51 réponses à ce sujet

[sassperella]

Chiramu wrote...

Numara wrote...

Yes but Justice was capable to feel vengeance before being inside Anders, thats what i tried to said

Justice was capable of feeling nothing but justice UNTIL he went inside Anders.
He was the spirit of Justice, he was the embodiment of justice. So he felt nothing else but justice.

Not true. He admits in a conversation to the warden he feels envy at Kristoff's love he shared with aura and goes on to say but only demons feel envy.   He also uses the words avenged and vengeance a few times in Awakening. He still feels some of Kristoff's emotions and I also believe the corruption began before he joined with Anders.

[Hellosanta]

As soon as Justice stepped in to the mortal world, he's no longer that of spirit. I assume that being trapped in human body in the human world have changed Justice ... to become more demon-ish creature.
Justice and Anders's relation is totally different from that of Wynne's. Anders is certainly possessed, and he's more like an abomination (this implies that he's in no less dangerous position than Merrill). I have done the rival-mance with Anders. At the last questioning belief after the Justice quest, Justice shows up in the middle of conversation. Anders doesn't remember that Justice has shown up after the conversation between Justice and Hawke and says that he's getting the blank of memory more often these days.

[highcastle]

Personally, I think Anders isn't being quite honest--even with himself--when he says he and Justice are one. When you take him into the Fade, after all, it's Justice you encounter. Anders is nowhere to be seen. This is interesting since even in Origins, Wynne is still Wynne in the Fade. I get the idea that both Anders and Justice are dominant personalities, and they haven't so much merged as battle for control. But this is just my interpretation.

[SurelyForth]

highcastle wrote...

Personally, I think Anders isn't being quite honest--even with himself--when he says he and Justice are one. When you take him into the Fade, after all, it's Justice you encounter. Anders is nowhere to be seen. This is interesting since even in Origins, Wynne is still Wynne in the Fade. I get the idea that both Anders and Justice are dominant personalities, and they haven't so much merged as battle for control. But this is just my interpretation.

Anders does show up in the Fade, if Fenris turns on Hawke and Hawke takes the aggressive response option. 

So it is all about dominant personalities and it seems that who is dominant depends on whose home turf you're on. 

[Maria Caliban]

1. I don't think Justice is an individual.
2. I think Justice could lead Anders at any time and return to the Fade. He simply chooses not to.

[Sarah1281]

Chiramu wrote...

Numara wrote...

Yes but Justice was capable to feel vengeance before being inside Anders, thats what i tried to said

Justice was capable of feeling nothing but justice UNTIL he went inside Anders.
He was the spirit of Justice, he was the embodiment of justice. So he felt nothing else but justice.

You realize he wasn't literally an embodiment of Justice, right? During the 'what shall we call you' conversation, he explains that justice is the virtue that he holds dearest and what he spends his existence seeking to model. It's a choice on his part based on what he valued not anything he actually is. I also think one of the reasons that he turned more vengeful and even had the beginnings of that in Awakening was because in the world of Thedas so often does justice and vengeance become intertwined.

Quentin, for instance. Was killing him justice or vengeance? He couldn't have been allowed to live given that he was a powerful blood mage and an unrepetent and seriously disturbed serial killer. It was either death or tranquility, frankly. Just the same, he brutally murdered your mother and I doubt that anyone could be impartial about that.

[Verasas]

From what I can gather that fade and spirits are the first creation of the Maker. They simply didn't do what the maker wanted. His second creation was the humanoid and the real world separated by the veil.

With the creation of humanoids it seems spirits embodied ideals good and bad of the real world peoples. Those who formed the bad side typically are jealous of the real world and want to be inside it. Thus possess those who touch the fade, mages (DA:O at least since anyone can go now). They also feed off the human states of minds like desire, greed etc. Those are what they call demons. I wouldn't be surprised if the same isn't true of other spirits feeding off valor and justice but their "good" one minded beliefs prevent them from having the desire to possess humans.

I think all spirits started out the same in a general sense but were altered by the dreams of people and mages. They were drawn whatever passion like moth to a light and changed to whatever kind of spirit/demon. I think Justice proves this point. While having no desire possess humans, he's ripped into the real world and becomes demon of sorts because there is no real difference except which ever path the spirit is drawn down.

First in Kirstoff he seems to be feeding off memories that only demons feed on like envy, desire, rage etc. Justice isn't evil. His inability to exact justice and inside Anders with Anders anger at his particular person injustice, he's gone ape ****. The reason he doesn't look like other abominations(though seems as some can hide it) his because of the nature of the Justice isn't evil and he's not fully possessing Anders, just co-habituating.

The questions I have are this though. Why does a demon need humans so badly? Seems that it's easy for non-possessed humans to summon demons. Since every possessed or blood mage has an army of shades and demons.

But why not summon good spirits in turn for good mages?

[Sarah1281]

The questions I have are this though. Why does a demon need humans so badly? Seems that it's easy for non-possessed humans to summon demons. Since every possessed or blood mage has an army of shades and demons.

Well, the spirits who don't already have desire to go to the mortal world DON'T want to go to the mortal world. It's probably easier to summon something willing. I think Justice shows that spirits can't really understand or deal with the complexities of the mortal world. Justice saw things as black and white, just and unjust and things like the motivations behind 'unjust' acts were completely lost on him. I doubt many of us would condemn Nathaniel for breaking into his old home and taking back his family possessions. To Justice, this was still wrong and needs to be atoned for. Justice also doesn't seem to have any concept of patience or knowing when a bad time to challenge those commiting injustices is.

If you send a 'good' spirit into the mortal world then you'll just end up corrupting them.

[dragonflight288]

Justice was capable of feeling nothing but justice UNTIL he went inside Anders.
He was the spirit of Justice, he was the embodiment of justice. So he felt nothing else but justice.

Not necessarily. I just finished Awakening, and near the end, while talking to Justice I found that when he first entered the mortal world, all he felt and thought about was Justice. But dealing with Christoph's widow, he later admits that he has been absorbing some of Christoph's memories and found himself envious of what they had together. He began to love the mortal world and all its colors. Justice was still the forefront of his mind, but he was obviously feeling and thinking about other things not related.

[Maria Caliban]

Verasas wrote...

Why does a demon need humans so badly?

If you asked the Chantry, they'd say it's because demons are jealous of mortals. Merrill seems to suggest that any spirit would happily jump into a person's head and stay there.

The Sloth demon in Fenrdyal's dream states something similar. "We are drawn to the mortal realm to merge with a living soul."

Interestingly, the sloth demon does not indicate that he'd like to hang out in the mortal realm. Only that he wants to merge with a powerful living soul. (He could be lying, of course.) And he uses 'drawn,' which suggests a compulsion.

[Herr Uhl]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Verasas wrote...

Why does a demon need humans so badly?

If you asked the Chantry, they'd say it's because demons are jealous of mortals. Merrill seems to suggest that any spirit would happily jump into a person's head and stay there.

But on the flipside of what Merril says, Justice says that spirits (non-demonic) have no interest in mortals at all. I'd take his word over Merril's.

[Maria Caliban]

Wasn't Valor in the Mage Origin interested in mortals? Not interested in bonding with one but he hang out where mortals passed through so he could challenge them.

[Herr Uhl]

He wasn't interested in mortals as such, just that you happened to be there I think. Thus he acknowledges you like any other spirit.

[ipgd]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Verasas wrote...

Why does a demon need humans so badly?

If you asked the Chantry, they'd say it's because demons are jealous of mortals. Merrill seems to suggest that any spirit would happily jump into a person's head and stay there.

But on the flipside of what Merril says, Justice says that spirits (non-demonic) have no interest in mortals at all. I'd take his word over Merril's.

Spirits seem to be individuals just like any person, and there are obvious examples where spirits do take interest in mortals (Wynne's spirit, and hell, himself eventually). I doubt he accurately speaks for all spirits.

[Saibh]

Herr Uhl wrote...

He wasn't interested in mortals as such, just that you happened to be there I think. Thus he acknowledges you like any other spirit.

Indeed, but he even wants to test you. It just seemed...odd. Maybe he tests everyone, I don't know.

In any case, I'm not sure if I believe Merrill's word over anyone else's. It's interesting, because we so rarely hear about different perspectives than the Chantry's version, but she's also not the leading expert on demons, and it's hard to take her seriously, seeing as where her personal quests go.

[Punahedan]

Saibh wrote...

In any case, I'm not sure if I believe Merrill's word over anyone else's. It's interesting, because we so rarely hear about different perspectives than the Chantry's version, but she's also not the leading expert on demons, and it's hard to take her seriously, seeing as where her personal quests go.

Pretty much. Just because it goes against what the Chantry says doesn't make it instantly right.

I do think there's a distinction between a demon and a spirit. But I do find it interesting when Anders tries to argue with Merrill and sort of falls into the trap of repeating what the Chantry tells mages, even as he rejects Chantry teachings otherwise.

[hoorayforicecream]

Verasas wrote...

First in Kirstoff he seems to be feeding off memories that only demons feed on like envy, desire, rage etc. Justice isn't evil. His inability to exact justice and inside Anders with Anders anger at his particular person injustice, he's gone ape ****. The reason he doesn't look like other abominations(though seems as some can hide it) his because of the nature of the Justice isn't evil and he's not fully possessing Anders, just co-habituating.

The questions I have are this though. Why does a demon need humans so badly? Seems that it's easy for non-possessed humans to summon demons. Since every possessed or blood mage has an army of shades and demons.

Demons feed on humans emotion. If you did Sebastian's act 2 quest, you meet a desire demon that's been feeding on Lady Harimann for quite a while. Similarly, I remember another desire demon in DA:O's mage tower that had latched on to a templar, and wanted to be left alone because she had attached to him and wanted to continue feeding on him.

I'm honestly not sure Justice is as benevolent as Anders makes him out to be.

But why not summon good spirits in turn for good mages?

As Merrill said:  There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was.
All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't.


Also: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human.

[Maria Caliban]

Saibh wrote...

In any case, I'm not sure if I believe Merrill's word over anyone else's.

Nor would I. Her perspective is one of a First taught to see all spirits as a potential threat. It emphasizes practicality over possible metaphysical differences.

At the same time, I see her perspective as better than that of the Chantry, where demons are evil and spirits are good. And evidently better than that of the Circle where Anders was taught as it seems to teach the Chantry approved concept of spirits.

Saibh wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

He wasn't interested in mortals as such, just that you happened to be there I think. Thus he acknowledges you like any other spirit.

Indeed, but he even wants to test you. It just seemed...odd. Maybe he tests everyone, I don't know.

I see Valor in the mage origin as being more interested in the Sloth you encounter. It just wanted to be left alone until you started bothering it.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[Saibh]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Saibh wrote...

In any case, I'm not sure if I believe Merrill's word over anyone else's.

Nor would I. Her perspective is one of a First taught to see all spirits as a potential threat. It emphasizes practicality over possible metaphysical differences.

At the same time, I see her perspective as better than that of the Chantry, where demons are evil and spirits are good. And evidently better than that of the Circle where Anders was taught as it seems to teach the Chantry approved concept of spirits.

Yes. I believe there is no such thing as a good spirit--after all, a so-called good spirit was corrupted, wasn't he? But I don't believe the spirits and demons are interchangable. I think there is some sort of tangible difference between what makes a spirit a spirit and a demon a demon. Perhaps their interest in the mortal world. But I don't think it comes down to our own morality.

I'm actually under the opinion Vengence isn't a demon. He doesn't precisely seek to control. But until I see a similar spirit outside of the influence of a human, it's hard to say.

[mesmerizedish]

Saibh wrote...

Yes. I believe there is no such thing as a good spirit--after all, a so-called good spirit was corrupted, wasn't he? But I don't believe the spirits and demons are interchangable. I think there is some sort of tangible difference between what makes a spirit a spirit and a demon a demon. Perhaps their interest in the mortal world. But I don't think it comes down to our own morality.

I'm actually under the opinion Vengence isn't a demon. He doesn't precisely seek to control. But until I see a similar spirit outside of the influence of a human, it's hard to say.

Hi Saibh! Haven't seen you in a while!

I agree that there's a difference between a "demon" and a "spirit," but I think that's just because the Chantry has invented the term "demon" and defines it in such a way as to exclude a subset of Fade entities.

I hope no one accuses me of sexism for the following analogy: it's as if someone took humans and said that men are demons and women are spirits. Well, yes, they're different. But only because you've defined the term to make them different. In the end, what matters is that they're humans (or Fade entities).

[PlumPaul93]

he's an abomonation and theres only one way to deal with those...

[Saibh]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Hi Saibh! Haven't seen you in a while!

I agree that there's a difference between a "demon" and a "spirit," but I think that's just because the Chantry has invented the term "demon" and defines it in such a way as to exclude a subset of Fade entities.

I hope no one accuses me of sexism for the following analogy: it's as if someone took humans and said that men are demons and women are spirits. Well, yes, they're different. But only because you've defined the term to make them different. In the end, what matters is that they're humans (or Fade entities).

Pfft, I've been hiding from the trolls. It's not so bad in this forum.

Hm. That's a good analogy. There are inherent, unchangable differences, but many of them can be overcome depending on your situation, your lifestyle, and choice.

[The Cannibal Factory]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Verasas wrote...

Why does a demon need humans so badly?

If you asked the Chantry, they'd say it's because demons are jealous of mortals. Merrill seems to suggest that any spirit would happily jump into a person's head and stay there.

The Sloth demon in Fenrdyal's dream states something similar. "We are drawn to the mortal realm to merge with a living soul."

Interestingly, the sloth demon does not indicate that he'd like to hang out in the mortal realm. Only that he wants to merge with a powerful living soul. (He could be lying, of course.) And he uses 'drawn,' which suggests a compulsion.

I get the sense that spirits/demons of the Fade are drawn to humans in the same way that darkspawn are drawn to Old Gods. It's a compulsive thing. But the important difference is that spirits hold the mortal realm in contempt for its chaos (which is why Justice was so surprised by the beauty and emotion he found when he arrived) while demons covet it.

I also have a theory that, before Andraste and the Chantry, EVERYONE had magic of a sort. It was natural. And everyone was probably connecting with spirits and demons and all kinds of things as a matter of course (in a Wynne sense, not like Justice - who is a unique case).

Anyway, this thread is interesting as a discussion point. I wish so hard that we could have spoken with Justice when visiting the Fade. Surely it must have been a big experience for him, since Anders has been "avoiding" it. I spent the whole game desperate to learn about the dividing lines between them, and to interact with Justice more. Very disappointing it was handled in such a contradictory and vague manner all the way through.

[Torax]

In then end they are all spirits. The Chantry basically defines them all as if they embody a trait of a person. Spirits being the nicer traits. Demons tied to the sins. The writers seem to follow this path as well in how they describe and apply them.

Justice is an interesting one though. Justice is blind. That part should be true but the spirit Justice is no longer blind. That is when he became Vengeance. To the point of killing people who didn't even do anything simply because of what he thinks will happen.

A spirit of faith could actually be even more unique and almost makes sense that it would not be seen ever and only sensed.

The spirit of Valor was there and simply was willing weapons to be if the demons approached him. When the mage talks to the spirit, it's obvious that Valor is only interested in people testing their strength in fair combat. What is amusing is his anger when accused of being a demon. He was offended by the idea.

The Sloth demons had differences in how the Sloth in the magi origin had no interest in feeding on the meal before him. Where other sloth demons are interested. There was one desire demon that was already content with the one templar she had in her symbiotic relationship. She didn't even want to possess his body. She just wanted to be near him.

In the end a demon is a fade spirit. But like all the spirits they appear to gravitate to a aspect of the dreamers. It seems that just the difference between a demon and a spirit is if it's beneficial to be honest. One interesting side note. Supposedly a demon cannot go back on a contract/deal they have made. But you have to be very specific on the on the deal you make with them. I'm not sure how often spirits make deals with humans compared to demons.

[Autodoll]

I always got the feeling that Justice/Vengeance was kind of like that voice in the back of one's head urging you against kicking puppies. He/it is a part of Anders, but Anders doesn't necessarily have to listen. Justice just gets more persistent and determined, making Anders feel... Guilty? (Is that the right term?)

My friend and I were discussing something along these lines: Justice, when possessing Kristoff, never needed to eat or sleep. How confused must he/it have been when Anders got tired or hungry, having never experienced that before? Or even the whole romance thing - Justice already said in Awakening that he/it didn't know about human relations ("You are alluding to something, I know not what"). So, the whole romance thing with Anders must have been super awkward for them, right? I'm just adding questions for further discussion, my apologies if this is too far off-topic.