51 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

The degrees of separation between Anders and Justice is rather an interesting dynamic for me. Anders himself doesn't seem to be aware of how much is Justice and how much is him.

At times, he claims that he and Justice are completely inseperable, and that there is really no "Justice"--just the splice of their thoughts to create a new being. At other times, particularly as rivals, he is able to say that he can feel Justice/Vengeance separate from himself.

One thing that bugged me a bit was that you, as the player, aren't really allowed to address this separation. It was particularly noticable during the romance--he openly says Justice doesn't like you, and considering he had previously been telling the player that Justice and he were inseparable and one in the same...that sort of seems to imply that part of him doesn't like you. It's rather disturbing, but the player only acts as if Justice is a separate consciousness in Anders' head.

What do you make of it? Creepy? Intriguing? More importantly: What if they were separated? Would Anders seem entirely different? Or was he the essential dominant personality, with the militant hatred of the Chantry being the parts Justice was limited to?

[hoorayforicecream]

Spirits (demons or not) aren't known for being totally transparent. It's entirely possible that Justice fooled Anders into thinking they are one and the same, when this isn't the case. It's open for interpretation. However attempting to separate spirits from their hosts was mentioned by Merrill and Keeper Marethari. According to the Keeper, separating them is possible, but "Even if the demon is driven out, the soul is left scarred. It can never recover. Not truly."

[Torax]

Justice is there as in they feel each other and hear the same things. He's descriptions are more inclined with not knowing how to free him of Justice. Maybe it is more unique than a general possession. Justice was transplanted directly to the real world and not the fade by the spell by the pride demon. It makes him odd and unique. Flemeth hinted at sensing them both and how he is different. Though Anders eludes at one conversation as if Justice/Vengeance could be in the fade at the same time.

I doubt Justice is the same sort of case as Wynne's spirit of faith who protects her. Wynne just senses a spirit out there some where but cannot speak to it. Justice/Vengeance communicated with others. The only other spirit of those types that I've even seen communicate with others was the warrior spirit of Valor and that was in the fade. It could just be that the writers are making things up as they go in regards to spirits, demons and so on. Let us not forget a plot regarding the soul of an old god in the body of a baby boy.

[Amondra]

It really seems like the writers couldn't make up their minds on this one, he kept telling my Hawke different things she was getting to the point she was just going to strangle the spirit out of him, or hunt Flemeth down for more cryptic dialog that hints how to fix this Anders/Justice crap -.-

[Amondra]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Spirits (demons or not) aren't known for being totally transparent. It's entirely possible that Justice fooled Anders into thinking they are one and the same, when this isn't the case. It's open for interpretation. However attempting to separate spirits from their hosts was mentioned by Merrill and Keeper Marethari. According to the Keeper, separating them is possible, but "Even if the demon is driven out, the soul is left scarred. It can never recover. Not truly."

I love your view on this matter! It isn't to hard to believe.

[Torax]

One thing supported by Merrill that appears completely true that Spirits/Demons are not cookie cutter. Anders attacks her with trying to say how all demons form to certain sins. Merrill responds that not all demons are alike. They are all individuals. Different from each other like all the differences between Anders, Hawke and Isabela, more or less. Which is a valid point. For example the sloth demon during the Magi Origin and his not wanting to freed on the pc. If all demons were evil and spiteful wouldn't he have pounced?

A demon is supposed to be some sort of evil being that wants power in the real world. They lust to be alive and live there. At first in Awakening, Justice hates being there, it feels wrong and so on. But later on he doesn't want to leave? Wouldn't that be the point where he should start to be considered a demon?

The spirit with Wynne appears to just aid her from the fade, but it also weakens the spirit to do so. Justice isn't weakened, he is physically there. He's as much of an abomination as any demon. The only main difference is he only forces control over Anders in specific cases where an abomination is a demon completely taking over the body of it's host.

[Kawamura]

Torax wrote...

One thing supported by Merrill that appears completely true that Spirits/Demons are not cookie cutter. Anders attacks her with trying to say how all demons form to certain sins. Merrill responds that not all demons are alike. They are all individuals. Different from each other like all the differences between Anders, Hawke and Isabela, more or less. Which is a valid point. For example the sloth demon during the Magi Origin and his not wanting to freed on the pc. If all demons were evil and spiteful wouldn't he have pounced?

A demon is supposed to be some sort of evil being that wants power in the real world. They lust to be alive and live there. At first in Awakening, Justice hates being there, it feels wrong and so on. But later on he doesn't want to leave? Wouldn't that be the point where he should start to be considered a demon?

The spirit with Wynne appears to just aid her from the fade, but it also weakens the spirit to do so. Justice isn't weakened, he is physically there. He's as much of an abomination as any demon. The only main difference is he only forces control over Anders in specific cases where an abomination is a demon completely taking over the body of it's host.

Merrill also says that this dichotomy that Anders talks about, the demon/spirit thing, isn't ... really all that clear. I'm kinda in her camp. We call the two different, but I always get the feeling they're very, very similar. Even more similar than Justice would like to believe.

Hence the really defensive response when Anders asks if he could become a demon in Awakening. It's like the line between a hero and a bad guy. Sure, they look like they are totes different but, when you get down to it, if there's a line between 'em, it's hella blurry.

(Hella: giving away NorCal'ers since whenever the hell it started.)

Modifié par Kawamura, 25 mars 2011 - 08:56 .

[Torax]

You're just not allowed to question it. At least they more put a gray area this time around. Though id did love Wynne's trying to understand if she herself is an abomination cause of the spirit of faith. Yet justice would never let Anders think of such a thing. Justice wanted a host. The spirit of Faith didn't want a host. It wanted a good person to keep doing good work.

Wynne didn't communicate with said spirit. Just the spirit sensed her good soul and kept watch over her all her life apparently. Wynne didn't do good things cause of the chantry. She didn't even necessarily believe in the chantry. She just did what she thought was right. The spirit of faith would just give her added power when she needed it but it comes at a price. Since it helped her when she basically died right before seeing the pc the 2nd time. Her life is tied to the spirit. Both will die together probably but one is in the fade and one is in the real world.

Justice is far more less clear about even where his supposed location is. A spirit and mage in denial about what they have both become. Justice became vengeance the second he started to think, "Damn the consequences". Isabela put it best by comparing the idea of justice to a Bar Brawl. Before you know it, everyone has joined the fray and no one knows how the fight began.

Modifié par Torax, 25 mars 2011 - 09:10 .

[Clumber]

I don't think there's really a question of whether they are just one entity or not. There is obviously a separation between Anders and Justice, which you can see in the several occasions Justice takes control, or how in the Fade, Justice comes to the forefront.

Maybe they have both been influenced by their proximity to one another and changed because of that, but even so, there is Justice (or Vengeance) and there is Anders.

[hoorayforicecream]

According to the lore from the first game, the only real difference between spirits and demons is their attitude and desires. Demons feed on the emotions of mortals. The more extreme the emotions, the happier the demon feels. This makes Anders sound more and more like he's been legitimately possessed by a spirit that very well may not be so beneficial. I know for certain that Wynne exhibited none of the extreme behaviors Anders did, and the Awakenings Anders definitely didn't exhibit many of these kinds of behaviors. We're told that it's Anders' emotions that changed the spirit of Justice into Vengeance, but one could make a pretty strong argument that it was the other way around.

[Saibh]

Yes. But there is some inconsistency. Anders contradicting himself--it's not just a matter of him not knowing the difference, sometimes he casually mentions "Justice thinks" not far after "Justice doesn't have his own thoughts".

[Punahedan]

They were two DEFINITE individuals before they first merged. That we can be sure of. The merge is a shocker and bound to change anyone, even if it's done willingly. But we can't forget that Anders changed Justice as much as Justice changed him. Sharing a body with someone makes you privy to a lot of things, including emotions. Anders' anger is part of what Justice taps into.

But also, they are privy to each others' reasoning and emotions in a way that we, as separate people, can't be, no matter how often you're together or how much sex you have or whatever. When things get that intimate (in the non-sexual sense [I assume]) and understanding occurs on such a basic level... it can be hard for Anders to tell which of his actions are from his own principles. He probably can't tell which things he does based on Justice's... manipulation of Anders' feelings and reasoning. It also means Anders probably can't always account for whose feelings are whose except when they strongly differ, a la Hawkemance.

The nature of demons vs. benevolent spirits blurs when they share bodies and their spirits get knotted (as opposed to totally merged). Wynne was an incredibly giving, kind person; we don't know what her co-habitant was like without Wynne in the picture. Justice was always a little intense in his causes, and Anders' anger probably does little to mitigate that.

As I've said elsewhere, I think the differencebetween demons and other spirits is that they inhabit bodies for their own personal needs. They ruin the minds of mages, shatter them completely. The possession is so thorough that they disfigure and mutate the mage's body, even. There's just nothing left of the old mage in an abomination. It's like kicking a resident out of his own house. Benevolent/neutral spirits seem to be willing to share so that they can achieve some ideal they believe in for what they think is good for mortals.

Whether they have the right to butt into mortal lives or not is a completely different question. And, as always, there will be the spirits that walk the line precariously or that are changed drastically by their host.

It's an interesting dynamic, to be sure.

[Torax]

Well then again you can argue that Anders and even Justice truly wouldn't know what they are. Wynne didn't truly know what she was. But unlike Anders she never probably had a chance to talk to the spirit that aided her. Anders knew him and called him a friend. Just it's not truly friendly anymore.

[hoorayforicecream]

The thing about it that gets me is that Justice holds all the cards in this situation. Sure, Anders and Justice might be entirely truthful about their situation. But Anders has no way to verify what's going on.

One thing that kind of throws me for a loop is how Anders says that there's no sense of time for a fade spirit. Everything has to be now now now. However, I recall that the desire demon that was feeding on Lady Harimann during Sebastian's act 2 quest clearly remembered the previous things that Lady Harimann had brought her (the sons and daughter), and was asking what she would bring her next. It might just be a writer slip-up, or it could be that Anders' understanding of fade spirits is simply just from an unreliable source.

[Chiramu]

It's funny when you mention to Anders in the love making scene that this is a threesome lol.

I just think Justices' thoughts are Anders' thoughts and vice versa. I'm no psychologist and mental symptoms are hard to explain, like feelings.

[Numara]

I remember a conversation with Justice in Awakening, when he says he feels the need to get revenge for those who sent kristoff to Dead... so if he is in a dead body( so no human emocions to "corrupt him") from where he gets this vengance feeling?XD duno but im starting to think he fooled Anders and hes no Justice at all and he always have been Vengance but calling himself Justice

Srry for my english duno if i explained myself correctly

[Chiramu]

Numara wrote...

I remember a conversation with Justice in Awakening, when he says he feels the need to get revenge for those who sent kristoff to Dead... so if he is in a dead body( so no human emocions to "corrupt him") from where he gets this vengance feeling?XD duno but im starting to think he fooled Anders and hes no Justice at all and he always have been Vengance but calling himself Justice

Srry for my english duno if i explained myself correctly

Justice was Justice in Awakening because he was just Justice; he went inside Anders for DA2 and Anders' emotions and thoughts corrupted Justice that turned him into Vengeance because of Anders' anger towards the templars and Circle tower.

[Numara]

Yes but Justice was capable to feel vengeance before being inside Anders, thats what i tried to said

[Saibh]

Chiramu wrote...

It's funny when you mention to Anders in the love making scene that this is a threesome lol.

I just think Justices' thoughts are Anders' thoughts and vice versa. I'm no psychologist and mental symptoms are hard to explain, like feelings.

It was funny (and I can see Anders' indignation) but it struck me as odd--as the player, I was a bit repulsed. Saying Justice didn't like me when just before he said that Justice didn't have a separate consciousness struck me as meaning...part of him doesn't like me. But the flippant way Anders says it makes me think that, yes, Justice is separate in this instance.

And I guess only right here, because in every other instance he tells me they're the same.

[griffondor]

As a mage, I'm not sure why I can't just go into the fade and have a good face to face conversation with Justice... in DA:O during your Harrowing, you come across another spirit of Justice who helps you out. And when you are trying to help Fenrial and you have Anders with you, Justice comes out and Anders is gone. A lost opportunity for a few choice words, or possibly some strategic planning (that doesn't involve blowing up the Chantry)...

I'm curious to see where the writers are going to go, story-wise, with Ander's decision to blow up the Chantry. According to the epilogue, his action is a tremendous catalyst for change all over Thedas, the consequences more epic than just the lost of innocent lives. Perhaps Justice and Anders were "meant to be" as tragic as that is.

[Saibh]

I would have loved to talk to him, but I understand why they didn't add it. Also, it was a spirit of Valor, IIRC.

[Torax]

griffondor wrote...

As a mage, I'm not sure why I can't just go into the fade and have a good face to face conversation with Justice... in DA:O during your Harrowing, you come across another spirit of Justice who helps you out. And when you are trying to help Fenrial and you have Anders with you, Justice comes out and Anders is gone. A lost opportunity for a few choice words, or possibly some strategic planning (that doesn't involve blowing up the Chantry)...

I'm curious to see where the writers are going to go, story-wise, with Ander's decision to blow up the Chantry. According to the epilogue, his action is a tremendous catalyst for change all over Thedas, the consequences more epic than just the lost of innocent lives. Perhaps Justice and Anders were "meant to be" as tragic as that is.

They're not separate even in the fade. It's Justice who is taking control there but it's anders' body. Either by a lazy design or what have you. So for example in combat besides select scripts for things like the rage demon's entrance, you'll hear anders talking saying some of his normal combat scripts. Even in the fade it's both of them. Makes me wonder if Justice can even just go back to the fade if he wanted. I dobut his greed for being in the real world would allow him to.

Modifié par Torax, 25 mars 2011 - 11:13 .

[Lord_Valandil]

You know, I liked Anders and Justice in Awakening.
In DA2...not so much, maybe I'll kill him. As for the inconsistency...the whole plot is kinda messy, so I wouldn't try too hard to understand it.

[Asdara]

I don't think we saw enough Justice from Anders - and what we did see was the Vengeance diatribes that he does when he has a hissy fit.

Now, if that's all that's left of Justice thanks to their merger, then fine, but let us see him and talk to him - especially if we are intimate with Anders... because it's bound to happen sometime in how many years that we come home from a day's adventuring and Anders has had a bad day at the clinic and let Justice out to play accidentally and boom - we walk into broken dishes. Or something less ridiculous, but the point stands.

I did like that Anders was more serious; it made sense that his personality from Awakenings was more of a front over some deep broody cause that one might use around the Hero of Ferelden. Pair that up with taking in Justice, who was always on the pondering and vaguely ominous observations and I think what we get in DA2 is pretty on the mark. Justice's personal quest springs to mind what with the killing people for "justice" - or revenge posing as justice, however you take it. What did Anders want? To be free, and he failed spectacularly when he bound himself to Justice - I can see where he'd lose his sense of humor.

Still, I do wish that something of Justice will be revealed in combination with Anders so we have some snowball's chance in hell of understanding what has transpired with the man. DLC might be viable there as an add-on like they did with Leliana (didn't play that though - /shame - I have some catching up with DA:O to do after being away). I'm not sure I'd want to play AS him, though. I feel like what was written there was probably written for specific reasons and being able to toy with it might break the whole illusion.

[Chiramu]

Numara wrote...

Yes but Justice was capable to feel vengeance before being inside Anders, thats what i tried to said

Justice was capable of feeling nothing but justice UNTIL he went inside Anders.
He was the spirit of Justice, he was the embodiment of justice. So he felt nothing else but justice.