42 réponses à ce sujet

[merik3000]

I agree with 3SG Sage  to a certain extent as I used to only enjoy nice games and fantasy books with happy endings but found that as I got older they got much more boring and airy fairy

My problem with DAII is that Hawke is an unnecessary character who wields no real power in my mind. The so called 2 endings I found were completely the same. I don't mind that the templar-mage conflict was hard coded as the system was clearly full of flaws and corruption so It was bound to happen anyway whether or not your character did anything to change things.
I don't mind dark games but I feel that DAII is kinda half arsed with it's dark theme as despite all the chatter from the devs that this was not a "beat the ultimate evil" game what we got in act 3 was 2 interesting characters going mental and turning into big bad evil bosses....
A game I think got the dark theme correct with player choice in the equation is the Witcher which gave 3 distinct endings that were not happy endings but in which I got to choose the neutral path of helping save civilians from 2 crazy religious/cultural sides. Finally my biggest gripe is no epilogue slides as apparently they weren't needed as thanks to the frame narrative we got to see all the changes in Kirkwall.... Oh right THERE WERE NO CHANGES:( Rant Ended:whistle:

[Silveryne]

Your problem is right there in your post when you say "heroic fantasy".

This is dark fantasy and has always been billed as such. If you want a heroic fantasy, there are many games that cater to your interest.

I would advise avoiding that "Hype: Time Quest" game, though. Poor graphics always mean everything else about a game is poor m i rite. This is why BG and Planescape Torment were awesome games, what, a decade and a half ago-ish, but now they are HORRIBLE.

[Medhia Nox]

DA: 2 isn't dark fantasy - it's misery porn.

[MKDAWUSS]

Medhia Nox wrote...

DA: 2 isn't dark fantasy - it's misery porn.

I was thinking more like an acid trip.

[MKDAWUSS]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

As if Origins wasn't filled with misery and suffering from the very beginning? It might just be rose colored glasses, but you're probably expecting the wrong thing from Dragon Age games. They were dark from the start. ASOIAF was stated to be an inspiration, iirc.

Origins was a bit more balanced in that respect, not to mention a bit more developed. It had its happy moments and it had its tragic moments (and it had a couple of cop-outs, but that's another issue entirely).

To me, DA2 never really felt "dark" - maybe it was sanitized by fantastic elements or I was just too busy shaking my head at the direction of the storyline (like "it could have gone so much better [not so much from a character POV, but a critic POV]"). Not to mention that the game never really lets you fail - you often ended up rewarded in the end for the screwups you were railroaded into.

[Arppis]

Sidney wrote...

WJC3688 wrote...

Also, am I the only one who finds it ironic that this game was supposed to appeal to a wider audience, but chose a more complicated story with strong political undertones over Origins's typical "defeat invading army of doom?"  You'd think they would've kept the kind of story that people are more familiar with for a game designed to have mass appeal.

That's very true. DAO is the baby food of fantasy storylines in terms of being easy to digest.

I think where they'll lose folks is in Act I where there's not enough momentum pushing the story forwards. Yes I need money to go to the Deep Roads but why exactly is it I need to go to the Deep Roads? I felt like that connection wasn't as clear. BG2 had the same basic premise - gather money - but the motivation of freeing Imoen was a lot more prominent feeling.

It was basicaly same reason. Protect yourself or your sister from templars by gaining status. I thought it was pretty clear from the start! 

[Bekalynn]

I agree with 3SG Sage.  I play fantasy RPGs with magic and swords, etc., because I want to escape reality for awhile, not steep myself in it.  I get more than enough "real life" in real life.  I don't want my game to be a metaphor or an allegory or a symbolic representation of the world I live in.  I want to feel that the good guys can and do win if I play the game well, because so often in real life the good guys don't.  I want to feel that one man or woman can positively change the world, I guess. 

There's nothing wrong with dark fantasy that doesn't have a happy ending.  But...warn me if that's what I'm getting!   I'll probably still play the game and not feel let down by it the same way I reread  Lord of the Rings while hating the ending.  Dragon Age 2 had a good storyline and I liked the way it's told in flashbacks.  The graphics were impressive and I really enjoyed the way the protagonist could interact with the people and world around him/her.  The writing was excellent.  But the game should have been marketed in such a way that people knew what they were getting.  I feel cheated of a happy ending and a little angry at Bioware for misleading me.

[LittleDoggie]

I completely agree with the OP when I got to merrils quest where the keeper died and then her whole village ... any hope or redeeming value to playing the game was stripped away. Way too depressing of a story.

After some thought I unistalled the game. If mass effect 3 follows this new trend of stripping away all hope I'm done with bioware for good.

[LittleDoggie]

Medhia Nox wrote...

DA: 2 isn't dark fantasy - it's misery porn.

/signed.

[Sharn01]

You guys do know you dont have to kill the dalish clan right? If you tell them you will take responsibility for Merrill they will let you leave, yeah, it was one of those examples where the dialogue wheel did a horrible job presenting what you would say, but I feel thats a legitimate instance for a reload.

[TeamRyan]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@TeamRyan - actually, no you don't. The bartender tells you: "Everyone and their mother is trying to get on that deep roads expedition." As for Varric surviving the Deep Roads - he wouldn't have gone off alone with Hawke, if Hawke wasn't there. He would be standing right next to his brother Bartrand the whole time... and would have put a crossbow bolt between the eyes before Bartrand could betray him.

Act 2: You can do nothing to alter the outcome in any fashion, it's just "Go through the motions until Arishok is pissed."... your mabari could have just run up to the Arishok and pissed on his leg for the same result Hawke can achieve (and much faster too).

Act 3: Well... at least we both agree Hawke is useless in this act.

So if Varric puts a bolt between Bartrands eye's does the lyrium idol still make it to Meredith? Probably not. While any choice the player makes may not directly affect this Hawke not being there definitely has an affect on the outcome of the deep roads quest and where the lyrium idol ends up.

As far as the Arishok is concerned I'm not arguing that Hawke could have stopped his attack or even delayed it. What I am saying is that the character of Hawke had a positive result in that battle, if Hawke weren't there would Meredith and Orsino been able to put thier differences aside to even make it to the keep? Were any of them even capable of defeating the Arishok?

Secondly there are a number of ways you can handle the outcome of your encounter with the Arishok, you can choose to slaughter him and his Qunari, you can fight him in a duel and the Qunari will be released from his mission and leave with no further bloodshed, or you can send Isabela packing with the Tome of Koslun. Those are definately choices and while they may not shape the world directly they definately shape who Hawke is as a person.

If you are arguing that the player doesn't have a choice in becoming champion or going to the deep roads then you are right, although I don't see how you can have a problem with the plot moving forward?

Saying Hawke's presence or character doesn't have an affect on the other hand though is just blatantly wrong. 

[Slithermorph]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

It tells you something about the Great Man theory of history, doesn't it? Historians question what role, if any, Napoleon truly had in shaping the 19th century or whether events were driven by circumstances--and HE has an entire page of history named after him!

Seems to me that the Bioware writers have a thing for this kind of story.  Look at ME2.  Right from the beginning we're told that Shepard, our protagonist, is JUST a man but must be kept alive at all costs because he's a symbol to the people.  And from the look of things in the ME3 teaser, his actions have done little to nothing to help anyone.  Cerberus just wanted him back to be a poster boy for the human race.  DA2 ends by telling us much the same thing.  Hawke was JUST a man, who really didn't do much of anything.  But the Chantry wants him and/or The Warden to be their new poster boy to help restore order to the world.

[ShrinkingFish]

To the OP... and anyone else who shares his opinion for that matter:

There are plenty of games that are exactly what you're looking for. However, there are not nearly as many games like this. It is incredibly one sided and I do believe that you are in the majority. Most common people hate stories that parallel real world sufferings and issues. And some, like myself, hate stories that ignore reality. Personally I feel the reality of the story enriches the experience.

But, in the end, there is no accounting for taste.

[Nerevar-as]

Slithermorph wrote...

Seems to me that the Bioware writers have a thing for this kind of story.  Look at ME2.  Right from the beginning we're told that Shepard, our protagonist, is JUST a man but must be kept alive at all costs because he's a symbol to the people.  And from the look of things in the ME3 teaser, his actions have done little to nothing to help anyone.  Cerberus just wanted him back to be a poster boy for the human race.  DA2 ends by telling us much the same thing.  Hawke was JUST a man, who really didn't do much of anything.  But the Chantry wants him and/or The Warden to be their new poster boy to help restore order to the world.

However by ME3 it is possible Krogan and Rachni will follow Shepard thanks to the events of ME1. Shepard can´t prevent the Reaper arrival (anyone expected so?), but can be key to stopping them. Hawke can´t prevent the mage -templar uprising (and I find hard to believe that happened because of Anders and both heads of KW going nuts) and I just don´t see why mages/templars would give a damn about Hawke talking to them. If anything, the narration proves the opposite. Cassandra thought Hawke would be a mastermind and found s/he was mostly an accidental witness.

[Naughty Bear]

I love stories that are dark stories such as this.

I prefer the chance of 'reality' sticking it's ugly nose in. Nothing is going to go right or according to your plan.

[Medhia Nox]

This story was about as dark as the Goth kids in high school who wore black velvet, painted their nails, and wrote poetry about pain and death.

[Lord Gremlin]

Medhia Nox wrote...

This story was about as dark as the Goth kids in high school who wore black velvet, painted their nails, and wrote poetry about pain and death.

If that means the story being diminished my stupidity at certain points... Then yes...

[GodWood]

Naughty Bear wrote...
I love stories that are dark stories such as this.

I prefer the chance of 'reality' sticking it's ugly nose in. Nothing is going to go right or according to your plan.

Pretty much this.

Sure having my brother die straight away, than having my sister die of the taint, than having the woman my character loved (Aveline) completely shut him down and run away with another man than to top it off having my mother slaughtered by some crazy blood mage was bad and all for Hawke.
But it sure as hell made a fun first playthrough for me.