.  you think a frail woman is going to take control of shepard while there alone in a shuttle?

No. I was asking why she told him everything about the Reapers plans and her own initial plan, instead of inventing some simpler (and more believable). And again, why they didn't dismantle it???

sponge56 wrote...

5. petty and minor at best, you have no idea what they gave him, could have been to try and comotose him, therefore restarints not needed.

In other words, they are morons. Becasue it isn't rocket science that when you have an important prisoner you don't have him lie around like a sack of potatoes, sedated or not. You put him in a room that can't be opened from the inside.

(And they tell me Cerberus is inept...)

sponge56 wrote...

6. could have been, wasnot the case however.  This is neither your game or your creation, it is Biowares.  Although that would have been interesting if it was done

It doesn't matter whose creation it is, if it's full of plot holes, it's full of plot holes.

sponge56 wrote...

7. again you are simply ignoring the fact that arcturus would imply alliance involvment. Anyway, in real life, if a british general massacred a city and killed all their inhabitants he would be sent to the hauge, a court neither in the UK or where the crime was commited.

And how Earth can imply Alliance uninvolvement?

Arcturus Station = Alliance interrogating Shepard.
Earth = Allinace interrogation Shepard on Earth for some unexplained reason.

And I'm not sure about British generals, but somehow I think they are more like American generals, than Serbian generals, and about American generals I know for sure that thay will not be tried in the Hague no matter how grave their crimes are. The will be tried by the US military autorities. And in any case, the Citadel is a "Space Hague" in the ME universe.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 avril 2011 - 01:09 .

[Arijharn]

In the 'real world' the only way Cmdr. Shephard would be dragged to Earth to be trialed would be as if he lost the war for example (aka; against public perception, against the Batarian's, something). In a real world sort of thing, if an American or British general did something bad, they'd be trialled by their countrymen by their country. In effect, Cmdr. Shephard is getting dragged out to be tried at 'International Court settings' (aka; Nuremberg War Trials, Saddam Hussein-esque trial etc, etc), which means that he's going to get burnt... badly, and most likely because of pressure from the System Alliance's civilian government and/or the Citadel Council.

[CroGamer002]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Alliance mass produces them.

Normandy costs same as heavy cruiser.
Not gonna happen.

I know it's a game, and I want the bad guys to pretend they actually want to win once in a while.

Point?

Two coincinding things = OK. Three or more coincinding things = bad writing.

What coincidences are talking about?

No. I was asking why she told him everything about the Reapers plans and her own initial plan, instead of inventing some simpler (and more believable). And again, why they didn't dismantle it???

More simple plan, are you high?
And why didn't they dismantle it? Nobody knew they were there and they called of Project around same time when Shepard returned Kenson to that asteroid.

In other words, they are morons. Becasue it isn't rocket science that when you have an important prisoner you don't have him lie around like a sack of potatoes, sedated or not. You put him in a room that can't be opened from the inside.

They never expected to have a prisoner and Harbinger wanted to maintain Shepard's body in good condition maybe?

It doesn't matter whose creation it is, if it's full of plot holes, it's full of plot holes.

What plotholes?

And how Earth can imply Alliance uninvolvement?

Arcturus Station = Alliance interrogating Shepard.
Earth = Allinace interrogation Shepard on Earth for some unexplained reason.

And I'm not sure about British generals, but somehow I think thir are more like American generals, than Serbian generals, and about American generals I know for sure that thay will not be tried in the Hague no matter how grave their crimes are. The will be tried by the US military autorities. And in any case, the Citadel is a "Space Hague" in the ME universe.

Poor example since USA is pretty much leader of NATO and it got away many times when showing a finger to UN since it's very powerful country and only China can stand against USA alone, while Alliance has Turian Hierarchy, Salarian Union, Asari Republics and Batarian Hierarchy to deal with so they wouldn't get away with big crimes without big and very negative consequences.

Modifié par Mesina2, 11 avril 2011 - 01:06 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Arijharn wrote...

In the 'real world' the only way Cmdr. Shephard would be dragged to Earth to be trialed would be as if he lost the war for example (aka; against public perception, against the Batarian's, something). In a real world sort of thing, if an American or British general did something bad, they'd be trialled by their countrymen by their country. In effect, Cmdr. Shephard is getting dragged out to be tried at 'International Court settings' (aka; Nuremberg War Trials, Saddam Hussein-esque trial etc, etc), which means that he's going to get burnt... badly, and most likely because of pressure from the System Alliance's civilian government and/or the Citadel Council.

Exactly. I keep saying that it would be hilarious is Shepard is literally tried at the Hague, since that's what is figuratively happening.

[Zulu_DFA]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

In the 'real world' the only way Cmdr. Shephard would be dragged to Earth to be trialed would be as if he lost the war for example (aka; against public perception, against the Batarian's, something). In a real world sort of thing, if an American or British general did something bad, they'd be trialled by their countrymen by their country. In effect, Cmdr. Shephard is getting dragged out to be tried at 'International Court settings' (aka; Nuremberg War Trials, Saddam Hussein-esque trial etc, etc), which means that he's going to get burnt... badly, and most likely because of pressure from the System Alliance's civilian government and/or the Citadel Council.

Exactly. I keep saying that it would be hilarious is Shepard is literally tried at the Hague, since that's what is figuratively happening.

And it still would be a plot hole, because the "Space Hague" for space crimes in the space opera called Mass Effect is on the Citadel, not in the Dutch Hague.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 avril 2011 - 01:13 .

[ODST 5723]

Arijharn wrote...

It doesn't make much sense to me personally of the importance of having an 'Alpha' relay, isn't that the whole point of the Citadel (and allows them to strike the head of the various species government in a decapitating strike?). While the Alpha relay may or may not be important, I'd have thought that the Reapers would have developed all the Mass Relay's to be as capable.

Having said that; the notion of Reapers setting off a war to divide some species that could otherwise co-ordinate strikes against the Reapers is rather brilliant, although the timing of it (aka; literally just before the Reapers arrive) seems a bit... off.

The Citadel, as described, sounds like it's designed to be a focal point and a means of controlling the relay systems, not only by ensuring a decapitating strike, but also by controlling the flow of what relays are active and when, thus it is also a debilitating and isolating strike as well. 

That doesn't mean that it's a conduit that connect all relays and allows for travel to any relay of their choosing, which is what it sounded like the Alpha relay could do.  When the Citadel relay became off-limits for allowing them to come from dark space directly, this may show, if true, that they did conceive of a system of redundancies and alternate plans to accomplish the same end.

It could also show that perhaps the Citadel and Alpha Relay's roles were different in the past and the Reapers are forced to rely on more ancient techniques since forces outside of their control have prevented them from using their preferred method.  Perhaps the Citadel was created after some of the relays as they became more experienced their harvesting.  Perhaps its abilities were not duplicated for a reason.

If the Alpha Relay truly was one-of-a-kind, then losing it is a significant event regardless of whether it was part of their plans or not.  I don't think it was, given the fact that the countdown is legitimate and a failure to stop them in-time leads to a critical mission failure.  If it was a Reaper sacrifice in-order to prevent galactic unity, it has to come at a cost.  Time, energy, etc.

I don't see what they have to benefit from further delay, especially as their enemies have time to fortify their positions and are already distracted, disjointed and disorganized.

This points to the arrival scenario as a credible threat rather than simply a manipulation.  Since we don't know how much of what Kenson said is legitimate, I choose to believe for now that it was another serious setback for the Reapers but with some silver-lining to it.  The batarians have never had a restriction on their dreadnought production and are now even less likely than ever before to aid humanity.  The turians and batarians are also at each other's throats.  The tension between 3 of the largest military powers in the galaxy are now at the highest they've ever been.

On the downside, the Alliance is begninning to support turian dreadnought construction which signals that turian opposition to an Alliance build-up would likely be minimal as well.  If that build-up doesn't lead to conflict between them or with other races, then the Reapers will be facing yet more opposition than they had before on top of the quantum leaps that could be afforded the Citadel races from any reverse engineered tech culled from Sovereign as it seems that little currently known value was gained from the Derelict.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

In the 'real world' the only way Cmdr. Shephard would be dragged to Earth to be trialed would be as if he lost the war for example (aka; against public perception, against the Batarian's, something). In a real world sort of thing, if an American or British general did something bad, they'd be trialled by their countrymen by their country. In effect, Cmdr. Shephard is getting dragged out to be tried at 'International Court settings' (aka; Nuremberg War Trials, Saddam Hussein-esque trial etc, etc), which means that he's going to get burnt... badly, and most likely because of pressure from the System Alliance's civilian government and/or the Citadel Council.

Exactly. I keep saying that it would be hilarious is Shepard is literally tried at the Hague, since that's what is figuratively happening.

And it still would be a plot hole, because the "Space Hague" for space crimes in the space opera called Mass Effect is on the Citadel, not in the Dutch Hague.

But what about the earth Hague? Can't that be on earth? Like... at the actual Hague?

If humanity has never gone to trial for warcrimes before, they could be establishing this as they go along. Like when we selected the Hague as... well... the Hague. They may be selecting a location given weight by their particular history, in order to show their seriousness.

[ODST 5723]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

In the 'real world' the only way Cmdr. Shephard would be dragged to Earth to be trialed would be as if he lost the war for example (aka; against public perception, against the Batarian's, something). In a real world sort of thing, if an American or British general did something bad, they'd be trialled by their countrymen by their country. In effect, Cmdr. Shephard is getting dragged out to be tried at 'International Court settings' (aka; Nuremberg War Trials, Saddam Hussein-esque trial etc, etc), which means that he's going to get burnt... badly, and most likely because of pressure from the System Alliance's civilian government and/or the Citadel Council.

Exactly. I keep saying that it would be hilarious is Shepard is literally tried at the Hague, since that's what is figuratively happening.

And it still would be a plot hole, because the "Space Hague" for space crimes in the space opera called Mass Effect is on the Citadel, not in the Dutch Hague.

It's not a plot hole if Shepard is still considered an Alliance officer and they're holding a formal trial to keep him out of the intergalacitc court setting, or because Alliance brass want an opportunity to either publicly back him or formally condemn him for his action BEFORE an intergalactic trial.

If it's to back him, then he has an opportunity to start setting the stage for his defense.  If not, he'll be condemned and then thrown to the wolves as any support he may have had from the Counsel would have been limited to the Terminus Systems and not to batarian space.

[Zulu_DFA]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

In the 'real world' the only way Cmdr. Shephard would be dragged to Earth to be trialed would be as if he lost the war for example (aka; against public perception, against the Batarian's, something). In a real world sort of thing, if an American or British general did something bad, they'd be trialled by their countrymen by their country. In effect, Cmdr. Shephard is getting dragged out to be tried at 'International Court settings' (aka; Nuremberg War Trials, Saddam Hussein-esque trial etc, etc), which means that he's going to get burnt... badly, and most likely because of pressure from the System Alliance's civilian government and/or the Citadel Council.

Exactly. I keep saying that it would be hilarious is Shepard is literally tried at the Hague, since that's what is figuratively happening.

And it still would be a plot hole, because the "Space Hague" for space crimes in the space opera called Mass Effect is on the Citadel, not in the Dutch Hague.

But what about the earth Hague? Can't that be on earth? Like... at the actual Hague?

The court in the Dutch Hague is for the poor suckers who lose wars to NATO or get overthrown by NATO-backed revolts on Earth. I can't see how it can have any relevance to what happened in space to members of a race of space slavers, which is at odds with the Space NATO, due to the actions of a Space NATO (ex-[?])officer.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If humanity has never gone to trial for warcrimes before, they could be establishing this as they go along. Like when we selected the Hague as... well... the Hague. They may be selecting a location given weight by their particular history, in order to show their seriousness.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Besides, the GI article actually doesn't even say it's going to be a trial per se, just some kind of inquiry/interrogation (while the Alliance will be tinkering with the Normandy), which makes it even more nonsensical to have it anywhere but the Arcturus Station. Unless there is a very good reason for it, and the narrative makes it at least as much clear as the out-of-game reason: put Shepard on Earth during the Reaper invasion for the kicks of it.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Arcian wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And it still would be a plot hole, because the "Space Hague" for space crimes in the space opera called Mass Effect is on the Citadel, not in the Dutch Hague.

More assumptions that you fail to label as such. You're just pulling statements out of your ass and it's starting to get REALLY annoying.

Come back when you can support those statements with proof.

[Vanaer]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

In the 'real world' the only way Cmdr. Shephard would be dragged to Earth to be trialed would be as if he lost the war for example (aka; against public perception, against the Batarian's, something). In a real world sort of thing, if an American or British general did something bad, they'd be trialled by their countrymen by their country. In effect, Cmdr. Shephard is getting dragged out to be tried at 'International Court settings' (aka; Nuremberg War Trials, Saddam Hussein-esque trial etc, etc), which means that he's going to get burnt... badly, and most likely because of pressure from the System Alliance's civilian government and/or the Citadel Council.

Exactly. I keep saying that it would be hilarious is Shepard is literally tried at the Hague, since that's what is figuratively happening.

And it still would be a plot hole, because the "Space Hague" for space crimes in the space opera called Mass Effect is on the Citadel, not in the Dutch Hague.

But what about the earth Hague? Can't that be on earth? Like... at the actual Hague?

If humanity has never gone to trial for warcrimes before, they could be establishing this as they go along. Like when we selected the Hague as... well... the Hague. They may be selecting a location given weight by their particular history, in order to show their seriousness.

That would be epic. It would also make some connection with showing London in the trailer, as London is aprox. 300 km from the Hague (just a splash of water in between, but alas) - which isn't that far.

[Vanaer]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The court in the Dutch Hague is for the poor suckers who lose wars to NATO or get overthrown by NATO-backed revolts on Earth. I can't see how it can have any relevance to what happened in space to members of a race of space slavers, which is at odds with the Space NATO, due to the actions of a Space NATO (ex-[?])officer.

True, but that's arguing ceterus paribus. We don't have an unified government or military institution either now, do we?

[candidate88766]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. Shepard is not Hackett's friend. He had been one of the tens of thousands of his subordiantes, before he was assigned to the spectres and then defected to the "terrorists". It's not a plothole only if Cerberus is still secretly working for the Alliance.

2. It's not minor. People who get captured while plotting a terrorist act, and don't crack up immediately, lose the ability to walk unassisted (let alone fight) within an hour of captivity. The Batarians seem to be totally uninterested in preventing Kenson's plan from completion. The Batarians are morons.

3. Too much coincidence. Artifact, asteroid, the huge relay, all in one place. Unbelieveble.

4. Enough to make the DLC full of it, since it's a huge one one destroys the coherence of the plot. Besides, Kenson must have been indoctrinted the whole time, so why did she share her initial plan with you anyway, since it wasn't supposed to be carried out at that point already?

5. Sedatives are never used as primary measure of handling captives. Physical isolation and/or restraints is a must. Kenson's indoctrinated troops are morons.

6. Arrival would make more sense if it was another "conspiracy". Namely, Kenson was lying (she was indoctrinated the whole time, remember?), the Reapers were not really arriving through the Alpha relay, but wanted it destroyed for some reason (even if only to spark a galactic war on the eve of their actual arrival).

7. Arcturus is home to the Alliance's Parliament, so it must be a public enough place to hold any kind of public trial. And in any case, at the moment Hackett can't know about all those considerations for sure. Or Hackett is a seer.

Besides, the GI article actually doesn't even say it's going to be a trial per se, just some kind of inquiry/interrogation (while the Alliance will be tinkering with the Normandy), which makes it even more nonsensical to have it anywhere but the Arcturus Station. Unless there is a very good reason for it, and the narrative makes it at least as much clear as the out-of-game reason: put Shepard on Earth during the Reaper invasion for the kicks of it.

1. Hackett knows he can trust Shepard to do missions as evidenced by the 'paragon' or the 'renegade' missions in ME1 that Hackett gives you based on your profile (can't remember their names). Besides, Shepard is the one going on and on about the Reapers' return so he is the one person you can count on to give this mission the priority it deserves as it involves evidence of a Reaper invasion. He also happens to have a stealth ship (given the cost that went into it in ME1 you cannot possibly state they are 'mass-produced' as you did earlier in this thread) so is suited to this type of mission.

2. Their is no evidence to indicate that psychological or chemical torture has not been used on her yet. While pyshical torture is more productive they may not want to use it on an old woman (she looks old in game, I don't actually know her canon age) for fear of accidentally killing her.

3. They find an artifact on an asteroid, decide the best course of action is to destroy the Relay and the most convenient way to do that is to use the asteroid they have already established a research base on. The asteroid may have already been moved a significant amount before Arrival beings. Besides, we don't know Object Rho's purpose - it could be essential in operating the Alpha Relay's enhanced capabilities. Placing the Object on a nearby asteroid should hide it whilst keeping it in range. We don't know the Object's purpose so we can't comment on whether its proximity to the Relay is by design, by the asteroid already having been moved by the researchers, or by coincidence (if it is coincidence then I can see why you call it a plot hole, but we don't know).

4. One plot hole doesn't make it full of plot holes. And the reason she shared her plan is because characters' dialogue is the only way Bioware can tell the story to the player, and Dr Kenson was a convenient way of telling the player the Reapers' plan.

5. Sedatives may have advanced hugely by the ME era. Besides, Shepard was unarmed, trapped in a sealable room with armed guards. And before you mention the mech terminal, it makes sense that people trapped inside the medical room may need to defend it.

6. The codex says how the Alpha Relay can connect to up to about 16 other Relays if given enough power - it makes sense that the Reapers would arrive here and use it as an entry point to the galaxy. The game even shows them arriving at the Relay in the vision (which is another method by which Bioware can explain to the player what is going to happen - its as much for the player's benefit as is it Shepard's). The Reapers have no reason not to want to use this entry point to the galaxy. Even if they want the galaxy to be in civil war there are better ways than by destroying the massive tactical advantage given by the Alpha Relay. 

I will admit that some forshadowing of the Alpha Relay would've gone a long way though.

7. Just because it has the Parliament doesn't mean you have to hold trials there. You don't hold trials in the Palace of Westminster. Hackett, a man used to the Alliance and the way it works, will know where a trial on this level would probably be held. And above all, the codex never says anywhere that Alliance trials cannot be held on Earth so there is no lore incosistency and no plot hole.

We seem to be straying off the topic of the thread here.

[Zulu_DFA]

Vanaer wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The court in the Dutch Hague is for the poor suckers who lose wars to NATO or get overthrown by NATO-backed revolts on Earth. I can't see how it can have any relevance to what happened in space to members of a race of space slavers, which is at odds with the Space NATO, due to the actions of a Space NATO (ex-[?])officer.

True, but that's arguing ceterus paribus. We don't have an unified government or military institution either now, do we?

Not sure, what you mean...

[Anacronian Stryx]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Vanaer wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The court in the Dutch Hague is for the poor suckers who lose wars to NATO or get overthrown by NATO-backed revolts on Earth. I can't see how it can have any relevance to what happened in space to members of a race of space slavers, which is at odds with the Space NATO, due to the actions of a Space NATO (ex-[?])officer.

True, but that's arguing ceterus paribus. We don't have an unified government or military institution either now, do we?

Not sure, what you mean...

I believe he means ceteris paribus.

[Almostfaceman]

What the F, did I walk into the "having the trial on Earth is lame" thread? Jeebus.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If humanity has never gone to trial for warcrimes before, they could be establishing this as they go along. Like when we selected the Hague as... well... the Hague. They may be selecting a location given weight by their particular history, in order to show their seriousness.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Besides, the GI article actually doesn't even say it's going to be a trial per se, just some kind of inquiry/interrogation (while the Alliance will be tinkering with the Normandy), which makes it even more nonsensical to have it anywhere but the Arcturus Station. Unless there is a very good reason for it, and the narrative makes it at least as much clear as the out-of-game reason: put Shepard on Earth during the Reaper invasion for the kicks of it.

To some extent, this kind of a quibble isn't something we can sort out here. It may be an inconsistency, one that nobody else sees, but that you have cleverly detected. If it is, it's one that doesn't really matter at all. It's an apartment on Intai'sei, as kids like to say around here. It's something you feel like you were promised, but that most people never even processed as a relevant fact in any way, shape or form.

You've found an inconsistency that bothers you. That's fine, I respect that. I can't watch Star Trek: Generations because of the plot holes between that and the series finale of Star Trek: TNG. (LOOK, in All Good Things we DISTINCTLY see a future 1701-D that has been retrofitted with a third Nacell. How could that happen if the ship crashes and is unsalvageable!) Fact is, most other people don't see it as such. It's like when I was reading Anansi Boys - it's stated that Anansi doesn't have any friends, because all the animals are afraid of being tricked by him... wheras in African Myth, Turtle is still Anansi's friend, because Turtle always tricks Anansi right back. It really, really bothered me that Turtle didn't appear in the novel. Then I realized that he didn't appear because it wasn't bloody important. It was Anansi's story, and it would be muddled by representing the other African trickster animal god. So, despite the fact that Turtle should have totally been in that book, I was willing to look aside, and at this point I like it more than American Gods (which has even worse plot holes, mythologically. Great story, though. Well-written.)

I don't see what an extremely minor plot issue has to do with this thread I also fail to see what Arrival has to do with any of this.

You probably won't find someone who hated Arrival more than me. I offered to pay another $7 to unplay it after it was released. I think it is honestly the worst thing that Bioware has ever made. I also think how bad it is has no bearing on what ME3 will be like, just like the design problems in BDtS and Pinnacle Station turned out not to be indicative of any bad new direction for ME2. They were offshoots, designed to test whether a certain idea was viable. That idea turned out not to be viable, so they didn't do it again.

I'd rather get back to talking about returning characters and interesting plot variations here, rather than turning it into another thread about how the trial has to be on earth, or how Arrival isn't very good. Believe me: I agree - ARRIVAL ISN'T VERY GOOD. Can we now just  never speak of it again?

Hopefully we can get back to the more interesting topic of returning characters. Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic - First day Zaeed-style DLC with every new game - good idea or bad idea? Discuss.

[Zulu_DFA]

candidate88766 wrote...

1. Hackett knows he can trust Shepard to do missions as evidenced by the 'paragon' or the 'renegade' missions in ME1 that Hackett gives you based on your profile (can't remember their names). Besides, Shepard is the one going on and on about the Reapers' return so he is the one person you can count on to give this mission the priority it deserves as it involves evidence of a Reaper invasion. He also happens to have a stealth ship (given the cost that went into it in ME1 you cannot possibly state they are 'mass-produced' as you did earlier in this thread) so is suited to this type of mission.

Costs drop sharply one you go from prototyping to mass producing. And Hackett's trust was well and good, until he was informed that you're runing цер the "avowed enemy".

candidate88766 wrote...

2. Their is no evidence to indicate that psychological or chemical torture has not been used on her yet. While pyshical torture is more productive they may not want to use it on an old woman (she looks old in game, I don't actually know her canon age) for fear of accidentally killing her.

Come on, she hasn't got eve a single bruise on her. And it's the Batarians we're talking about. And she was plotting to blow up a relay, and they knew it, and apparently though she was going to do it all by herself. Imbeciles.

candidate88766 wrote...

3. They find an artifact on an asteroid, decide the best course of action is to destroy the Relay and the most convenient way to do that is to use the asteroid they have already established a research base on. The asteroid may have already been moved a significant amount before Arrival beings. Besides, we don't know Object Rho's purpose - it could be essential in operating the Alpha Relay's enhanced capabilities. Placing the Object on a nearby asteroid should hide it whilst keeping it in range. We don't know the Object's purpose so we can't comment on whether its proximity to the Relay is by design, by the asteroid already having been moved by the researchers, or by coincidence (if it is coincidence then I can see why you call it a plot hole, but we don't know).

An artifact revealing a Reapers' plan in a system critical to the plan, on an asteroid that may be used to foil the plan. Reapers are imbeciles.

As to the idea that the asteroid could have been already moved, it would be yet another instance of "the Batarians are inept" hole: can't spot an orbit shift by a huge asteroid in their system, or don't send a team BDTS-style to stop it.

candidate88766 wrote...

4. One plot hole doesn't make it full of plot holes. And the reason she shared her plan is because characters' dialogue is the only way Bioware can tell the story to the player, and Dr Kenson was a convenient way of telling the player the Reapers' plan.

Not in-universe reason = plot hole. And there are plenty of other ways to tell the story, other than make all characters act like imbeciles. You name one of those yourself: visions. Some others include: computer consoles, eavesdropping, dei-ex-machina / cavalry arrivals, etc.

candidate88766 wrote...

5. Sedatives may have advanced hugely by the ME era. Besides, Shepard was unarmed, trapped in a sealable room with armed guards. And before you mention the mech terminal, it makes sense that people trapped inside the medical room may need to defend it.

If shepard was trapped, he wouldn't be able to get out without the outside help, as I'm sure "trapping" technics must have advenced no less than the sedatives by the ME era. Bad guy's IQs must have plunged though. I blame the videogames of the early 21st century for that.

candidate88766 wrote...

6. The codex says how the Alpha Relay can connect to up to about 16 other Relays if given enough power - it makes sense that the Reapers would arrive here and use it as an entry point to the galaxy. The game even shows them arriving at the Relay in the vision (which is another method by which Bioware can explain to the player what is going to happen - its as much for the player's benefit as is it Shepard's). The Reapers have no reason not to want to use this entry point to the galaxy. Even if they want the galaxy to be in civil war there are better ways than by destroying the massive tactical advantage given by the Alpha Relay. 

I will admit that some forshadowing of the Alpha Relay would've gone a long way though.

That's just messing up (or outright retconning) the entire part of the lore about the primary and secondary Mass Relays. The primary relays are long-range and connect star clusters but are strictly paired, while the the secondary relays are short range ut allow travel to any other secondary relay withing range (which maybe even more than 16), surving for sub-cluster travel...

In any case, since the Reapers don't need the relays to travel at all, why would they need the Alpha relay to invade the Galaxy, if they could just travel to different points they wanted to invade (including the Citadel) starting from whereever they were, and coordinate simultaneous invasion?

candidate88766 wrote...

7. Just because it has the Parliament doesn't mean you have to hold trials there. You don't hold trials in the Palace of Westminster. Hackett, a man used to the Alliance and the way it works, will know where a trial on this level would probably be held. And above all, the codex never says anywhere that Alliance trials cannot be held on Earth so there is no lore incosistency and no plot hole.

Maybe I would buy into this, if the actual out-of-game reason for having the trial (inquest) on Earth wasn't so glaring: make up another un-f*cking-believable super-coincidence to "amp things up", make 'em "personal" cue pseudo-epic music "Aaaaaaahh, ALIEN INVASION!!!"

It would work, if the Humanity hadn't already established a thriving culture on the galactic scale and possibly (also, by default storiline) made a coup and a power-grab in the nexus if the Galaxy-wide civilisation. Making Earth as the Reapers' primary target is OK, for whatever their yet untold perverted reasons are... But making plot contrivances and bending / retconning the lore to make Shepard witness it, is plain pointless. Especially since most of Earth's destruction will be conveyed via vid reports anyway.

candidate88766 wrote...

We seem to be straying off the topic of the thread here.

Since the OP stated he doesn't care about it any more, and other people fount it firn it spam it with irrelevant pics while it was on-topic, I can't see why not.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 avril 2011 - 02:42 .